{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/xg9f47hq2s/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Ameling, Ann, 2008 June 27"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Ameling, Ann, 2008 June 27. Oral Histories Documenting Yale University Women (RU 1051). Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library.\n\n https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/resources/2559."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/801854"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["mssa.ru.1051 (EAD ID)","RU 1051 (Call Number)","ru_1051_2012-a-036_ameling_ann_audiorecording.mp3 (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2008 June 27 (Creation)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Permission to cite or quote must be obtained from the interviewee until January 1, 2028. (Userestrict)","The materials are open for research. (Accessrestrict)","Ann Tomaino Ameling was born in 1941 and grew up in Danbury, Connecticut.  She was the only child of an Italian-American father who won a scholarship to Yale College (Class ’25).  He subsequently trained at Yale Medical School.  Her mother was a nurse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, who gave up her job upon marriage.  In 1962 Ameling graduated from Smith College, with a major in psychology.  Her family discouraged her from following her father’s profession, and she rejected the academic life because she saw that very few women attained tenure at that time. So Ameling opted for a career in nursing. Having earned a nursing degree from the Columbia University School of Nursing, she then worked at the Payne Whitney Psychiatric Institute at the Cornell Medical Center, New York.  In 1965 Ameling entered Yale School of Nursing to take a Master of Science degree in Nursing, specializing in psychiatric nursing.  \n\nImmediately following her graduation in 1967 Ameling joined the faculty at the Yale School of Nursing as a lecturer.  She was an assistant professor 1970-1976, associate professor from 1976-1985, and tenured in 1984.  During this time she was one of the first nursing school faculty (apart from deans) to become a fellow at a Yale residential college.  Subsequently Ameling spent a semester as Acting Master at Berkeley College, and then was appointed Master of Saybrook College, serving 1985-1990.  She joined Yale’s central administration in 1989 as Associate Provost in charge of the School of Nursing, the School of Music, the Divinity School, the School of Forestry, the Center for British Art, the Yale Art Gallery, the residential colleges, and a number of academic departments including Classics, Religious Studies, Judaic and Near Eastern Studies.  After more than a decade in Yale University’s central administration, she returned to full-time teaching at the Nursing School.  During this time she devoted much of her time to curriculum development, developing alternative and complementary therapies and end-of-life care as part of a multi-disciplinary Spirituality and Health curriculum. These innovations were funded by a grant from the Templeton Foundation and were taught in the Medical and Divinity Schools as well as in the Nursing School.  After her retirement in 2003, Ameling returned to Yale as a student, this time at the Divinity School, to train as a United Church of Christ minister.\n\nIn the early part of her career at the Yale nursing school, she worked extensively in the area of chronic psychiatric illness, and was the Principal Investigator on one of the first funded research projects evaluating psychiatric nursing care with the chronically ill psychiatric outpatient population (United States Psychiatric Health Service, 1970-1975).  Ameling is the author of many articles on chronic psychiatric illness.  Her 1982 book (with Yale colleague Judith Krauss), The Chronically Ill Psychiatric Outpatient in the Community, was named The American Journal of Nursing Book of the Year. She also has written a number of articles on spirituality and healing. (Bioghist)","Ann Ameling talks at length about her family background, particularly her childhood memories of Yale and her undergraduate experiences at Smith College, with special emphasis on its social culture. She recalls her early studies in nursing at Columbia University, her growing awareness of gender issues in medicine (especially obstetrics), and her subsequent experiences as a psychiatric nurse at the Payne Whitney Psychiatric Institute. The reasons why she chose Yale School of Nursing for her graduate work are then discussed, followed by an account of her experience of the Nursing School, first as a graduate student and then as a young faculty member.  The school’s internal culture is described, with reference to such issues as gender, sexism, and relationships between faculty and students. Its problematic external relations with the wider Yale community, especially with the Medical School, are addressed. Ameling also talks about the unique place of the school at Yale as a locus for high-achieving women and about the women on its faculty who became her role models or mentors, such as Florence Wald, Rita Dumas, Rachel Robinson, Margaret Arnstein and Donna Diers. \n\nAmeling recalls her early experiences in the Berkeley College fellowship, how gradually she became involved in university administration, and the role diversity initiatives played in providing opportunities for her advancement.  An account is given of the difficulties she experienced, both as a woman and as a member of the Nursing School, in chairing her first university committee. Looking back on her time as Acting Master at Berkeley and Master of Saybrook, she describes the challenges of these positions, and the extent to which her gender complicated them.  Her time in Yale’s central administration, which culminated in her seven years as associate provost, is then discussed. She recalls her relationships with Provosts Frank Turner, Judith Rodin and Alison Richard, as well as gender and power relations within the Provost’s Office. Ameling outlines the pressures involved in managing her diverse responsibilities, especially at a time of economic stringency, and the battle to prevent the closure of the Nursing and Divinity schools. She describes the evolution of Yale’s retirement and maternity policies, explaining her role in the implementation of the Yale family leave policy and domestic partner benefit plan, the ways in which being a woman influenced her position on these issues, and her own maternity and childcare arrangements.  The role gender played in the development of her management style, and the nature of her own feminist sensibility, are covered. Ameling discusses how salary inequities, the abolition of mandatory retirement, and Yale’s tenure system, affected younger faculty, particularly women. In this context she talks about her commitment to the mentoring of young faculty and administrators.  \n\nAmeling then explains why she left the central administration, giving an account of the personal costs she believed she incurred, and identifying what she regards as her greatest achievements as assistant provost.  Next she turns to her second period on the YSN faculty and her struggle to find a new direction in her scholarship and teaching.  Finally, she talks about her decision to become a student at the Yale Divinity School (including her experience of being a student again), and shares her views on the current situation of women in the academy and changing perceptions of the role of the university in society. (Scope and Content Note)","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;d981f7bd-f9c9-4ca4-9190-1c80c2bedb41 (Other Finding Aid Note)","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software. (Processinfo)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Permission to cite or quote must be obtained from the interviewee until January 1, 2028.","The materials are open for research.","Ann Tomaino Ameling was born in 1941 and grew up in Danbury, Connecticut.  She was the only child of an Italian-American father who won a scholarship to Yale College (Class ’25).  He subsequently trained at Yale Medical School.  Her mother was a nurse at Yale-New Haven Hospital, who gave up her job upon marriage.  In 1962 Ameling graduated from Smith College, with a major in psychology.  Her family discouraged her from following her father’s profession, and she rejected the academic life because she saw that very few women attained tenure at that time. So Ameling opted for a career in nursing. Having earned a nursing degree from the Columbia University School of Nursing, she then worked at the Payne Whitney Psychiatric Institute at the Cornell Medical Center, New York.  In 1965 Ameling entered Yale School of Nursing to take a Master of Science degree in Nursing, specializing in psychiatric nursing.  \n\nImmediately following her graduation in 1967 Ameling joined the faculty at the Yale School of Nursing as a lecturer.  She was an assistant professor 1970-1976, associate professor from 1976-1985, and tenured in 1984.  During this time she was one of the first nursing school faculty (apart from deans) to become a fellow at a Yale residential college.  Subsequently Ameling spent a semester as Acting Master at Berkeley College, and then was appointed Master of Saybrook College, serving 1985-1990.  She joined Yale’s central administration in 1989 as Associate Provost in charge of the School of Nursing, the School of Music, the Divinity School, the School of Forestry, the Center for British Art, the Yale Art Gallery, the residential colleges, and a number of academic departments including Classics, Religious Studies, Judaic and Near Eastern Studies.  After more than a decade in Yale University’s central administration, she returned to full-time teaching at the Nursing School.  During this time she devoted much of her time to curriculum development, developing alternative and complementary therapies and end-of-life care as part of a multi-disciplinary Spirituality and Health curriculum. These innovations were funded by a grant from the Templeton Foundation and were taught in the Medical and Divinity Schools as well as in the Nursing School.  After her retirement in 2003, Ameling returned to Yale as a student, this time at the Divinity School, to train as a United Church of Christ minister.\n\nIn the early part of her career at the Yale nursing school, she worked extensively in the area of chronic psychiatric illness, and was the Principal Investigator on one of the first funded research projects evaluating psychiatric nursing care with the chronically ill psychiatric outpatient population (United States Psychiatric Health Service, 1970-1975).  Ameling is the author of many articles on chronic psychiatric illness.  Her 1982 book (with Yale colleague Judith Krauss), \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eThe Chronically Ill Psychiatric Outpatient in the Community\u003c/title\u003e, was named \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eThe American Journal of Nursing\u003c/title\u003e Book of the Year. She also has written a number of articles on spirituality and healing.","Ann Ameling talks at length about her family background, particularly her childhood memories of Yale and her undergraduate experiences at Smith College, with special emphasis on its social culture. She recalls her early studies in nursing at Columbia University, her growing awareness of gender issues in medicine (especially obstetrics), and her subsequent experiences as a psychiatric nurse at the Payne Whitney Psychiatric Institute. The reasons why she chose Yale School of Nursing for her graduate work are then discussed, followed by an account of her experience of the Nursing School, first as a graduate student and then as a young faculty member.  The school’s internal culture is described, with reference to such issues as gender, sexism, and relationships between faculty and students. Its problematic external relations with the wider Yale community, especially with the Medical School, are addressed. Ameling also talks about the unique place of the school at Yale as a locus for high-achieving women and about the women on its faculty who became her role models or mentors, such as Florence Wald, Rita Dumas, Rachel Robinson, Margaret Arnstein and Donna Diers. \n\nAmeling recalls her early experiences in the Berkeley College fellowship, how gradually she became involved in university administration, and the role diversity initiatives played in providing opportunities for her advancement.  An account is given of the difficulties she experienced, both as a woman and as a member of the Nursing School, in chairing her first university committee. Looking back on her time as Acting Master at Berkeley and Master of Saybrook, she describes the challenges of these positions, and the extent to which her gender complicated them.  Her time in Yale’s central administration, which culminated in her seven years as associate provost, is then discussed. She recalls her relationships with Provosts Frank Turner, Judith Rodin and Alison Richard, as well as gender and power relations within the Provost’s Office. Ameling outlines the pressures involved in managing her diverse responsibilities, especially at a time of economic stringency, and the battle to prevent the closure of the Nursing and Divinity schools. She describes the evolution of Yale’s retirement and maternity policies, explaining her role in the implementation of the Yale family leave policy and domestic partner benefit plan, the ways in which being a woman influenced her position on these issues, and her own maternity and childcare arrangements.  The role gender played in the development of her management style, and the nature of her own feminist sensibility, are covered. Ameling discusses how salary inequities, the abolition of mandatory retirement, and Yale’s tenure system, affected younger faculty, particularly women. In this context she talks about her commitment to the mentoring of young faculty and administrators.  \n\nAmeling then explains why she left the central administration, giving an account of the personal costs she believed she incurred, and identifying what she regards as her greatest achievements as assistant provost.  Next she turns to her second period on the YSN faculty and her struggle to find a new direction in her scholarship and teaching.  Finally, she talks about her decision to become a student at the Yale Divinity School (including her experience of being a student again), and shares her views on the current situation of women in the academy and changing perceptions of the role of the university in society.","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026d981f7bd-f9c9-4ca4-9190-1c80c2bedb41","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20210827-32762-lpgc8v.mpga"]},"duration":17933.32245,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-yalemssa.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/122/262/original/open-uri20210827-32762-lpgc8v.mpga?1630069445","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":17933.32245,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ru_1051_2012-a-036_ameling_ann_transcript.json [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think we're recording.  So I'll just plunk it in front of us like that.  So that should be all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=0.0,8.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8.25,8.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8.41,8.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8.95,9.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Can I just hear your voice so that I know that the levels are --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9.14,10.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Sure.  You think that's OK?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10.85,12.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think the levels are -- are pretty good.  What it is, also, we can have better eye contact rather than looking sideways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12.45,19.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=19.75,20.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: OK.  It's -- excuse me -- Tuesday the -- Friday the 27th of June.  I'm here with Professor Ameling from the Yale School of Nursing at her home at 869 Orange Street in New Haven.  OK.  Well, thank you again for agreeing to do an interview.  This is actually the first formal one I've done with anybody from the nursing school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=21.11,48.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=48.1,48.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So that's great.  And I'm desperately trying to get a spread of women from all arts and parts of the university, so it's great to have somebody formally for the record in the nursing school.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=48.79,61.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Have you had people on the medical side?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=61.72,63.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, I've had some --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=63.32,64.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: The -- the medical school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=64.27,64.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  I'm in touch with quite a number from the medical school and two already have done interviews for -- which -- which have been fun.  I -- I think there's something -- there's something special about surviving a medical education.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=64.93,79.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yes.  It's very different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=79.94,82.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=82.45,83.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It's a very different route and place in the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=83.02,85.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  Yes.  And also, of course, the medical school, I think, has been a -- is a place where women have had to really work to get in there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=85.4,95.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=95.26,96.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And I'm not sure that that's quite the same with the nursing school, though it has had its own difficulties.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=97.01,102.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, I think the -- if you don't mind me sort of (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=102.25,104.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No, not at all.  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=104.83,105.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  The difference between the nursing school and the medical school is that people have had difficulty... It's been hard for women to make their way in the medical school and to -- and to -- especially along the academic track.  But once they're there, they don't have a problem within the university.  The nursing school is very easy for women, because it's all women, to get in, but then they're isolated, in their own world.  A cocoon.  They can't get into -- access to anything else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=105.21,136.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=136.99,137.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, even the medical school, surprisingly.  That -- that -- really a lot of areas --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=136.99,142.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=142.99,143.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- that are just really closed off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=143.11,144.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  I think -- I know I was reading some of the material around the attempt to close the school in 1956 --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=144.34,152.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=152.74,153.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- and then one or two attempts later.  That it always seemed difficult for -- people from the nursing school to -- you to get the students placed and all that sort of thing.  That seemed to be kind of a running sore between the two schools.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=153.66,169.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=169.57,170.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I don't know whether that's been resolved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=170.75,171.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, it was an economic thing, you know, because the nurses were... For example, the nurse midwives were viewed as taking away obstetric patients --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=171.89,182.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=182.34,182.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- from the physicians.  So it was -- it was purely a trade argument.  I mean, it had nothing to do with the university --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=182.51,191.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=191.61,191.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- or anything theoretical.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=191.77,193.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So it was the bottom line?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=194.12,196.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=196.19,196.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.  Let's go right back to the beginning.  I'd really like you to -- you to tell me something about your own background.  Where you were born and brought up, for example, and a little bit about your family and --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=196.78,215.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=215.77,216.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- your relationship with your parents.  Particularly, it'd be nice to hear something of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=216.83,222.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.  Well, I really -- through my patients, I really had a relationship with Yale before I was born.  My mother and father were both -- came from immigrant families.  My family lived in Danbury, my mother lived -- in Connecticut and my mother lived in New Briton.  My father was Italian, my mother was Polish.  My father was -- came from a very poor family and no one really had an education.  And they aspired to something better for him, and he won a contest.  A wealthy Yale alum sponsored a contest, a scholarship, for -- with a full scholarship as the price, to Yale.  A statewide scholarship.  And my father entered it and he won.  And he -- he described it... He described it... He took -- he had a cardboard suitcase and he got on the trolley, which in those days went all the way with -- through Links (sp?), all the way to New Haven, and he came -- came to New Haven.  And he went to Yale College and he -- and went to the medical school.  And then he did his internship and his residency here, and he met my mother, who was a nurse at Yale New Haven when they were both working there. And then they eventually married.  So both of them had strong Yale connections.  And if it hadn't been for Yale, I would never be here (inaudible).  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=222.12,312.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My parents didn't really want -- my father didn't want me to become a physician.  I had a very -- very close and warm relationship with him.  He went on to practice.  He was a surgeon.  To practice in Danbury, and my mother became a housewife, as was sort of traditional at the time, after she got -- or they got married.  In 1939, I think they got married.  My father was in the class of '24 Shef (sp?).  They don't divide it up that way anymore.  But Sheffield Scientifics was the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=313.4,344.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=344.33,344.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was the precursor to the engineering department and so he graduated from them.  And actually, he went to work at Brooklyn Edison, thinking he was going to go into engineering, and he hated it, and so he wrote back and asked if he could be admitted to the medical school late.  And they -- they took him in and he ended up really loving that.  For my mother, it was a big... You know, to go... She went to Grace Nursing School, which was not affiliated with -- it was affiliated, but it wasn't a part -- a formal part of Yale New Haven.  The whole thing hadn't been incorporated into one conglomerate.  And actually, Grace School was -- it was a direct -- it was a direct descendent of one of the Nightingale schools.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=344.8,396.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=396.71,397.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  So, I mean, it was a very prestigious place and very... In one sense very traditional, in the other very progressive.  So, you know, they both had very unusual educations for their -- for their background.  And I think, you know, they sort of brought me up to really love Yale.  We used to come down to the football games.  I remember my father loved going to the football games and he'd buy me a big chrysanthemum with, you know, Yale blue ribbons around there, or little bulldogs, you know, on -- on the thing and I thought that was so wonderful.  And I can remember coming to the games and seeing the -- park -- we parked in the parking lot that are now the athletic fields and that whole field was ringed with -- I thought they were fascinating.  They were Quonset huts because there were so many veterans, returning veterans who would come back to finish their degree that they had to house them -- when they were married, they couldn't be in the dorms, so they had them housed there.  And I thought that was -- and they looked like circle tin cans to me.  That was really -- it -- it was really great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=397.28,464.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Gosh.  I -- I didn’t know anything at all about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=464.55,465.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=465.17,466.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I didn't know that there -- there was a bulge of students after the war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=466.95,470.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=470.63,470.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: As many universities has experienced.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=470.75,472.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=472.17,472.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But I didn't realize that they had to be housed that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=472.29,476.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, most of them, as I said, were married.  So -- and married students were not allowed -- and I think even married... Somebody, I can't remember how it was, told me... Might have been Harry Adams.  No, it was somebody who was here at Yale much longer than he had been.  When he came on the Yale faculty, as a junior faculty member -- he was a fellow, which was very common.  I guess that they would live in the colleges.  He was a bachelor.  And when he married, he had to move out because there couldn't be any married, you know, couples in the university.  I don't know, they thought it would contaminate the -- the young men.  When my father was here, there were no colleges.  That was before the college system.  And he lived in a -- they were clubs.  They were like eating clubs.  He was in a fraternity for a while, but he said he couldn't concentrate, that it was too noisy, and so he went into another place that was (inaudible) quieter.  And they'd have their meals.  And it was -- it was sort of like little colleges, but they didn't have, you know, any of the academic things, or the affiliation.  So it was very different in -- in those days.  There was a chapel.  He said there was a chapel -- compulsory chapel every morning, and that they took attendance, and that one time he nearly got killed.  He was running.  He was so late and he had been tardy so many times that he was afraid that he was going to be disciplined.  And he fell, and I guess it was winter, and he slid under a trolley --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=476.26,564.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: [gasp].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=564.79,564.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- where he almost got decapitated.  And he said that scared him so much that after that he kind of got himself more organized.  But I can picture him running, you know, down Prospect Street and sliding under the trolley, running to (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=564.91,579.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did he -- because he came from, you know, a very modest immigrant background, did he ever encounter any kinds of discrimination --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=579.44,588.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He didn't --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=588.15,588.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- because of that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=588.91,590.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He didn't really talk about it, about anything that much at Yale as an undergraduate.  I think, though -- I think that he did encounter a lot of it. He -- because he was living in, you know, smaller quarters and there wasn't the kind of social -- I mean, he wasn't in, you know, sort of the in crowd.  You know, he was there to study and he was really happy to be there.  And fortunately, though he came from a very modest background, he was a very handsome guy and he happened to look a lot like Rudolph Valentino, who was very much in favor in those days.  So I think that he was -- he was, you know, sort of one of the boys and he was very successful with women.  And he did describe things, like they went to the Palace Theater, which is now sort of de -- I mean, it's used for big events.  And he got -- he and one of his roommates got -- they got arrested.  Well, they got taken to jail, they weren't actually arrested, because they were pitching pennies at the -- at the actors on the stage because the show was so bad.  So I think that he probably had a good time --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=590.06,660.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=660.9,661.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- and that he had his own crowd, and that -- for being an immigrant, that he was probably... You know, he was just... And he had a very sort of sunny, modest personality, too, so I think that he did very well.  Where he encountered more prej -- prejudice was when he went back to practice in Connecticut.  I don't know if I've -- I had ever told you the story.  But -- did I?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=661.02,684.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=684.62,684.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=684.74,684.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You haven't.  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=684.86,685.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He -- he had been the chief resident.  He had done very well in medicine and he liked it very much and he became chief resident in OB-GYN.  And he went back to Danbury to practice, and when he went back and opened his office, no one would come to him except for the immigrants.  There were doctors -- I mean, doctors in the town, but they came from a very -- I'd describe it -- a very Yankee background.  And his -- it just wasn't acceptable for (inaudible) to go.  And he just sort of plodded along in the beginning.  I mean, he was paid a lot of the times, my mother said, in eggs and, you know, produce from people's gardens, and various things.  And they managed, but, you know, it was very disappointing to him.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=685.21,736.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But he sort of persevered and what really turned things around for him was one day a woman from a very well-to-do influential family was pregnant and she had -- oh, what do you call it?  The blood incom -- blood incompatibility.  Neg -- rH negative.  She --and it was discovered by her doctor.  It was something they had just really early on noticed, and it was something that was potentially very deadly to her and the unborn child.  So her doctor sent her down to Yale New Haven and when they saw her, they said, \"Well, you know, we'd be very glad to treat you, but why are you coming down here? You have one of our best people in this field right in Danbury.\"  And they said, \"Oh, who?\"  And it was my father, because he had sort of worked with the whole research group in that area.  And they went back and saw him and after that, people --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=736.06,798.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=798.96,799.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- befriended him and he was sort of -- opened up to the community.  But it was, you know, through his Yale connection.  But he had a few friends who were -- had, you know, very old Yankee backgrounds and they sort of mentored him after that.  So there was -- certainly was a lot of prejudice at the time.  And I think even when I went to Smith, which was much later than that, that those of us -- I wasn't -- certainly from an immigrant background by that time.  You know, my father was wealthy and, you know... But we were viewed as sort of in a different classification.  And while he didn't have... I mean, there was sort of the equivalence of the old blue thing.  So that's about it.  But I had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=799.71,848.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So did -- did you grow up, then, with a sense of professional purpose?  That you were going to be a professional woman?  Did your parents -- if -- if so, did your parents share that vision for you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=849.11,867.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I didn't have an idea of being a professional.  In fact, I didn't want to be a professional person.  But I wanted to be -- wanted to be independent.  I viewed myself as not wanting to have a traditional life, you know, getting married and having a family.  I wanted to have a career.  I didn't know what it was going to be.  And I wanted to get a really good education, is what I did.  And my father wanted me to go -- I would have gone to Yale, but my father refused to let me go to a Catholic school, which is the route that most people would have taken. Because he said that he didn't want me to get an inferior education.  And the example he always used is that the Kennedy's sent their sons to Ivy League schools and they sent their daughters to Catholic schools.  And so that -- you know, that's just a mark that it's first rate to go.  So he wanted me to go.  And Smith was the -- you know, the seven sisters were the female equivalent of the Ivy League.  So if I had been a little bit younger -- well, quite a bit younger, I would have -- I would have -- certainly would have wanted to go to Yale.  But that was... I mean, there's just no possibility in those days.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=867.33,941.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, because that would be in the early '60s, wouldn't it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=941.5,943.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I went to col -- I graduated in 1962 from Smith, so that was the late '50s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=943.39,948.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Late '50s, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=948.86,949.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, you know...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=950.26,951.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=951.27,951.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, they hadn't even begun to think about, you know, women at Yale at all.  But I didn't want -- my father discouraged me from thinking about going into medicine because he said that it was -- that medicine was changing, that it -- it wasn't the kind of joyful independent practice that he had liked so much, that it was becoming much more like a business, and that he thought in the future that it would be a very trying field to be in and he didn't want that for me.  So I went to Smith and --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=951.43,989.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What about your mother?  What was -- what was her view of all of this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=989.09,992.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: My mother --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=992.1,993.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did -- I -- I take it she -- when she -- when she married, she gave up her job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=993.37,998.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She gave up her -- she gave up her job.  She had been a supervisor in OB-GYN and she had met my father because... I think she noticed him because he was very good looking, and that he -- he always overslept and he would be always coming late for rounds, which was a really terrible thing.  So she got so she would call him when she got on duty so that he would be awake in there and then they started to, you know, see each other.  But she -- she also wanted an education and she paid her own... I mean, she earned her own money for nursing school by -- at least this is what she told me -- by cleaning houses.  And so it was really a big step up for her to come to nursing school and she worked at it very hard.  And she had wonderful adventures and she had a great time.  Two of her sisters also came, and I think they -- and they were very pretty girls when they were young, and I think they had just a wonderful time down here.  I -- just fantastic.  But, I mean... Then when she got married, it just... You know, women just didn't work.  And I think it was really kind of hard for her to give up, you know, all that fun and just sort of be a housewife.  But she didn't aspire to nursing for me.  She was sort of open.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=998.39,1087.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was very interested in -- I did very well in the classics.  I -- I was... I was very, very good in Latin, surprisingly, and I thought about -- they thought at Smith that that's what I was going into, a field I was going to go into.  But I sort of looked ahead, you know, to what some of the other women were doing, and I felt that in those -- that time, there was no future for me in academic life, because it was very unheard of for women to become tenured.  You know, this was like the cusp of the -- of the '60s.  You know, it was the '50s, '60s.  And the only thing that women were succeeding -- you know, were going onto... I mean, a lot of them were getting married after they left.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1087.5,1133.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Like the example of one of the -- the example that we all sort of knew about.  It was like Ann Morrow Lindberg (sp?).  You know, I mean, that was considered to be a very nice thing to do.  You know, to go and sort of have a little bit of, you know, independent life but, you know, get married and be settled.  They all -- the only things they went into were law or medicine.  And medicine really... You know, because of my father was more... And seeing the kind of life that he had.  Always being on call, you know.  I mean, all the worry.  I decided that that really wasn't for me and the law didn't really appeal to me.  So I didn't see what path I could take.  And I -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1134.33,1178.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Were you ever taught at Smith by women who might have mentored you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1178.59,1182.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Most of the -- my professors were men.  And, in fact, the president of the college was Thomas Mendenhall (sp?), who had been recruited from Yale.  He was the master.  He had been the master at Berkeley College and... For a term, I ended up being the master there, which was really interesting for me to sort of follow that.  But no, most of the -- there weren't women professors there.  And looking back at it, who were the women there? There were house mothers, there were... But they were considered to be kind of retired old ladies who just had like a little sinecure by, you know, having their little parlor and the girls.  There were women in the athletic department, but they weren’t -- certainly weren't scholars.  And I can't remember any women faculty, to tell you the truth.  There probably were a few, but the prestigious ones were all, you know, men and you all sort of aspired to get into the professor's class.  And so there wasn't any chance to be -- you were mentored by some of the upperclassmen, you know, if they would sort of take you under their wing.  They would sort of help you with thinking things through.  But, you know, there really wasn't much.  There just weren't many -- many choices.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1182.29,1264.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I did psychol -- I majored in psychology because I thought that that might be a promising field.  And then when I looked ahead, I realized that if I wanted to do therapy, that I would never be able to prescribe.  And sort of thinking into the future, even though that wasn't the case in those days, I sort of saw that pharmacology was going to be the future of psychology and that I would be much better off going the nursing route, where you could become a therapist and have a private practice, even, and that -- because of your medical background, it was probably possible that you were going to prescribe.  And that's actually the way it evolved.  The psychologists for, you know, a long time and really had to struggle because they weren’t able to -- they didn’t have... I don't know that -- I don't think -- they still don't have prescriptive powers.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1264.64,1318.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I went in -- I went into nursing, but I didn't go right away.  I went to -- well, I went to nursing school at Columbia in a special program.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1318.73,1328.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: How long was that for?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1328.25,1329.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was for two years and it was for people who had a college -- already had a college degree.  There were 16 of us in the class.  They came from different backgrounds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1329.55,1340.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You didn't think of the nursing school here at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1340.75,1343.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, you had -- it was only a graduate program.  I wanted to come here but it was only a graduate program.  It didn't give you a basic degree.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1343.03,1352.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1352.18,1353.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I needed to get my nursing degree --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1353.02,1355.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1355.65,1355.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- before I came to the graduate program.  So I went that route because that was the shortest.  Two years there and then two years for my master's at Yale.  But at Columbia -- after Columbia, I -- that was -- it was really interesting, because even though it was a special program, they put us in with, you know, the young girls who were in the bachelor's program.  And, you know, we wore -- we wore like Nightingale uniforms.  We had black stockings, and we had leg of mutton sleeves, and oh, gosh, we had to starch our own caps and everything.  And, you know, we had curfews.  And it was -- it was really... I mean, for college graduates, it was really.  And so one day, all of us -- it was... The program had just started.  One day all of us got together and we went to the head of the program, and we said, \"This is it.  We're not having any curfew.  We're all over 21.  You know, we're adults and, you know, we'll do the classes and we'll wear the regalia you want, but no social rules on us.\"  And they said OK.  OK.  So all right.  So that was our little active rebellion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1355.77,1428.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  Well, I suppose you would have been... I don't know whether... Would you still have been an undergraduate when Betty Freidan’s book was published?  Because it was published in '63.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1428.16,1440.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I had just gotten out of -- of college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1440.44,1445.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1445.6,1445.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  Because I graduated in '62 and it came out in '63.  Now, I read --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1445.72,1451.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you remember it being (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1451.41,1451.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I read that and I'm telling... It just like opened my mind to, you know, a lot of things.  It was -- had a tremendous impact on me.  And the fact that she had been at Smith just even more.  So I started sort of looking at the careers of a lot of women who had gone on to what I saw as kind of extraordinary things in their life.  Silvia Platt, I mean, who certainly didn't have a very happy life, but really achieved, I mean, a tremendous amount.  Betty Friedan -- Ann Morrow Lindberg.  And I tried to kind of think about how my life might be able to evolve.  And I definitely wanted to go into the university, but I couldn't see any route in except through, you know, the medical field.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1451.85,1503.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1503.54,1503.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I really was never devoted to nursing.  I was -- I always saw it as a way of sort of getting on --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1503.7,1510.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1510.37,1510.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- you know, into the university, sort of through the back door.  I didn't realize how hard it was going to be to come that route, because once you got here, you were sort of stuck over at the nursing school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1510.49,1524.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1524.86,1528.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1528.36,1529.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you -- despite all the kind of restrictions and strictures of -- of your couple years at Columbia, did you enjoy the nursing itself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1529.53,1539.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  I didn't really like the nursing, myself.  I liked the -- I liked a couple of experiences.  You know, you have to go... It's like med -- it was like the medical school.  You went through, you know, rotations of the specialties.  I liked the psychiatric nursing part of it.  We were at New York State Psychiatric Institute, where there was a lot of research going on, and they were doing research on two things that I thought was fascinating.  One was they were doing it with addicts, which was a new field, and we had... At one time, I was on a whole unit full of addicts, and they were just amazing people.  I mean, they were so devious.  I mean, they were -- they were really extraordinarily interesting people.  And very clever at getting their drugs and doing... But I liked it.  It was very lively, and it was intellectually stimulating because of the research.  The other area they were doing -- they were researching idiot savants who --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1539.95,1596.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1596.92,1599.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, they're very rare.  I mean, they've had a whole slew of them, and they had this set of twins who were... They were in their early 20s, by then, who were severely retarded, but... In every area except the -- they could tell you what the weather had been on any day in all of the years of their lifetime, and you could look it up in the old almanacs, you know --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1599.06,1623.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible).  Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1623.62,1623.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- and see if it was right.  And so they were -- they were sort of like... They became like family there.  And I thought that was so fascinating, you know, because of the neurological stuff that they were doing, the studying.  I liked that a lot and I like obstetrics.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1623.98,1637.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And obstetrics was really interesting because it was very revealing.  They gave women in those days what was called... You know, obstetrics was supposed to -- coming so modern.  They gave women what they called 'Twilight Sleep', which was supposed to be a great revolution.  It wasn't harmful, it wasn't such deep sedation that it was harmful to the baby, and you were supposedly pain free.  Well, I discovered that it was one great, big deception, because what it did was... I don't know how it affected your brain.  You didn't remember the pain, but you had it while you were in labor, and women were sort of out of control.  They were screaming and carrying on.  We would have to restrain them.  And then afterwards, they would go, \"Oh, that was such a wonderful experience.\"  And I realized that it was just a deception on the whole part of the medical field.  You know -- I mean, we sort of lied to them and they never knew that we had done that.  And I thought, \"That's really a dirty thing to do to women.  That's really horrible.\"  So I didn't like that feeling so much anymore.  I thought, these men -- because that was all obstetricians -- were all deceiving these people.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1638.58,1707.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then I met one woman who wanted -- had natural childbirth who was... I met her and she was vastly in labor.  I can't remember what her name was, but she -- she had been a student at Smith when I was there.  She had been in one of the upper classes, and she was in labor, and I -- we sort of recognized each other.  And I stayed with her all through her labor and her delivery, and I can remember that they took away her glasses and when she was about to give birth, she begged me to get her glasses so that she could see the baby.  And I went and got the necklace.  Like a really naughty thing for me to do.  And I put her glasses on.  I tied them on so they wouldn't come off.  She was so happy.  She was like weeping, and I thought this is really just a beautiful thing.  But I knew it wasn't for me.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1708.91,1762.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So those are the only two experiences that I liked.  The rest of it I hated.  I mean, they really exploited us.  I mean, we didn't pay -- I think it was very low tuition.  It was like $900 a year, but they used us on the wards for labor.  And I had one experience that was supposed to be called evenings and nights.  It was like a senior experience.  Well, the experience was that you were the only nurse on these big -- they had these big, old fashioned wards.  You were the only nurse there.  There was no, you know, faculty there to teach you anything.  You were just there to work.  I said, \"This is ridiculous.  You know, this is...\"  And I said, \"This is not an educational experience, so I'm just going to get through this as fast as I can.\"  And -- in fact, I refused my very last assignment.  I hope I'm not rambling too much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1762.11,1815.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Not at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1815.9,1816.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I refused my last assignment.  I can remember the very last day that I was on a ward.  It was a medical ward and the nurse -- head nurse came up to me, and she said, \"I have a wonderful learning experience for you.\"  It was a patient with a new colostomy and he needs to be taught how to irrigate his colostomy.  You know, which is really -- they just wanted me to clean him up.  I knew that that was what... And then I said, \"No, I've already had that experience.  I don't think I need it.\"  And I knew, since it was my last day, that they couldn't, you know, discipline me or anything.  And I thought, \"That's it.  I'm not taking any of this,\" you know, being assigned to work under the guise of education anymore.  So I kind of was happy leaving -- leaving that place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1816.46,1867.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So there's always been a bit of a rebel in you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1867.05,1869.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think so.  I mean, I don't think I would have been able to do what I did if I -- and when I was at Smith, even thought I was not... I knew that I wasn't sort of on the inside, you know, because a lot of the girls were from very wealthy backgrounds and a lot of them knew each other.  Most of them knew each other from boarding school or from, you know, other experiences.  And, you know, there are a few of us who came from different backgrounds, because we were bright, you know, we were there.  And -- but I made friends with all -- and I got to be the... In fact, for three that I -- out of the four that I was there, I was the president of my house, which is... We had sort of self-government and... So I really... I sort of ran the place and I was very good at doing it, you know, too.  You know, I sort of thought of ways that we could elude a lot of -- a lot of the rules and things.  I had a very good time.  So among the girls that were in my house -- and because of that, I got... Because I was the house president, I was on other councils within the university and so, you know, I got my little day in the sun.  But, you know, I knew I was never socially acceptable, you know, to people.  But I'd grown up that way, so you know, didn't really expect that it was going to be that different.  And classes... It was certainly your intellectual ability, but you know, because the -- a lot of the other girls had been prepped so thoroughly in the schools that they had gone to, and I had gone to just a public high school in a small town, that I had -- it took me a long time to sort of catch up to where everybody was.  So, you know, I wasn't even that fantastic a student -- you know, a student.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1869.09,1986.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But ambitious, I would say?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1987.73,1989.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I was ambitious, yeah.  I was very ambitious.  And psychology was sort of a newish field and being in a new field was very -- it was a lot of fun for me.  It was very interesting and -- because it was a little freer because it was a new discipline.  And -- and they considered psychology to be not one of the social sciences, but one of the hard sciences, and that -- so I was considered to be a science major, which was also a little prestigious.  That was -- that was a lot of fun.  I really liked it a lot.  And I saw that I could probably do very well in that field.  And so then when I went to -- after I went to nursing school with the idea that I was going to go into... I knew I was going to go into psychiatric nursing the whole time.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=1990.0,2035.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I worked at Cornell Medical Center in New York, at Payne Whitney Psychiatric Institute.  And I was there for a year and I guess after I'd been there six months, I was appointed as -- I was the evening supervisor.  So I think I probably did very -- you know, I was very... I think I was very talented.  And I was aggressive.  You know, that's the other thing.  I wasn't like -- I wasn't timid at all about doing things.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2035.06,2065.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I can remember I -- I would sort of make things up.  Like when I had been at Columbia and I did that evenings and nights, I mean, all the -- they had a lot of patients who were like in pain.  We had a number of patients who were addicts, and they were in withdrawal and -- I don't know.  I just had read enough, I guess, so I knew about the placebo effect.  So I used to -- I knew I couldn't get them to prescribe any medication for these people, so I would tell them I was giving them morphine and I would just draw up sterile water into the syringes and go around and give them injections.  And you know, they really -- they acted like they were -- I mean, they got like pain relief from it.  And I said, \"This is really good.\"  If I ever got caught doing it, I would have been... But I said, \"This is really... You know, just give it about 20 minutes and it's going to be really good.  It will take away -- all the edge off everything.\"  And they -- and it actually... So it just sort of showed me what the power of the mind was, you know, over things. And when I was at Payne Whitney, I remember I was assigned to this beautiful but catatonic -- you know, cata -- they're like statues.  You know, they don't move.  You place the -- you move their limbs for them and they just keep them.  It's called waxy flexibility.  You don't see them anymore -- that kind of illness anymore because people are medicated.  But I -- and I had to help her bathe.  And, you know, helping someone who's completely stiff is really very hard to do.  So I'd shut the door to her room.  I'd tell people that -- I said, you know, don't -- because, you know, she gets upset very easily.  I said, \"Don't come in.\"  She had her own private shower.  And I undressed her and I took off all my clothes, because I didn't want my uniform to get... And I got in the shower with her and I'd get into the shower with her and wash her.  The two of us would be in there, and I thought, \"Oh, my God.  This is like really amazing.\"  So I felt like I was very innovative, you know, and I wasn't sort of afraid to handle things.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2065.69,2190.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I wasn't afraid of patients who were like -- some of them were very violent.  I remember that I had -- I was looking forward to seeing this celebrity because a lot of wealthy people went there.  And we'd had rumors that Marilyn Monroe had been there just before I came, and that the admitting resident in the night was doing a physical on her, and he asked her her name, and she said she was Marilyn Monroe and he said, \"Yeah, right.\"  She looked so awful.  I mean, I guess she wasn't really... But he -- he didn't believe it until after.  He was like shocked.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2190.38,2226.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I had this -- I'll say her name.  Paula Prentiss, who wasn't like a -- she wasn't Marilyn Monroe, but she was -- in those days, she was a pretty big movie star.  She was in -- I think -- she had just been in What's Up, Pussycat?\".","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2227.2,2240.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2240.95,2241.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And she was admitted one evening when I was on, and she -- they called me up to the floor because she was running around totally naked with only a mink coat on, screaming and carrying on up on the... She had run onto the men's ward and people didn't know how to control her.  So here I am, you know, on -- she was a -- she was a tall woman.  And, you know, I was like one little nurse.  I was small in those days.  And I just -- I just went up to her and I just -- I told her to get in her room and put her clothes on, you know, and it -- and she did it.  You know, she did it for me.  And I just -- I don't -- you know, I don't know why I was able to do those things.  I just...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2241.53,2286.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: A good training ground for administration (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2286.13,2288.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was good training ground for administration, but then I was so disillusioned, because I thought, \"Here's my celebrity, and what's she doing?  She's running around naked in a mink coat.  You know, is this ridiculous or not.\"  You know.  And then after that, I never wished for a celebrity again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2288.95,2302.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2302.72,2304.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because if she hadn't been a sort of privileged person, they wouldn't have let her get out of control.  They were probably, you know, not putting enough restraints on her in the beginning.  But...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2304.21,2313.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So why did you -- you -- you then obviously wanted to do graduate and psychiatric nursing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2313.93,2320.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2320.54,2320.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And why -- why -- why did you choose Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2320.99,2323.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I always wanted to go to Yale --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2323.12,2325.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2325.21,2325.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- because that was where -- that was what my goal was, to go to Yale.  And I went at that particular time because I remember I was so proud because of my bachelor's degree.  When they hired me, I got a differential for having a college degree, and they were giving me $99 a week in salary, and I thought that was like magnificent.  And then all the initiatives for mental health came out.  It was the -- there was the -- on the cusp of community mental health movement.  And because there weren't people who were trained -- nobody was trained in psychiatry.  I mean, except for a few analysts and people... Most physicians didn't even have any background at all in psychiatry.  There were initiatives to train doctors and nurses, and there were training grants.  And I looked at the description of it, and I realized with the stipend for your living expenses that they were providing, plus full tuition, that I was having more money -- I was taking home more money in pocket than I was working full time in a prestigious place in New York.  And I said I had to be out of my mind not to go to school under those circumstances.  So that's how I came to Yale and I never left.  You know, I mean, I've been here ever since.  So I came as a student in 1960 -- '65 and graduated in '67.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2325.33,2416.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  And that was with a -- what -- what... So what -- what...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2416.67,2422.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Psychiatric nursing was my specialty.  I was going to get a master's degree.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2422.6,2425.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible) right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2426.0,2426.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Master of Science in nursing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2426.16,2427.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2427.44,2427.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And there was a very small program, and there were only a few specialties.  There was midwifery, there was public health, there was psychiatric nursing.  So yeah.  They called it psychiatric mental health nursing in those days.  And I think that that was it.  So it was a very small school, and we were very -- had very close relationships with our faculty because of the small size.  And we were sort of treated as colleagues, unlike, you know, my other experiences that I had had.  And I really -- I really liked that.  And when I graduated, I was hired on the faculty right away because a lot of faculty had research projects and they'd hire you as research assistants/lecturer if they wanted you to teach, because they also needed people to teach.  And the Connecticut Mental Health Center opened the year that I -- and I was involved in training the staff.  I'm telling you, we made it all up as we went along.  We really did.  I mean, we didn't know what we were doing.  I mean --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2427.56,2498.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: There's a kind of freedom in that, as well, isn't there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2498.26,2500.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yes.  It was really -- it was really wonderful.  It was really -- it was fantastic.  And there was a lot of free -- and a lot of blurring of role identities.  It was the one time for me that physicians, instead of being like these godlike people, they did community mental health and they had to be more hands-on with the patients, because communities were also more aggressive, you know, that they would -- people would storm in, you know, and they'd say, \"You're not treating the addicts, you know, in our neighborhood,\" and they would have a sit-down, you know, in the lobby.  You'd have to go and deal with them.  But I remember I taught the physicians how to give injections, and you know, how to do a lot of basic things, that even though they were, you know, big-time psychiatrists, they didn't really know how to do.  And they didn't really know how to deal with people.  They knew how to, you know, do a diagnostic thing, but they didn't really know how to do interaction with people.  So we were really ahead, you know, I mean, of things.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2500.55,2560.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And in seeing a physician, unusual position of a woman being in some authority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2560.52,2565.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2565.9,2566.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Were there any women on the faculty in -- in the nursing school that you particularly admired or women who -- who you would regard as a mentor at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2568.3,2580.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: There were -- I admired a number of people I didn't admire then, but... Florence Wald (sp?) was the dean then, and, you know, she started the hospice thing.  She brought Sicily Saunders.  In fact, when I was a student, Sicily Saunders was there for -- on leave for a year to kind of teach the faculty about, you know, the hospice principles and stuff and inspired Florence.  But, you know, I thought -- to tell you the truth, I thought Florence was a fool. She really didn't know anything.  She was very scatter -- she had very sweet, nice, but very scatterbrained woman and she was a terrible teacher.  And she was a terrible dean and it was really a relief -- I mean, I ended up really liking her as a person, you know, throughout the time... And Sicily Saunders was wonderful.  You know, so you got exposed to people like that.  And then on the faculty was a woman called Rita Dumont (sp?).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2580.65,2636.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2636.75,2637.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Who became -- she became the nursing chief at NIH.  She was a black woman.  Big.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2637.56,2641.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I was just wondering because --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2641.66,2641.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Big black woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2641.77,2643.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- she died, I think, only two years --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2643.48,2643.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, she just -- she just died.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2643.84,2644.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Because I missed her as it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2644.28,2649.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was... Oh, she was an amazing person.  Amazing.  She was just no nonsense.  And, I mean, talk about -- she was very bright but she kind of made things up, you know, as she went along, too.  But she was sort of a big, imposing, very self-assured black woman, which put her in a very powerful position in those days sort of socially, because there weren't very many non-whites, and so -- and there were a lot of non-white populations that they were dealing with and community groups.  And she was very, very, very good at doing that, and she had done some really brilliant research.  But she was also a very inspirational person.  I -- I don't remember if it was everybody -- maybe it was just... I don't remember if it was just me, but I felt like I had a really... She used to have people over to her house.  She'd have wonderful parties.  She grew up as a young girl in the summer in the south, and she told me the story about how she -- she was just married very young to a guy that was pretty cruel and that she really didn't like very much and he was very withholding.  She was just to, you know, stay at home and run the house, and that he drank, so at night after he was drunk, she would go through his pockets and take money out.  Not all of it, but you know, enough.  And, of course, he wouldn't remember where he had been and what he had spent.  And she kept the money in a shoebox and I don't -- can't remember how many years it took her, but when she got enough money in the shoebox, she took the shoebox and she left.  She came up north and she got herself an education.  So I thought she was just like an amazing, amazing person.  Absolutely amazing.  So I really admired... You know, not just the nursing, but as a woman.  I mean, here was someone who really was just tremendous, just tremendous.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2649.06,2763.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then Rachel Robinson -- Jackie Robinson's -- the base -- baseball player, his wife was on the faculty.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2763.63,2768.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, really.  I didn't know that.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2768.24,2768.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was wonderful and she was a beautiful woman.  And I never met him because... I think at that time that they were really -- they had -- were launching that... You know, they did like a public foundation.  It was the Chock Full O Nuts.  Well, they did a foundation for improving the lives of minority and minority businesses, and that the fundraising and training side of it, one of it was -- they formed Chock Full O Nuts in New York, and he was doing it.  And then when he died very suddenly, Rachel left our faculty and she went and headed it up.  But she was -- she was an amazing person.  She was very different than Rita.  You know, even though they were black woman of about the same age.  She was very refined, very soft spoken, beautiful, sort of aristocratic woman.  Beautiful manners.  You know, very, very gracious.  She was just... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2768.56,2834.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I actually had some people there that, you know, were really models for me and who were doing sort of extraordinary things.  I mean, the things that Rachel and her husband were doing... I mean, and their lives had been, you know, sort of on the cutting edge of integrating sports, sort of moving into, you know, a different social position and integrating, you know, sort of New York society.  She was just amazing.  And then Donna Deers (sp?), who became the dean, really sort of mentored me.  She was much closer to my age.  She was only about -- she's maybe about, I don't know, eight years older than I am.  But she was very, very bright and I liked her a lot.  The first time I had a paper for her... I don't know, I just sort of dashed something off.  I thought that was pretty superior, you know.  I had a college degree, a liberal arts college degree.  I had gone to Smith.  I thought I was smart and I thought this was going to be a piece of cake.  And she gave me a failing grade on the paper, and she said it was a piece of garbage, that I wasn't working at all at the material.  And I was so shocked.  I couldn't believe it.  And I met with her and she said that she just wasn't going to allow -- allow me to be... It wasn't that the paper was so bad, but she wasn't going to allow me to be an underachiever, so I just better buckle down and try to do the best that I could.  And I did from that point on.  And in fact, I worked for her at first, and then she kind of mentored me along my whole career, so that was very -- that was very interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2836.0,2933.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So in some ways, the nursing school, for a woman, was presenting an awful lot more opportunities to meet achieving women than any other part of Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2933.89,2943.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Absolutely.  Absolutely.  Virginia Henderson, who was there... I don't know if you've ever heard her name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2943.52,2948.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No, I haven't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2948.34,2948.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was -- she was consid -- she was sort of like the American Florence Nightingale.  She was also -- already an elderly woman by the time that I went to the nursing school.  But she just had gotten all kinds of international honors.  She had been in World War I.  She had been like a ward sister and, you know, sort of -- she had very much like a Florence Nightingale kind of story, but she had kind of reformed American nursing education and sort of taken the Nightingale model, but she had really pioneered... And she had written a definitive textbook, you know, I mean, on -- in nursing and everything.  She was also -- she was a southern, very charming -- very, very charming woman.  And she had an apartment -- I was commuting from New York, because I was married at the time, while I was in nursing school.  And she had an apartment on Morningside Heights and I was living in Columbia Housing, which was very close by, and so she used to invite me over for tea, and then we got so that we would commute on the train, you know, every once in a while.  She had an apartment here, too.  But she was just a wonderful, wonderful person.  And also, you know, I mean... She was just like a friend of, you know, everybody.  You know, presidents, you know, statesmen.  And she was just a delightful, delightful person.  Very kind.  So I saw many more achieving women, and women who had achieved at a higher level than really anybody else in the university.  So I never thought about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=2948.54,3040.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And yet -- and yet the nursing school, as far as I can understand from what I've read, was never held in real -- real regard by the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3040.97,3049.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: By anybody.  Not by the university, not by the medical school, not by anybody.  We were considered to be, I don't know, playing house over there or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3049.8,3059.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Were you aware of that when you were a student?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3059.71,3061.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.  But, you know, I wasn't as intimidated by the university as a lot of other people, because I had been at Smith.  And so I knew a lot of people that were like the people at Yale.  And I had sort of dealt with that.  I knew that there was no way of... Oh, the other person that mentored me was... Oh, my God, how could I forget her name.  I'll tell you, it's bad being old.  You really forget people's names.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3061.85,3092.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You don't have to be old.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3092.6,3093.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was a dean and she came toward the end of her -- she was there in 1970 -- '70s.  Her brother was the -- was in psychiatry.  He was the head of the Yale Health Plan at the time.  I'll think of her name in a -- in a bit.  And she had been a Smith graduate, and she had been a very big person on the national scene in public health.  And she mentored me because I was a Smith graduate.  She, because of her brother and because of her social background, knew a lot of people at Yale, and she entertained a lot.  She had a little apartment not far from where you are, on the other side of Whitney Avenue.  Some of those old sort of quadrangle buildings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3093.05,3138.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  Um-hmm.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3138.19,3138.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She had a very lovely apartment there and she used to invite me over to have dinner with regular Yale faculty.  But -- so it was sort of an old girl network.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3138.51,3151.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3151.68,3152.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But she died of cancer after she was only here a couple of -- of years.  She was a lovely, lovely, lovely person.  And I think that she was probably the one that, when they were thinking about women at Yale, they -- you know, they wanted to have a couple living in Vanderbilt Hall, on the old campus, with the -- the women, the small number of women they were enter -- that was the original plan.  Instead of integrating them into the colleges, they wanted to have a little protective thing for the women.  And she, of course, had -- she said -- she recommended me.  She pushed me very highly and I interviewed for that.  Alderwasserman (sp?), I remember, and a couple of other people.  We interviewed.  But they decided against the plan and placed the women in the colleges instead of having... So that there wasn't a need for a person like that.  So she was sort of... I mean, people were sort of helping me to move into the university, you know, a little bit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3152.19,3217.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What sort of contact did you have when -- once you became faculty at the School of Nursing?  Because you were on the faculty at that point.  This was (inaudible), what, eight or nine years?  Maybe not quite as much as that?  Before you moved over to the mastership.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3217.18,3234.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No, more than that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3234.28,3236.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3236.57,3237.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was more than... I know it was more than ten years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3237.89,3243.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was it?  yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3243.27,3243.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was more like 12 years.  Because I didn't get tenured until past -- I'd been there more than ten years, because -- and it didn't count against my time to tenure because Yale didn't -- the School of Nursing didn't have the ability to grant tenure.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3243.66,3259.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3259.97,3260.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So my clock didn't start to tick until -- until Yale had the ability to grant tenure.  The only people who were tenured were the deans, at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3262.1,3271.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Ah.  Right.  Ah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3271.69,3273.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I was further along.  I had been there more years.  But, you know, on the other hand, I didn't have a doctorate.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3273.12,3281.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3281.77,3281.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You know, it was sort of a new field, you know, and... You know, if it hadn't been that I had that extra time, I would never have, you know, gotten where I did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3281.94,3290.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  Did -- you -- you've talked a lot about and paid great tribute to a number of women who were incredibly helpful for you at the nursing school.  Were -- were there any, either there or in other parts of the university, let's say... And I'll just pick -- pluck it out of my -- the air here.  The medical school, since it was adjacent, that were -- that you felt were maybe less -- less supportive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3290.52,3317.36"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, nobody was supportive at the medical school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3317.55,3320.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3320.6,3321.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You know, my department was psychiatry, and it was at the Connecticut Mental Health Center.  It's not that people were so supportive, but they needed us because -- they needed us to function.  You know, we sort of protected them.  And so the -- you know, the young doctors were... You know, I knew -- I met a lot of young -- you know, young psychiatrists who went on in the fields of addiction -- you know, who are big names.  But medical school was not helpful at all.  I mean... And in fact, when I went to get my second research grant, I can't remember what her name was, but this one psychiatrist who worked with -- she had a male colleague and they were doing a lot of really interesting work in depression and they were using the Connecticut Mental Health Center population for their research.  And I had to go to talk to her -- I mean, it was just a political thing to do.  I had to go and talk to her because we wanted to include that population -- I really depended on it in the next study I was going to do.  And I went to see her, and you know, it was like closed door, you know, just face-to-face kind of a thing.  And she just told me in no uncertain -- she was a woman, too.  She just told me in no uncertain words that -- she said, \"I -- we own this population and you're not going to set foot in it, so forget about it.\"  And she meant it and she had the power to do that.  So, I mean, that's how supportive they were.  It was just... In fact, they were our greatest obstacles, actually.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3321.63,3416.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And any -- you know, the medical school... I don't know if you've heard this from anyone else.  Doctors thought that they were pretty hot stuff.  I mean, you know, they had prestige, they had authority, they made a lot of money.  They were also shunned in the university.  And in fact, though it was kept much more quiet, I became aware of that when I was at the college.  And, you know, you were appointing people to the fellowship, and any number of people told me, \"Be careful.  Don't appoint too many physicians because the regular faculty do not like to have to socialize with physicians.\"  So I was careful.  I was only -- very selective in who I did.  And I -- from being in the administration, it was open.  Absolutely open.  You know why they didn't have a faculty club here for so many years?  Well, you know, Yale was very unique in not having a faculty club.  They just had the fellowships.  The faculty -- FAS faculty did not want a faculty club, because if they had a faculty club, it would have to be open to the medical school, and again, they did not want to have to rub elbows with the physicians, who they felt would just try to dominate everything, and that were dull and were -- they weren’t people that they wanted to be with.  Isn't that horrible?  So, I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3417.37,3505.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That's amazing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3505.97,3506.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And, I mean, the excuse they used up there wasn't, you know, a suitable thing, that the fellow... I mean, it was always -- there was always a really good reason but the real reason.  And I don't know what -- what changed that.  I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3507.09,3520.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible) early ranks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3520.47,3520.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.  Absolutely.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3520.81,3523.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Like engineers?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3523.4,3525.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Sure.  Yes.  Isn't that awful?  I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3525.39,3526.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Goodness me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3526.65,3527.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So they really... And actually, the retired faculty club that they have now...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3528.01,3537.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: The Koerner Center?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3537.94,3539.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, they don't have a -- they don't have a faculty club.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3539.66,3541.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: It's the Koerner Center, isn't it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3541.36,3543.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It's the Koerner Center, which is for emeritus faculty.  But Bernie Lytton heads that and Bernie was a physician.  He was a urologist.  But Bernie was unique in that he sort of transcended being a physician.  He's British.  I don't know if you've ever met --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3543.4,3559.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I've met him once or twice, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3559.68,3561.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- met him.  He's charming.  He's very -- I mean, he's a little less so now, but he was very British.  He was always sort of hobnobbing with... I mean, he sort of ignored the fact that he was a physician and not supposed to be on the same... I mean, and he just sort of mingled with everybody and people really liked him.  He was just very intellectual.  He was very charming.  He always made a big friend of the presidents, you know, and the faculty liked him, and so he headed the Koerner Center, finally.  He was the one that had really pushed for it, and I think that he must have made some sort of a deal, that he was really going to nurture the FAS faculty and not let the medical school dominate.  Because if you really look at the membership of the -- there is a very small number of physicians given how many would be eligible.  Well, the size of the medical school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3561.6,3615.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[60:01]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3615.49,3615.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, the university and the provost's office, too, we resented the medical school.  The university resented the medical school for several things.  First of all, we thought that they were sort of crude and not very intellectual.  I'm saying we, because I sort of took on -- I was added to it.  Second of all, they were very large and their numbers would have overwhelmed the FAS faculty.  And third of all, they were very rich, so they resented that they made so much money compared to -- and so they were thoroughly disliked.  I mean, thoroughly disliked.  Always.  Even when I was in the provost's office.  It was sort of an unspoken thing, that we really hated those physicians.  And -- and in fact, we were always trying to think of ways that we could get their money and they were always thinking of ways that they could keep their money away from us.  And that we were always watching them, that they didn't do some great scam and get the university into trouble.  Like, you know, being dishonest on fed -- being federal grants or something.  So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3615.77,3684.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And there were one or two cases, I think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3684.77,3687.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3687.24,3688.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: There's Presig -- Presig...?  I seem to remember there was one -- one, I think, quite celebrated case because I came across it doing some research in the New York Times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3688.39,3700.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3700.22,3700.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That he -- accusation of stealing somebody else's research?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3700.78,3705.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3705.32,3705.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: A woman's research, actually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3705.56,3706.36"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right, right, right.  So, you know, we were always -- it was an adversarial position with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3706.38,3712.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3712.22,3712.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: On the other hand, we had to be cordial to them because they -- they had so much power.  They really did.  I mean, in terms of the sheer size and the money.  And they were so important to the university.  On the other hand, the university controlled the law school, because the medical school is self-support school.  So they manage their own money.  They manage their own bottom line.  Within university guidelines, they're able to spend their money as they wish, and do their own policy.  The law school is not a self support school.  That their endowment funds are mingled with the university funds and the univers -- they have -- they always wanted to be independent, and the university would not allow them to because they wanted to keep control over them.  So -- and -- be -- so it was a different relationship, even though the law school -- not as big, but still very prestigious and very aggressive, and very powerful.  But they were muzzled, whereas the medical school, they were always a kind of a loose cannon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3712.34,3777.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3777.95,3778.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, you never knew what they were going to do. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3778.21,3779.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And the nursing school, isn't it also self-funding?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3779.75,3782.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And the nursing school was self-funding.  It was self-funding because the university didn't want to spend a penny on it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3782.88,3789.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  Somewhat different reason.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3789.09,3791.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, really.  And so the medical school scorned us just as much as, you know, we scorned them.  And so we were isolated within the medical community, as well as within... Because most universities... This is -- you know, our relationship to the university -- the nursing school is very unique.  We are the only university nursing school that is independent of the medical.  There's either -- they're either a department of the medical school or they're part of a consortium of medical sciences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3791.53,3822.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3824.08,3824.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And we'd be like the pub -- school of public health is to the medical school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3825.01,3829.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yeah. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3829.24,3829.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: A department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3829.4,3829.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So I suppose at times that can be a strength, but at other times it can be a real disadvantage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3829.56,3837.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.  But it was -- it was very interesting to me when... You see, so I was sort of aware of a lot of these dynamics before... I didn't know the thing about the law school, but I did know about the medical school and the nurse... And the -- when the school was sent up, the benefactors -- I can't remember what foundation it was.  They gave the money.  They insisted that it had to be a self-support -- and they wanted it to be self-support because they thought that it was the only way that it could survive and not be just consumed by the -- by the medical school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3837.41,3874.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Why did you -- after your -- your ten or 12 years or so at the School of Nursing, set your sights on administration in the sense that... Or at least set your sights at something that was more central to the university?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3874.62,3896.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, it sort of came in pieces.  I didn't, you know, consciously set out do that.  I wanted to be -- you know, I got bored with the School of Nursing, a little bit, to tell you the truth.  I mean... You know, after -- after a certain number of years, you know, you go to the -- you go to the faculty meeting, you hear the same thing, it's the same issues.  Even though there are new students, I mean, it's the same... You know, so it gets to be same old, same old after a while.  So I was looking for something a little more exciting.  And Donna Deers was the dean and she was very interested in integrating more of the university.  And so she had a relationship with Robin Winks (sp?).  Because she was a dean, you know, she sort of got to know a lot of people at the university.  She got to know Robin Winks, who you probably -- that was before your time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3896.23,3951.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: He's a historian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3951.65,3952.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He was a historian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3952.4,3952.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  I know -- I know his name.  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3952.85,3954.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But he was more British than British.  I'm telling you, he was just like amaze -- I mean... And she discovered that he was -- that he was a kit -- she was from Wyoming and he was also -- I don't know, he was from Colorado or Wyoming.  He was also a farm kid from out west.  You know, he had just taken on all of these character -- and she thought that was like hysterical and he thought that was really funny, too.  And in fact, one time they went to a big function at the president's house and... I can't remember.  It was -- I guess it was white tie and it said something.  I don't know how it's phrased.  That you could wear awards, you know, your medals or, you know, whatever.  If you were a knight, you know.  And then he came wearing -- wearing his Eagle Scout uniform with all of his badges.  And everyone was so hysterical.  They thought that was just the funniest thing they had ever seen.  And she really liked him and he liked her, so he said to her -- she said to him one day, \"Why don't you ever appoint any women as -- from the School of Nursing as fellows?\"  And he said, \"Well, just name somebody and I'll do it.\"  So she named me and I went.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=3954.5,4037.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And which college was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4037.07,4038.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: In Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4038.98,4039.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You went to Berkeley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4039.66,4040.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Berkeley College.  And that's how I really started with the university.  And when I went to the first fellows meeting -- she said to me, \"If you do it, you have to go to every meeting and -- because we're not going to waste this opportunity.\"  Right.  So I went and I -- I walked in.  You know, I dressed my best.  People still dressed up kind of, you know, at the fellows meetings and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4040.18,4067.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: This would have been about 19...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4067.8,4069.28"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was after I was tenured, so it's 1980 -- it had to be...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4069.3,4076.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: '84 or so?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4076.59,4076.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  Maybe the early '80s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4076.79,4080.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible), yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4080.16,4080.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.  Anyway, there they all were.  They were all drinking heavily, which I discovered is a major point of -- I mean, and sort of talking to each other.  And of course, they weren't friendly to me at all.  The only women that were there was -- Prish Pierce (sp?) was the dean of the college and she was there.  The dean always gets to go.  And then they didn't have wives or anything there.  So I was really -- you know, not only was I from the medical side of things, I was a woman, I didn't know anybody.  They all just talked to each other.  And so I was really intimidated the first time I went.  But I think after like the first two times... Maybe it was after the first time I went.  You know, I just sort of wandered around trying to, you know, make friends with people.  I realized that a lot of them talked business because they were... I mean, their fac -- departmental business because they were really socially incompetent, a lot of them.  They were -- they didn't know how to make small talk.  They didn't know how to just relax and be not business.  And so I got a little less scared of them and I thought, you know, they're -- they're shunning me because they don't know how to deal with me.  So I said, \"Well, I'm just going -- I'm just going to get to know them.\"  And so I'd walk up to a group of... And I discovered the thing to do.  I was very cute in those days, too.  I'd walk up to a guy and I would -- that I didn't know and I'd put out my hand and make him shake my hand and I'd look him in the eye.  And, you know, I'd introduce myself.  And I'd say, you know, \"What department are you in?\"  And then I'd engage him in talking about, you know, himself.  And that always worked.  You know, and so they kind of got to like me.  You know, I mean, like I was kind of cute and I think they were flattered, you know, that a woman was interested in them.  And I could make small talk, which most of them couldn't do.  And I -- at that -- those meetings, I got to be really good friends -- I started to walk home, because he lived right across from me in the apartments.  Frank Turner (sp?), who was a member of the fellowship.  I became very good -- and we used to laugh our heads off.  He also thought... I mean, I think he described them as a bunch of stuffed shirts. You know, I mean, he thought that they were very stuffy people.  And we'd -- you know, we'd be half drunk and we'd come home and we'd be making fun of people.  And, you know, we kind of -- we got to be really good sort of pals, you know, about it.  And we went to the fellowship together.  So that's how I started.  It wasn't really that I intended to be in administration.  And once somebody knows you, because they were starting to become very concerned about sort of diversity --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4082.19,4243.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4243.9,4244.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- in the university, then... I wasn't appointed to any committees then.  It was when... Robin was going to go on leave and they were about... Bart Giamatti was the president and they were about to... I must have been on a committee, because I had known him from some committee work that I was doing.  Oh, yes, there was some kind of a committee that's -- it's like town and gown relations.  It's a long standing committee and it's not really a serious -- it's not really a serious committee, but it's more of a show kind of a thing.  And the president and the provost were on it and I was on that committee and I got to know them.  Oh, and I got to know the president, because -- what was her name?  She was in sociology.  She went to -- she was the chairman of the committee.  She went to Harvard, and at that time she was doing a lot of -- she was on leave for part of the year and she was at Harvard.  And she had me appointed as the chairman of the committee.  I can't even remember what our mission was.  And I was so irritated because, you know, it was supposed to be -- I took it very seriously.  I didn't realize that it wasn't that important a committee.  And Bart Giamatti --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4244.74,4325.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think that was why you were on it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4325.78,4327.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4327.11,4327.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Because a woman -- a woman --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4327.23,4329.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4329.28,4329.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4329.4,4329.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It didn't make any difference.  And here I thought I was important, you know.  Bart Giamatti and Bill... Oh, god, what was his name?  Anyway, the provost would sit at the meeting and they would sit together at one end of the table.  And I realized when I was just a member of the committee, that they would bring their office work, and they would just sit there and they would sort of, you know, joke together and do their office work.  And when I got to be chairman of the committee, I said to myself, \"What the hell, you know?\"  I sort of started the meeting by saying that I wanted everybody's full attention and that I wanted people to close their folders that they had brought from their offices and put them aside, because we were going to attend to business.  And Bart Giamatti just cracked up.  He thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard.  I can't believe, right now, that I even did that.  But I figured what have I got to lose, you know.  I'm going to let them disrespect me, or I'm going to assert myself.  And, you know, so get rid of me from the committee, they get rid of me from the committee. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4329.52,4397.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so I kind of caught his eye and then when they -- when Robin was going to go on leave and there was about to be a strike, they had to get a tenured faculty member in those days to -- the only ones that could be a master.  And I'm sure they went through the whole list of the fellowship.  They were about to have a strike on January 1st and Yale strikes were very, very deadly and unpleasant.  Very, very bad relationship between the union and administration.  And it was really a nightmare when they had -- when they had a strike.  And so they finally came to me and Bart asked me to do it and I said I would do it.  So I was the acting master in Berkeley.  And on January 3rd, the union settled, so there was no strike, and it was just a regular year, and there I was, ensconced in the master's house, the master of Berkeley for the term.  And I was in seventh heaven.  I thought that was really fantastic.  That was before --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4398.76,4467.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What a lucky break you had not having to deal with a strike.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4467.26,4469.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You betcha, because it would have buried me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4469.66,4471.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4471.65,4471.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, I'm sure I would never have been able to deal with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4471.77,4474.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I remember Kathy Skinner (sp?), who was one of the -- she was the second master, female master, and she was master during one of the strikes, and she told me quite a lot about what it was like just trying to keep things going while that was going on, and how difficult it was for a woman master to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4474.16,4495.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Very hard.  Very hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4495.85,4497.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4497.21,4497.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, it would have been -- it would have been very, very difficult.  But as it happened, it turned out very well and because I had been very active in the fellows, I knew how to treat the fellows.  We did some really -- we did some really fun things.  And the administrative assistant, whose name I can't remember, who had been very active in the union, liked me a lot and she liked the idea that there was a woman in the college, and so she really went out of her way to give me tips on things that I could do that would be very popular with the students and with the faculty.  And one of the things that we -- we did, I thought of with the fellows.  It was so much fun.  David Swenson, you know, is a big finance person.  He was a fellow of the college and, you know, some of the colleges, and in fact, like the law school, they used to have wine tasting evenings, you know, occasionally.  Very elegant.  And, in fact, they -- I know that SOM, when they started it, one of the things that they had, it was not so inform -- I mean, it was not curriculum, but they would have wine tastings because if their students were going to go into the business world, they had to know about fine wines and everything.  So David and I got together and we did -- he did a beer tasting.  We got all these -- and we did it in the master's house, and it was so much fun, and we had such a great time.  It became sort of a tradition.  He was just a young guy at the time, too.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4497.33,4591.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So -- and then we did a lot of fun things with the students.  And they needed a new master for Saybrook at the time and Bart chose me.  And I know he chose me because he knew me, and because I had been through a term, so they saw that I could manage it.  But it was much harder being... I mean, it's much harder than being temporary, to be there full-time.  And things became much more difficult in the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4592.32,4621.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.  That was, again, another time of financial restrictions, wasn't it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4621.78,4626.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, they were -- it was financial restrictions, but the biggest thing that affected the undergraduate life is that the university was really forced to stop winking at the drinking age laws in Connecticut and they couldn't allow their students, the undergraduates, to drink freely at university functions.  And that, of course, made a tremendous change in undergraduate life, a lot of which centered around drinking.  They did away with a lot of traditions that they had that centered around drinking.  And it became really hard, because then we had to be kind of enforcers.  And then everybody was concerned about liability.  You know, if a student is drunk on -- from, you know, university liquor and injures themselves or somebody else.  You know, so it became a different era.  You know, instead of being like a pal to the students, you became more like a -- you know, I mean, a superintendent, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4626.58,4695.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was this more difficult, do you think, because you're a woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4695.97,4698.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4698.26,4699.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: To have to do that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4699.29,4699.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was really hard.  It was very hard.  Very, very hard.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4699.57,4703.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you ever have -- did you ever have episodes with -- with students where...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4704.63,4711.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: The first year that I was there.  In fact, I think it might even have been the first time.  It was really terrible.  I was -- I took it seriously.  A lot -- some of the master's managed to hide it and still let the students drink.  One of the masters, in fact, was notorious for not only letting the students drink in his hou -- he used to have a lot of functions in his house, which sort of made it more -- a little more private.  But he was very free with drugs and everybody knew it and everybody knew that he did that and he sort of got away with it.  But I just felt I couldn't get away with anything like that.  So I was very strict that only, you know, overage students could -- could have drinking parties.  But, of course, the students, because they have their private rooms -- we couldn't have it at the big parties.  And in a way, it became much worse, because when you had the big parties, you can monitor them because they're out in the open.  You can sort of see who's too inebriated.  You can see who's drinking.  But when they go underground to their rooms, you can't see what they're doing.  And so I had -- in fact, I was -- I was away.  My dean was supposed to be -- I was married at the time and my husband had the church in Marlborough and so I had gone up there for Saturday night to be there for Sunday services.  And I heard from my dean that a student from another college, (inaudible), had -- a freshman, had been at a drinking party in the college.  A private drinking party.  We didn't know that at the time.  We thought it might have been... Because there was also a public party.  And had gone home very inebriated and his roommates had been -- watched over him.  They were worried about him because he was so drunk.  They had been playing drinking games where they were downing shots of tequila.  And they put him to bed and they kept checking on him, and they knew that he was OK because his breathing was so heavy.  They didn't realize that he was in respiratory failure, and in the morning he was dead. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4711.9,4851.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: My goodness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4851.82,4852.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was -- it was a terrible tragedy.  I mean, it was totally preventable.  If they had taken him over to the -- because -- but because we were being strict about enfor -- and they thought that, you know, that he'd be in trouble, that they would be in trouble.  And so instead of him getting the medical help that he needed, he just died unnecessarily.  And, you know, they were very worried that the family -- you know, there was a police investigation then and there was a university investigation and I felt (inaudible), you know, even though, you know, I hadn't been there.  Our dean, I found out afterwards, was an alcoholic himself.  He never -- he never monitored any of the things that the students were doing.  He just -- he drank.  He either drank by himself or he went and drank with them, and that was just really a terrible situation.  I went many times and actually broke up private parties in the room.  I'd get the university police to go with me and I would just tell them they had to stop because it was against the law.  And of course, the students really hated me for doing that, but I just felt that, you know... Especially after someone died.  I just couldn't allow them to drink that way.  And I just didn't know what -- you know, how to handle it.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4852.84,4937.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And really nobody helped you in the university.  It was like, you know, every man for himself.  I mean, people... On one hand, they wanted you not to get the university exposed to any liability.  On the other hand, they wanted you to keep the students happy.  So it was like a no win, you know.  So that was very, very hard.  Very, very hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4937.43,4959.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think that the male students had a different attitude to you than the girls?  Because the -- because, of course, the university was well and truly mixed by that time.  Did they have different expectations of you as the master?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4959.58,4978.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I don't think... I think actually the women were harder to deal with then the -- then the men.  I had to stop a lot of traditional... Well, some things I wanted to stop.  When I first came to the college, there was this long, beautiful dining hall, and there was always a group of male athletes that would sit at the very first table as you walked in the door.  And I found out pretty quickly that the reason that they sat there is because as any wom -- a woman came in -- a female student came in through the door, that they would -- they would rate them, you know, on a scale of one to ten on their -- their looks and they'd shout out the number.  And it was very intimidating for the women.  But nobody ever told me and nobody ever complained.  See, I think the women's attitude that were at Yale at the time was that they wanted to be one of the boys.  They wanted to tough it out and not, you know... So I told them that that was totally unacceptable, and that if I saw it happening again, that I was going to discipline anybody.  And so they really resented that.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=4978.27,5052.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then the other thing that they -- they didn't like at all is that they used to play stickball and there was two courtyards.  One was called a stone courtyard because it was all paved.  They used to play stickball over there and the highest score that you could get was to break a window.  You know, I mean... And I couldn't allow them to do that.  Not only that, they terrorized the courtyard, which is where most of the people had to walk in.  And the students who weren't involved in, you know, sort of the rowdy stickball were afraid to walk across the courtyard, and they again sort of terrorized women, and I made them stop doing that.  I said that it was off limits.  And so it was... I really -- I was in a very adversarial position with them.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5053.74,5093.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I remember when -- they complained about me when I was up for reappointment.  The students did.  And I remember one woman that I had been fairly close to.  You know, and I said, you know... You know, \"Why?\" basically.  And she said, \"You're not motherly enough.\"  And I said to her, \"Why did you ever expect that you were going to get a mother?\"  And I said, \"How do you think I ever became a tenured faculty at Yale?  Did you think I did it by being motherly?\"  And she just didn't -- she didn't even understand what I was talking about.  But I was very hurt.  And I thought that they were holding me to a different standard than they were holding... You know, if the men were not fatherly or if they were, you know, sort of aloof with them --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5093.54,5153.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Or enforcing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5153.15,5154.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Enforcing, they just sort of admire -- I mean, admired them because they were strong men, I guess.  And on me, it was like... You know, it was again a sort of a no win situation.  If I -- if I... You know, I don't think anybody ever... Because I think these students thought that it -- and the other thing that happened while I was there is that they renovated the college and they made a big botch of it and the rooms were just terrible.  Oh, no, they didn't renovate them.  They -- because the fire laws, the town, I guess, wanted to enforce the fire laws, they had to cut doors in the suites so that they could have access.  And it messed up the privacy in the rooms and everything, and I think the students really resented it and thought that I should have been able to do more.  I mean, there was really nothing that I could do, you know.  I mean, it was... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5154.79,5205.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So there were a lot of things that central administration dictated that I felt I had to do that they gave me no help with and that put me in an adversarial position with the students.  So -- you know, it was really a very difficult position to be in.  And because I wasn't an FAS faculty member, none of them knew me as a professor.  So I didn’t have that, you know, endearing relationship or admiring relationship that they had because, you know, I was like nothing to them.  And in addition to being a woman.  It was really, really hard.  It was very hard.  I didn't -- I didn't enjoy it at all.  I really didn't enjoy it at all.  And there were lots and lots of problems.  There were lots of... I mean, sexism problems and racism problems.  You know, that were all -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5205.75,5264.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What -- in relation the -- amongst the undergraduate population, would you say?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5264.15,5268.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5268.49,5268.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5268.62,5269.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And you couldn’t address these things openly, but you know, you could -- I could see them and they would -- it would break my heart to see these things happening and I'd try to, you know, do some things to help the students that I thought were struggling to make a better life, and they weren't necessarily the popular students.  I mean, I had students -- I had everything.  I had sexual harassers.  I had -- I had eating disorder students I was afraid were going to be dead in their room.  I had -- one student had -- he was drug dealing out of his room.  I mean, it was... I had freshmen girls fighting with each other and biting each other.  I had to -- I had to call them in and say -- like toddlers and say, \"No biting allowed.\"  And then -- it was so ridiculous.  I mean, you know, on one level it was like lofty.  \"Oh, you're a master of a college.\"  On another, it was so absurd.  It was like kindergarten, you know.  '","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5269.87,5330.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, and it was -- no, I really didn't -- I really didn't like it.  I loved sort of the prestige of it and I loved the fellows, but I had a really tough time with the students.  And I had one student who tried to commit suicide.  It was a very serious attempt.  He went down to the railroad station and he climbed up the pole and he touched a live wire.  And the only reason that he wasn't electrocuted is that -- I guess his hand must have convulsed and he touched it the second time and the jolt restarted his heart, otherwise he would have been dead.  And I remember going over to the emergency room, and he was -- he was in very bad condition and I had to call his family in California and tell them.  And many times I went over to... I mean, the students didn't really know this.  I always -- they call you if there's -- a student is in the emergency room and many times -- there was like a totally drunk student in the emergency room and I'd have to go over and see them and see if they were all right and decide whether, you know, they were injured and I had to call their parents.  And I just felt it was a terrible burden.  I don't know if the other masters dealt with it differently.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5330.71,5405.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I wonder... I wonder if... My understanding of the history of the masterships was that the major criteria -- well, there were two criteria that had to be met.  First of all, you had to be fac -- you had to be tenured.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5405.75,5420.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Tenured.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5420.54,5420.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And secondly, you had to be married.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5420.67,5422.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5422.48,5422.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I just wonder if -- if it's a male master -- the male master has a wife, is that wife involved?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5422.64,5431.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: The wife --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5431.35,5431.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Does that make a difference?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5431.82,5432.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It certainly does, because the men all had their wom -- their wives that were full-time supporting them, and working, and baking cookies and, you know, mothering the students, you know, and that was their role to do, where --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5432.87,5444.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Whereas your husband was working (inaudible) -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5444.94,5446.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: My husband was working.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5446.06,5447.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5447.49,5447.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He wasn't even living in the college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5447.61,5449.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5449.28,5449.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And it was... Yeah, it was really, really, really difficult.  I mean, and you still had to do all the other things like, you know, college seminars and activities and speakers.  And so you were doing the academic things, as well as you were trying to run this big, unruly household with a lot of restrictions.  And Benno Schmidt was the president then, and he had -- did not have a clue as to how the college worked or the faculty of arts and sciences.  I mean, he was a lawyer, aristocratic lawyer through and through.  He was clueless and he was a total failure with the faculty, and he provided no... See, I thought... In fact, when Bart Giamatti left, I said, \"That's not fair.  You recruited me here and you knew it was going to be a hard job, and you left.\"  And he said, \"Well, you know, that's the way things are.\"  You know, he went off to be a baseball commissioner, and then... I always felt badly because he only lived a few -- few years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5449.44,5515.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5515.04,5515.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You know, he died.  But, you know, it was... He was more willing to be -- to sort of include... John Wilkinson (sp?) was the university secretary.  He was -- he was kind of cute, too.  He was nice to me because he was a Roman Catholic, and I was a Roman Catholic, and there weren't very many Roman Catholic -- practicing Roman Catholics in the university.  So he was sort of nice to me.  But he [niffed?] me because we were both going to Thomas Moore.  This was before I was a master.  Or maybe it was after I was a master.  No, it was before I was master, but when I was already sort of, you know, getting into stuff in the college.  He had the nerve to tell me that -- that they forgave me because I was divorced.  And I felt like saying to him, \"Stick it up your ass.\"  You know.  I mean, who are you to judge me, you know, in any way?  I mean, I was just like horrified, you know, and I thought...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5515.16,5572.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So there were no divorced male faculty?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5572.99,5574.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I don't -- well, nobody -- not Catholics.  Catholics weren't allowed to be divorced.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5574.64,5579.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Not Catholic groups.  Yes, yes. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5579.49,5581.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: In those days, I mean.  Yeah.  I mean... And I just looked at him.  It was absolutely ridiculous.  It's not that there weren't divorced faculty and weren't -- that the married faculty weren't, you know, running around with women all over the place.  And I just looked at him.  It was so absurd for him to say that to me and so patronizing, I thought.  I mean, it was just shocking to me.  I mean, it sort of revealed that someone that I thought was, you know, sort of -- we had a friendly, collegial relationship, that it wasn't really at all.  You know, not at all.  That was really -- that was really bad.  So... But anyway...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5581.04,5619.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Were there any -- any women fellows?  Or indeed, were there any other women masters at the time you were master?  No?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5619.37,5627.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  Katherine Skinner (sp?) had been there.  Hadn't even been any in the medical -- Katherine Skinner --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5627.85,5632.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5632.06,5632.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- was there and Diana Kleiner had done it for a term and left because she couldn't tolerate it.  I was the only -- I was the only one, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5632.98,5646.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you have any help from the other masters?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5647.01,5649.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Not at first, no.  But then some of them were very -- some of them were very kind, but they were... You know, again, they were people that were clueless, too.  It wasn't -- you know, they were sort of... Like Henry Turner was a master.  I don't know if you know him.  He's an emeritus professor in the history department now.  But he was a very crusty guy.  You know, he was... He was OK but, you know... It wasn't like somebody that you could like turn to and... You know, we used to have social things together, but... And Robin was (inaudible) was just always doing his thing, you know, his little silk thing in his suit, his white suit.  He was just... He was just amazing.  I kind of liked him but he -- he didn't like me so much after I had -- because when I... This is funny.  When I was going to go to be master so he could go on leave and I was going to live in his house, right, and it was all arranged.  He says to me, \"Oh, by the way, I'm leaving my dog.\"  He had this big dog, this big.  A Labrador retriever.  And I was so flustered.  I didn't even know what to say. And then I thought about it and I said, \"What the hell?  I'm going to be a dog sitter?  I'm supposed to be the master of this college.  I'm going to take care of his dog?\"  So I called him up and I said no to the dog.  I made an excuse.  I said, \"My son is really allergic to, you know, dogs.\"  (inaudible).  And I said, \"I'm not taking care of the dog.\"  And he flipped.  He was really irritated at me.  But I said to him, \"So.  I'm going to be the master, I'm going to be the master.  I'm not going to be the dog -- I'm not the house sitter.  I'm not the house sitter.\"  So he placed the dog out in the country somewhere and he was never warm to me.  And his wife, Averil (sp?), was really -- she didn’t like me at all.  Not at all.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5651.36,5775.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: In fact, I'll tell you something that I know for a fact was true that nobody knows.  Towards the end of the time that we were there, he came back for commencement and he stayed in the guest suite.  And he and Averil stayed in the guest suite, which opened right into the house.  And, you know, we were friendly to them.  They stayed in the guest -- I mean, we weren't like intimate.  He came back because there were students of his that were graduating.  And when I came back after all the commencement activities, there had been... I went to my bedroom and my jewelry case was open and there were things missing from it.  So I went down -- I called the pol -- you know, university police and it looked like either they had been opened or someone had opened the French doors downstairs in the living room.  The only things that were missing were -- and some of my things were strewn around.  Were my Smith college pin, and my nursing pin, and my Yale pin.  And I thought about afterwards and I said, \"If somebody broke into this place, they would have taken something other than that.\"  And I thought and I thought about it.  Who'd have access.  And it was Averil.  I know it was Averil.  She was mad that -- she was so irritated at me.  We were sleeping in their bedroom, you know, I'd taken over the house, she was like a guest in the house.  She -- I knew that she really disliked me and she drank a lot, and so I figured that she had just drunk a lot and that she had gone in and been really pissed, and that she had taken things that were not of a lot of value but were of sentimental value.  And to be so selective as to what they took.  And we never spoke about it or anything.  But -- and the university police just kind of -- I think they probably came to a similar conclusion. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5775.35,5905.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was someone on the outside.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5905.31,5905.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did -- do you think that being a woman in that kind of position, that sometimes it's not just the men you have to contend with, but it's their wives?  That the wives see you as a threat?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5905.83,5923.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yes, yes.  It was very -- I wasn't friendly with... You know, it wasn't just the wives to contend with.  I really had -- I really felt that I couldn't allow myself to be intimate with their wives because that's what everybody expected.  That I would just be able to relate to the women.  That I had to relate to the men on their level.  And in fact, when I became master, they all -- people were... I mean, some of them were joking, but they -- they... People -- it was like even written.  I think it must -- must have been written somewhere that I was going to be the mistress of Saybrook and I was furious.  I said, \"I'm the master.\"  There's no such thing as mistress.  I'm the master, just like men.  And I forced everybody to call me master, which I think people also resented.  But it was... I mean, so it started out, you know, like sort of on a bad footing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5923.8,5987.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah, (inaudible).  In one of our previous conversations, I do remember you saying to me that one of the undergraduates... I don't know whether it was at Berkeley or was it Saybrook, said, you know, \"Having a woman master, was that an experiment?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=5987.78,6000.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6000.1,6000.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Some kind of an experiment.  Is that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6000.19,6001.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6001.93,6003.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6003.11,6003.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  It was... It was just -- it wasn't what I thought it was going to be.  And I think if Bart had been there, I think he was very kind and I think he would have helped me, because he was -- he was the kind of person... In fact, before he appointed me master, he called me in and he said he wanted to... That there was something really important, there was an important favor that he had to ask of me. And that the -- the dean -- it wasn't a dean, but he was resident faculty.  He was in the dean's office.  An elderly bachelor.  Not elderly, but middle aged bachelor who was living in the college and the university was really his life.  And that, you know, it's up to the master to appoint the people who reside in the colleges.  And he said, \"Would I take care of him because he really didn't have a life outside of the university and that he needed someone to be kind to him, protective to him.\"  And I promised him that I would, you know, make a place for him, you know, as long as -- as (inaudible) do there.  And I thought that that was a very kindhearted thing of -- you know, to... And so I thought that there was going to be, you know, somebody that I could talk to frankly and that... You know, and the fact that he didn't order -- you know, say, \"I'm going to put this place by some kind of legislative act.\"  He asked me to -- you know, to be kind.  He recognized that it would be a burden to me, you know, to do that.  And it was.  Because he was sort of a crusty guy and I had to -- you know, I had to socialize with him a lot.  But he was -- he was -- he died there, in fact, when he was... He died in the courtyard.  He had a heart attack.  I had his funeral at Saybrook.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6003.6,6122.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And when I was at Berkeley and sort of jumping around a little bit... I got married when I was at Berkeley.  I decided that -- that was such a beautiful house and I wanted to make it be really festive and to do something for... So Prish Pierce, who was the dean, got married for -- I think it was the third time she was married.  And we had -- I had a party for her in the master's house and the administrative assistant that had been so kind to me, she got married and let them have their wedding reception in the house.  So, I mean, that wasn't just faculty.  It was all, you know, union people.  Union -- they were big union.  And then when I got married, I had -- I got married at Yale and then I got -- we had the reception in the house.  So the term that I was there, we had three weddings at the house, which was, you know, like an unheard of thing.  You know, it made people sort of think about the college in a different way.  But then when I went to -- and so it was very festive and it was very nice.  And then I went -- it was just really hard when I went to Saybrook.  And I was lonely -- I was lonely without my husband and I had... You know, I had a teenage son who was in college and it was a worry for me with him running around with the students, with, you know, any number of opportunities to drink and have access to drugs.  It just wasn't... It wasn't a good thing.  So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6122.33,6212.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Why -- why did you... Given -- given that you -- it was a very mixed experience being master of Saybrook, why did you think that -- that maybe your next step was to remain in the central kind of core of the university rather than, as it were, scuttling back to the nursing school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6212.48,6235.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, first of all, I didn’t want to be... I didn't want to give up, you know.  And second of all, I thought that the provost's office was entirely... Because I was half in the provost's office and half in the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6235.97,6248.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: In the college?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6248.43,6252.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: In the college.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6252.12,6252.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6252.32,6252.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And then I was -- and then when...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6252.48,6254.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was that not making your job even more difficult?  I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6254.14,6256.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, it was really hard because I was in central administration, so some of those things like them playing stickball and breaking the windows, I was the one who was going to be worrying about the money to pay for, you know, those windows and those fire doors, you know, and everything.  So I was sort of seeing it from, you know, two perspectives and they didn't... And they didn't -- I was like in two different worlds.  But I must say it was because -- I think it caused some tension, but it also helped me in the office in a way, in a strange way.  People like Chip Long, you know, who are professional administrators who sort of are more old boy than old boy.  I was a master, you know, and I -- me and the provost, often we'd be talking about the colleges.  I could speak as an insider and he was only an outsider.  And I think he really hated me.  And I disliked him a lot, too.  I mean, it's not that I sort of threw it in his face, but that was the only area where I -- except for the professional schools, which he didn't really know that much about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6256.23,6333.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But as far as, you know, the college went, that I was really on the inside.  And I could -- when the provost's office wanted to do something -- and it was usually doing something to the master's.  They were going to cut their budget.  They were going to do this to them, they were going to do that to them.  I would tell them what the political climate was on the inside and advise them as to whether they should go or if they were going to not go or how they should do it.  And in that way, I was very useful to the provost because it made for a very good relationship with the... And actually, what the provost wanted me to do was to spy on the masters.  No, he did.  I mean, that was... True.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6333.36,6381.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Who -- who was that provost?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6381.13,6382.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was -- it was Frank Turner.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6382.94,6384.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, so Frank was there.  Oh, of course, of course.  Yes, that's right.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6384.79,6387.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  He wanted me to... He used to love it.  I'd come back and tell him all the gossip, you know, about what was going on.  But he felt it was important for -- it wasn't just gossip.  He thought it was important for him to know what was going on within the faculty and within the colleges.  And I did.  I was right, you know, at the heart of it.  And so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6387.76,6403.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And you said -- you used the word 'spy', which is a very derogatory term to use.  Somebody else might have said, \"Well, that's politics.  It's about useful information.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6403.96,6420.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I -- I felt -- I felt that it was spying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6420.08,6421.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6421.19,6421.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because I felt --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6421.71,6422.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I wonder if a man -- if a guy would have felt the same sense of --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6422.68,6427.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Maybe not.  They would have thought that it was politics, because it's like departmental politics, right.  I mean, I know that -- I know that people tattle on each other all the time.  Because when there would be some kind of strife going on within a department, we'd hear all the sides of it and everybody would tell all the dirt about everybody else, you know.  I mean... And they -- they just thought it was politics.  They thought it was business as usual. But I felt -- I guess I felt like I was... On one hand, I was like part of the masters, and then on the other hand, I was betraying them.  Because -- oh, they used to have representatives from the central administration sitting in on the council of masters.  Chip used to sit in and Lloyd Suttle used to sit in.  But when there were certain kinds of business, they had -- it was closed doors to them.  They'd have to leave and I would stay.  So, you know, I had the real story on everything and they only had what was supposed to be the official version, you know, of things.  So I did feel like... I did feel... I guess I didn't feel completely at home in either world and so... And I felt a lot of loyalty to Frank, because I had been a friend of his and his wife was such a dear friend.  I stopped bringing information back in the same way after he stopped being provost.  When Judy Rodin was there, I would -- I wouldn’t have helped her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6427.89,6516.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So you were there when Judy was provost?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6516.36,6519.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yes.  She was... God, she was such a bitch.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6519.57,6522.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Let me -- before we get on to that, let's deal with the first part of your time in the provost's office, when Frank was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6522.17,6532.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6532.51,6532.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You've already said that Frank and especially his wife was a close friend to you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6532.67,6539.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6539.55,6539.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Would you say that that was, in a way, how you got into -- how you got the entrée into that world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6539.92,6547.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, I know that that's how I got the entrée.  I was -- I was a master already but Nancy told me afterwards -- his wife.  She told me afterwards that she -- I mean, Frank didn't tell me this.  She said that when Frank got into the provost's office, he sort of saw right away that there was an area that was really neglected and he felt that was the professional schools, the smaller professional... Not the medical school or the law school.  That the provost's office didn’t really have a good relationship with those schools and didn't really know a lot about them and wasn't really being effective.  And so he was puzzling over what he could do, how he could reassign things or how he could appoint somebody.  And Nancy said -- she said to him, \"Well, why don't you appoint Ann?\"  And he was -- you know, he said to her something like, \"Oh, that was -- that's just brilliant.\"  You know, I mean, it hadn't occurred to him.  So he wouldn’t necessarily... It was really -- she was the one who kind of did that.  And he called me in and asked me if I would do it and I had to go and see Chip Long.  Chip had to interview me because he had to OK me.  And I can remember that even then, he was very cool.  I dressed up in a really nice little dress and went in and it was very polite to him.  He was very polite to me.  I could see that this was going to be very difficult because not only was I a woman and he wasn't sure that he was going to have any control over me, but also because it was kind of, though it wasn't overt, it was kind of acknowledging an area of his failure, because he was in charge of everything, and he was a big overseer of the provost's office.  So that he hadn't been given the schools attention, and so he -- I got all the professional schools.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6547.11,6664.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: We decided -- we worked out what my \"portfolio\" was going to be.  And at the time, he wouldn't let me have the school of drama because he loved hanging out with the drama school.  There were a lot of perks in doing that and you know, he's... So OK, he could have this drama school.  Though it didn't make any sense, you know, for someone not to have... For me not to do all of them.  And he -- and he wouldn't allow me to do SOM, because he also liked hanging out with those people, though eventually -- I think -- were those the years that Lloyd Richards was there?  The school of drama was a pretty exciting place at the time, too.  And I was sort of -- I was a little hurt and miffed that I wasn't going to have the pleasure of doing, you know, all of that.  And I got the art gallery -- I got all the schools and then their related departments.  And I don't remember how that happened.  I think it was sort of a mutual thing between -- that Frank and I talked out because I felt that to really work effectively, you had to have the whole discipline.  So if you were going to do the school of music, you had to have the department of music, too, because they weren't entirely separate.  I mean, even though a lot of the FAS faculty liked to think of themselves -- there isn't that much separation, even though there's the academic field.  They're still rely -- they rely on the performance people and the performance people rely on them for any historic... So that was a lot of fun for me because I got to know, I mean, a lot about FAS, which I knew nothing about and how it worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6665.01,6769.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So just for the record, which -- which of the units or schools were you -- did you have charge of?  That would have been music, as you said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6769.88,6781.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Music and the music department.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6781.35,6781.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Divinity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6781.63,6781.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Divinity and religious studies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6781.75,6781.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.  So you had the same sort of relationship -- music to the department of music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6781.99,6782.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.  Yes.  And religious studies and tangentially near east, because there was a lot of -- and I had Judaic -- you know, because I had Judaic studies within the Department of Religious Studies.  So I got near east.  And one of the other reasons -- it wasn't that it was so tangential -- near east was viewed as a very difficult department.  The faculty were very difficult.  And in those days --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6782.67,6816.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was that the Arab/Israeli war (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6816.97,6821.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, it was.  It was.  It was the Arab/Israeli war.  And, you know, people really in those days sort of scorned Arab -- I mean, they just thought it was not an important language.  And, you know, sort of archeologically, you know, the near east was interesting but, you know, they were considered in a world of their own.  And there were -- it was the Arab/Israeli wars between Judaic studies and that.  But they were -- they were a lot of fun.  They were fun people.  Some of them I knew from fellows and some of them I knew -- Bill Hallow, who was the Chairman of the Department for a while, and Ben Foster, I knew.  So I knew them socially and it was -- and we became really great friends.  Oh, my god, I can't remember.  They would take -- take me around and they would show me... I'd want -- you know, if I could express a lot of interest in their stuff.  Because I wanted to get a feel for what their scholarship was like and what they were doing.  He took me into Sterling, into like the bowels -- the depths of Sterling.  It was upstairs and they pull out all these draws and there were these little dry, clay tablets.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6821.96,6882.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: The Babylonian collection.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6885.95,6886.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, the Babylonian collection.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6886.61,6886.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: If he's on the third floor, is -- the (inaudible) floor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6886.85,6887.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, my god, yes.  You know, they would be in ecstasy showing me this wonderful piece.  And that one and I'd go, \"Oh, my god, this is what the hell they do all day, is to look at this stuff.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6887.33,6897.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So you had all that lot and then you'd have --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6897.89,6900.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: OK, then I had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6900.62,6901.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You did the nursing school obviously?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6901.9,6904.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I had the nursing school, obviously.  And I had... So let's see.  Music. I had forestry and because I had forestry, I did environmental studies, which was (inaudible) College.  I had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6904.4,6916.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: The galleries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6916.76,6917.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: The art galleries.  God, it seems like I had more schools than that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6917.91,6922.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6922.67,6922.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I had the British Art Center and the Yale Art Gallery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6922.79,6925.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[115:00]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6925.13,6925.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah, yeah.  It's quite a disparate group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6925.17,6929.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  And some of them were self-supporting schools.  Like forestry and nursing were self-support.  I didn’t have the law school because the law school, like the medical school, dealt only with god.  You know, I mean, they...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6930.55,6948.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you ever feel -- given that it's such a kind of, you know, hodge-podge of groups in a way, did you ever feel that you're like Cinderella in charge of all the Cinderella’s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6948.02,6958.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  Oh -- and yes.  Then I got -- I had noticed that I was getting more departments and that it was not coincidental that all the departments I was getting were departments that were very difficult to deal with.  Like German and... I mean, some of the people were really strange.  I mean, some of them were wonderful, wonderful people.  But all of the departments that people had were like a lot of difficulty dealing with because of the personalities and they would think of a reason why I should have that department.  And I had -- let's see, I had classics.  Why the hell did I have classics?  I know I had classics because they were having this ongoing war between an administrative assistant in the department who was totally incompetent and at war with the faculty, and she was highly union, and they couldn't figure out a way to get her out without, you know, getting into difficulty with the union.  So they assigned me -- and I did -- I can't remember what the solution was, but I did find a way to get rid of her.  So I got all of the really difficult -- but I gave them a lot of attention, and in a way...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=6958.08,7036.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Weren't they vulnerable --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7036.97,7037.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7037.92,7038.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- because this would have been a time when it was again retraction going on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7038.04,7041.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7041.17,7041.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So were they, in a way, more vulnerable than the big --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7041.32,7044.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7044.44,7044.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- the big hitters?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7044.6,7045.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.  Like, you know, history and English and... What was -- what was under fire in those days?  Sociology was under a lot of fire, but I wasn't really involved with that department, except tangent... I mean, I was sort of -- had a tangential interest in it, because I appointed a lot of women that I thought had been underappreciated to either be fellows or to have offices in the college.  Like Cynthia Russet (sp?) and, you know, Beatrice Bartlett.  And Cynthia's husband was in sociology, so I had kind of an interest in watching out for that department, though I wasn't, you know, really involved with them.  And I had like different pol -- they gave me the retirement policy.  They gave me... I didn’t have affirmative action but I had maternity policy, because nobody wanted to deal with all those angry pregnant women.  And actually, the women hated me, too, because they viewed me as the enemy, you know, because I was in administration and because I was in nursing.  They -- their attitude towards me was even more extreme than the men in that I couldn't --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7045.15,7122.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7122.85,7122.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- possibly understand what it's like to be a faculty of arts and science faculty member.  I don't know.  They thought it was like a piece of cake to become tenured, you know, on my side.  Like I couldn’t understand what it would be like to have to want to have children and be married and to try to get tenured.  And I had been through the exact same thing and they didn't know that I was really fighting for them on their side of things.  And I did affect a lot of improvements.  But --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7122.97,7154.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What -- what do you think --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7154.67,7154.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: They were just so angry.  They had to be angry at somebody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7154.81,7157.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7157.86,7158.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And they couldn't afford to be angry at senior faculty who really were going to have a say about their futures.  How could you be angry with someone who is going to be on your tenure review, you know, for example.  You'd have to come in and be angry in the office.  So -- but they were really a pain.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7158.02,7175.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: In what way do you think you influenced or affected change in that area of maternity leave?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7175.69,7185.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: We put -- instituted the family leave.  The other thing that we changed was that we included adoptive situations under the -- get the same benefits.  And the one thing I wasn't able to do is that the university lawyers insisted that it was -- it was... It was viewed as a medical disability.  And I made them change --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7185.15,7217.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You mean pregnancy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7217.73,7218.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Pregnancy.  And that's how the benefits were accrued to it.  And I made them at least take the language out, because I said that a pregnancy was a normal situation.  I mean, you could have an abnormal preg -- pregnancy.  And that they couldn't use that kind of language.  If they wanted to use that kind of mindset in terms of making sort of parallel benefits, but they couldn’t use that kind of language.  And I think the women sort of liked that.  And then I can’t remember.  There were some other things that -- that we did.  And a couple of times we had women who had -- did have difficulty – I mean, a lot of them were older.  I mean, they were under a lot of stress, and they would have difficult pregnancies and they would be bed rest or in the infirmary for -- and not be able to teach for a good portion.  And, you know, we made it easier for them to continue, not to have to go on to disability, but just to continue.  We would fill in for them.  And I remember the university was furious.  A couple of times we had -- they recruited women and the women didn’t tell them that they were pregnant and they would arrive, you know, fully pregnant and about to take their leave just as they were being started in the university.  And, you know, I always tried to make sure they were treated very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7218.28,7293.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: The other group that I took care of was... I can’t even remember what it was called.  Gosh, it was a gay and lesbian... But it’s -- what was the group?  Group?  Studies.  I guess it was gay and lesbian studies.  I don’t remember what they called it (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7293.93,7314.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, there was women’s studies.  I don’t know when gay and lesbian studies came up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7314.37,7316.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7316.28,7317.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Because it changed its name and number.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7317.97,7319.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, I know.  They kept changing the name, so... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7319.91,7322.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7322.03,7322.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I didn’t do women’s studies.  I did the gay and... We put through -- while I was in the office, we did the domestic partner benefit plan and I advocated for that.  I was very good friends with -- I had been interested in doing that.  I was -- just coincidentally, I was living in New Haven.  I -- at one point, I lived one door down from John Boswell and he was -- he was just... He was a wonderful... He was a dear, dear person.  And I just always felt that it was just criminal that he and his partner were not able to, you know, just sort of be fully engaged in the university.  And actually, the only way I was able to sell it to them is that we were starting to lose faculty recruitment to other places that were much more liberal, and so that’s why they finally caved in on that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7322.15,7380.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Since then, that argument has -- is used in other contexts, as well.  It was used in terms of re -- restructuring the tenure system last year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7380.29,7392.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7392.29,7392.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You know, that... It was perceived as putting Yale at a disadvantage in the market place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7392.88,7398.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.  And that’s the... I mean, there wasn’t really -- there really wasn’t any feeling that there was a human rights issue.  There were never any feelings that this was a human issue behind any of this and that’s why I didn’t like the administration.  I always kind of argued from that standpoint.  And I think that they felt that -- that was like a womanish kind of a position to take, that it was like a soft position to take.  And...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7398.83,7429.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/411","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you think, when you went into the provost’s office, and the culture in the Sander Administration, and was it one that was proactive or was it one that was simply doing what had to be done?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7429.24,7439.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/412","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7439.72,7439.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: In terms of how the world was changing around it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7439.84,7442.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, it wasn’t clear as to what it was going to be.  I think that they weren’t clear.  I think Frank wasn’t clear when he went in.  So it kind of evolved.  I mean, first it was just, you know, kind of getting things into an orderly condition, and there were a lot... Oh, the other thing I did was the residential colleges.  So I was in charge of the Council of Masters and all the residential colleges in there.  I can’t remember now all of them.  I had like a really big, diverse group of things that I did.  But it became apparent that... Well, first of all, then we moved quickly into the era of economy and there was the corporation mandate to cut the size of the FAS faculty by 10%, which precipitated -- which precipitated a war on... I can’t tell you how... I mean, it seemed to me like perfectly reasonable that that could happen, but the reaction of the FAS faculty was that -- it was to not cooperate.  It was like to the death and it was like you’re in charge of this university and you’re not -- and we’re going to show you, and they did.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7442.8,7534.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/415","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And it ended up with (inaudible) -- I mean, being a failure as a... He didn’t understand how to politically move within that.  Frank did, but he was handicapped by having Benno, who really couldn’t help and was a hurt to him.  And people just became enraged.  Enraged.  It was like... It was really unpleasant.  Because I used to go to the FAS faculty meetings and the relationship between... And when I went... I’m telling you... You know, we had a plan, you know, that was all done.  You had to go to your department and you had to tell them what the target was, you know, and it was like -- their reaction was -- they’d just laugh in your face, like, “You’ve got to be kidding.”  You know, there was obviously no -- no idea that any one was going to cooperate on any of this.  And so what we started to do was, by attrition, that when someone would leave, we would freeze the position.  So it was like a little war.  You know, it was just a war between the administration -- and that was -- that was really bad.  Except that I felt like advocating for -- I secretly advocated for some parts of the university that I felt really shouldn’t be... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7534.92,7624.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/416","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Like the collection of -- I did the collection of musical instruments.  Well, that was one of the first things that was targeted.  Get rid of them.  Sell all those rare instruments and use the building for something useful and we would save X amounts of dollars.  And I argued that absolutely not, that it was vital to both the department of music and the school of music, that people used those instruments.  That they weren’t just objects that people could come and look at, that they were vital to the scholarship of an important area of the university, and that it was for this small amount of money that we would say we would lose something really precious.  And we had a little war over that, but they kept the collection.  And the guy who was chairman of the collection of in -- instruments was like... He was just on my case all of the time.  And in fact, we made him -- I’m... The compromise is that I was able to save the collection by doing away with his administrative assistant, who unfortunately just happened to be his wife.  So it was like... And he never understood that I saved him.  He always saw that I hurt him.  You know, but you could never... I mean, that was just the way it was.  And so it was really, really difficult.  I mean, really, really difficult.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7624.18,7714.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you find it -- did you find it difficult -- and I’m kind of struggling with the best way to express this,  Did you find that you -- you -- you began to take these things personally, these attacks?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7714.2,7732.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah, it was pretty...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7733.47,7737.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7737.04,7737.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, but...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7737.16,7738.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/421","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, were (inaudible) stressed (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7738.2,7738.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/422","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, my god, I was so stressed out.  I realized afterwards that I was so stressed out, that I was just... I mean, I think we all were.  We were just... You know, we were living in such a great level of stress that you didn’t even know that you were stressed out.  You know, and it was just you could hardly breathe.  And it certainly was no fun, I mean, not being collegial with -- with people.  And I had formed a pretty close... Luckily, I had formed a pretty close relationship with a lot of the faculty, like the divinity school.  It was really... I got very close to a lot of people.  And a lot of the departments, too.  You know, religious studies, and ended up with, you know, near east, for example.  The school of music.  I had -- I had... So the way I handled it was that I would make -- I went out of my way to make personal relationships with the people, to try to get them to explain their field to me, and their work, and then I would sort of prom -- I mean, I didn’t really promise them, but I would make it clear to them I -- we’d -- I’d work at it until I felt I understood what the essence of the field was, and that they realized that I would protect that, and that, you know, there were some things that maybe would have to go, but that what made the field the field I would -- we would preserve.  And we would work to preserve it.  And I would -- I mean, I’m sure that’s why I didn’t last that long.  I would coach deans on how to present things to the administration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7738.43,7843.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/423","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And after a while, they got it that that’s what I was doing, and so when I -- when I left, the divinity school was also under review at the time and the university just had no appreciation for how distinguished... And this isn’t just because I was interested in religion.  How distinguished that divinity school was, nationally and internationally, and historically.  They just didn’t get it.  They just didn’t get it.  I mean, religious -- and part of that had been that there -- I think that split between religious studies and the divinity school had perpetuated sort of a sneering attitude on the part of FAS toward the divinity school.  They didn’t feel that their scholarship was as sound.  And I think that the people who were in -- stayed in the divinity school side of things view that the religious studies people were sort of like Judists, that they had stabbed them in the back in order to ensconce themselves into a nice little cozy department.  And -- and we were able... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7843.77,7914.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/424","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I was... I mean, here’s an example of what I was able to do.  I saw that they were going to come under review and I got it that the review was going to be very critical in advising the president on what to do.  And so I got them to make -- and it made a lot of sense because of his background, Frank Turner, to be the chairman of the committee.  And Frank, I knew, was very favorable toward the divinity school, and he appreciated the scholarship, because a lot of his scholarly areas overlapped a lot of the work that people were doing there.  And so, you know, they had -- he was very fair and very thorough but he was able to really make a case for the scholarly excellence of the divinity school.  And it also didn’t hurt that Rick was the president, and it would look really horrible for the first Jewish president to get rid of the divinity school.  So there was kind of a standoff there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7914.51,7980.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/425","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So -- but it was -- it was very hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7980.35,7984.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/426","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you enjoy reading the politics?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7984.83,7987.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/427","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Up to a point, and then when it got to be too stressful.  I kind of liked... For me, it became like a game that... I always had the kind of mind where I could -- I could grasp conceptually the whole and instead of looking at all the individual parts.  And so when -- the politi -- to sort of figure out how that was all interconnecting was very pleasing to me to do, actually.  I mean, actually working it all out and having to experience it personally was not so good, but I loved it, that sort of intellectual piece about figuring it all out.  And that’s why I think I was able to do a very good job for the provost’s office, because I wouldn’t -- I wouldn’t focus... I never kept my focus on the pieces.  I always looked at the whole.  And I think that’s what a lot of people in administration can’t do, that they can’t look at it organically.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=7991.74,8051.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/428","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: There’s not a lot of -- they say a lot of women can’t do that, either.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8051.98,8053.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/429","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8053.37,8054.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/430","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, it is always said that women tend to take a small piece and work on that, or maybe they’re sidelined into, you know, taking a small piece.  That they’re not often put in a position where they can -- they can see the whole and review and the whole.  I -- it just... When you say the word ‘game’, I always think of that as a very masculine way of approaching the way institutions work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8054.44,8088.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/431","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8088.43,8089.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/432","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That it is just a big game.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8089.43,8090.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/433","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8091.03,8091.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/434","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Obviously, with serious stakes and all that, but that there is -- there is that game and it’s who can play the game best is the one that wins.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8091.64,8100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/435","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8100.17,8102.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/436","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: They tend to the -- often the most effective.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8102.18,8104.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/437","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8104.57,8106.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/438","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And it’s just very interesting to hear you say that, that you describe it as a game.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8106.46,8108.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/439","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  And it... I mean, that’s the way I looked at it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8108.74,8112.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/440","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8112.02,8112.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/441","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And that’s probably why I could do it well, because I could see it from every... But that is a masculine way of looking at it, I guess.  But it was a lot of fun.  Because I felt that I learned so much.  I learned about fields that I had known nothing about.  And I felt like these were the best people in the world in that... I felt really very badly, that I felt it was really important for not just (inaudible) administration has gone, though I can understand why tenured faculty don’t want to do it, because you can’t possibly do your scholarship and, you know, be involved at the level that you need to be involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8113.0,8153.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/442","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But they don’t understand the essence of the operation.  They just... And there’s -- there has to be... There’s something there.  It’s not just the intellectual parameters of the fields, but there has to be a certain synergy between certain parts of the university to make it all come together, and that that’s not a formulaic kind of thing.  There’s a little bit of politics.  There’s a little bit of magic.  There’s a little bit of luck in that.  But it’s just beautiful when it all comes together.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8153.88,8189.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/443","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think because I had had... I think because of Smith and having had... Because they stress so strongly the nature of what liberal arts is and what that means to the life of the mind and to the life of the world, because I really believed that and I believe that that’s what Yale stood for.  And that that was more important than anything else that went on, and that saving money or getting the budget on target was... I mean, so they went off a budget.  I mean -- which is a terrible attitude to have for the provost’s office.  I mean, actually, they did budgets.  I know that they did budgets.  They did -- they put fake numbers in the budget, you know, to make it balance out, to show it to the corporation.  I know they did that.  So why not fight for, you know, what you think is the essence and the most important part of the university, regardless of, you know, what the instructions are as to what to cut.  You know, they could cut one service or something, I mean, you know, rather than... But I always thought that the library and the faculty were the most important things, that everything else could go and that that would be fine.  But that we had to spend a lot of money on the faculty, and treat them well, and make them able to do the things that they did.  I mean, even if they were a little strange sometimes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8189.53,8274.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/444","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Was it -- by the time you were in the provost’s office, which would be in the early ‘90s, maybe the early ‘90s, were you aware -- could you actually physically see the numbers of women coming in growing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8275.59,8290.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/445","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8290.89,8291.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/446","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And was it making a difference?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8291.61,8293.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/447","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Not really.  Because the numbers were growing, but the numbers were so small that it really didn’t make any difference.  I mean, even now, how many -- how many women are there in the history department?  Not that many.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8299.8,8316.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/448","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think -- I think overall, in the faculty of arts and sciences, I think women are at 33% of the faculty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8316.53,8321.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/449","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Which is much more than it used to be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8321.78,8323.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/450","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8323.79,8323.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/451","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think it was more like...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8323.91,8325.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/452","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Ten or fifteen, yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8325.18,8326.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/453","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was below 20%.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8326.06,8327.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/454","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8327.7,8327.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/455","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was ten -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8327.82,8328.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/456","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Ten to fifteen percent, I would have thought at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8328.66,8331.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/457","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, ten percent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8331.35,8332.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/458","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  And, of course, the other -- you know, the other -- the other fact is that with a number, the global figure might not look to bad, but most of those women indeed were -- were junior faculty.  They were not tenured.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8332.16,8342.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/459","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8342.53,8342.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/460","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Which I think -- I think of the 33 -- I think it’s 25% of the tenured faculty now is women.  Or 33% of the total faculty is women.  So there is -- there’s still that disparity.  It’s -- it’s eating... You know, it’s creeping up, but it’s fairly slow.  But I think that is the same in, I think, all the Ivies.  Numbers (inaudible) bigger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8343.38,8368.45"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/461","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And the... I thought that they should take... I thought it would make life less hell for the women, the junior women, if they had been more open to taking women with the idea that -- and to be more explicit about the fact that they were -- that this was Yale and that they were grooming women in the field and that these women didn’t necessarily have a shot at a tenured position.  Because it gave them -- it put them in such a terrible position of stress, you know, and I think if they had been more like the math department, you know, who had explicitly a small group of junior faculty that they were going to -- with their political networks to kind of place.  You know, I mean, sort of nationally --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8368.47,8426.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/462","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So send them out into the world?  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8426.51,8428.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/463","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8428.02,8428.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/464","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So send them out into the world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8428.14,8428.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/465","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8428.5,8428.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/466","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8428.65,8430.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/467","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: There would have been a different attitude.  But it was... You know, this... I mean, when you come and you have... Well, it’s not really ten years.  It’s like -- it’s really -- effectively you have like six years.  I mean, if you haven’t really been a star by then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8430.13,8447.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/468","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, even if you are a star.  I mean, in the old system, most -- many were culled.  I mean, I’ve heard this said to me even.  Many were culled, men and women, both as junior faculty, but very few were actually chosen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8447.65,8461.45"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/469","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8461.46,8462.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/470","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That the assumption was that you wouldn’t be tenured despite what promises might have been made to you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8462.9,8471.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/471","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, one of the reasons -- that’s right.  And, of course, they promised you everything when they -- you know, when they were trying to recruit you.  And I used to caution people to be really... To really think through it seriously.  There was one... One guy in the music department who was very, very talented.  I can’t remember what his field was.  But anyway, he was -- he was a junior faculty and he’d been doing very, very well and he had... And (inaudible), you know, about halfway through everything.  And he was out at Stanford and Stanford was trying to recruit him.  And he really wanted to be tenured at Yale.  And he asked my advice about what he should do, whether he should come back or whether he should accept the position.  And I told him... I said I wanted to talk to him off the record.  I (inaudible) to him, “Don’t be a fool.  Take the position at Stanford.”  I said, “Even if your goal is to come back to Yale, the only shot you have at it is to be recruited back as a tenured faculty already from Stanford.”  And he took the position.  He is actually very happy out there.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8471.62,8541.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/472","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But, you know, here’s -- the guy, they are stringing him along, you know, making him think that he has a chance.  And I knew that he didn’t have a chance because I knew -- you know, you know by their plan what it is that they’re -- what areas they’re planning to go in.  And no matter how great you are, if you’re not essential to where they want to go in the future -- or if they’re not up to speed already.  Like I can remember when they had, you know, young physics people in string theory.  Well, nobody knew where string theory was really going and it turned out to be like a brilliant area.  And so they weren’t going to necessarily nurture those people.  They might bring them in as junior people so that they could do a little work and sort of putz around.  But people just didn’t understand.  They didn’t understand that if you gave -- if you were really excellent and gave it your best shot, that you still might not have it, and that there was a position open.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8541.76,8594.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/473","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Of course, things changed when -- when I was actually in the provost office.  I can’t remember what year it is was that mandatory retirement was abolished.  Because when there was mandatory retirement, you could predict when things were going to come open because people had to go at 65 or whatever it was, 68.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8594.59,8615.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/474","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So that made things even more difficult?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8615.16,8617.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/475","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because people never retired.  I mean, how many elderly faculty do you know, probably.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8617.21,8623.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/476","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: How many young faculty do I know?  Not many.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8625.04,8627.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/477","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, really, if you look at it --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8628.4,8630.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/478","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8630.7,8630.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/479","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- it’s like a geriatric home.  I mean, most departments are.  It’s really until they can’t do it anymore, and some people kind of... I mean, they used to joke about it.  “Oh, they’re going to die in harness.”  And I -- oh, how pathetic, you know.  I mean, it was really... And they worried that people in -- you know, and Yale was too cheap to really offer a big incentive for you to go early.  And there was no reason to go.  Why would you go?  You can't be -- you can’t be disciplined or harmed in any way if you can’t teach very well anymore, because they don’t have any way... They don’t review tenured faculty teaching, right?  I mean, whatever the heck you do in the classroom, as long as you don't have a sexual harassment grievance against you.  I mean, anything goes, really.  And you don’t do anything that’s physically exerting.  You go and you sit in your office, right, and you go to classes, and you know, you toddle over to the library.  And now you don’t even have to go to the library.  You sit at the computer.  So it was really...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8630.86,8697.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/480","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8697.9,8698.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/481","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was really... I don’t think that the numbers of women... I don’t think that there’s anything significant.  And we certainly could not -- I know we failed many times to recruit really senior people because Yale just wasn’t as attractive as other places in terms of being nurturing to women.  So that the really top people, why would they come here when they could go someplace else that would be much more amenable to, you know, them and respect their careers more.  Some women didn’t really care that much.  And I noticed that we started to... I don’t know how frequent it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8698.02,8737.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/482","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think it’s probably a generational thing.  That there started to be like husband and wife teams.  Not necessarily even in the same discipline, but -- and so they’d recruit both of the faculty -- you know, the faculty.  And that was a much better deal for women, because they were able to negotiate something really nice when they came, because they also wanted their husband.  But a woman just on her own, I think it was really, really hard.  Really, really hard.  And most of the junior faculty that left left not feeling good about themselves or about Yale, and it was so unnecessary.  It was such a shame, really.  But...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8740.28,8782.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/483","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And it was because -- you know, if your perception of it was different, then it could have been a much more positive experience.  You know, like this was a -- this was a real training ground to do something spectacular.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8782.45,8796.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/484","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8796.3,8796.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/485","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Not necessarily here, but somewhere else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8796.46,8798.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/486","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8798.31,8798.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/487","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You know, rather than seeing that you’ve been thrust out from Eden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8798.4,8801.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/488","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8802.07,8804.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/489","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  It’s interesting because it is all about perception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8804.0,8806.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/490","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, it is.  But there wasn’t any attempt to really... I don’t know.  There may have been departments that had treated their junior faculty that way, but they were -- that was just a very individual sort of idiosyncratic thing, whereas in most departments I think it was... You know, it was claw your way up, you know.  And they always promised you, you know, that there was a -- you weren’t allowed to promise anybody anything, you know.  I mean, that’s what -- we had to be very careful in the provost office.  They said you never -- there’s no such thing as a tenure track position at Yale because there’s never a promise of tenure, that there will be even a possibility of tenure.  But unofficially, you’d tell them that it was a tenure track position, so it gave them the illusion that there was a possibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8806.56,8855.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/491","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you have women coming to you asking for help or mentorship?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8856.04,8859.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/492","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  Un-unh.  There was only... No, they didn’t really.  There was one young woman who was physics.  She and her husband had come from Princeton.  I appointed them fellow -- I mean, resident fellows at the college.  Karen -- I can’t remember what her name -- Rabb (sp?).  And I did spend some time with her.  She was a -- she was very -- and she was in an area where she was a very desirable recruit.  But she wanted to have a life, too.  You know, she was... And we did talk.  I mean, I couldn’t really help her in her field that much, but I could sort of help her with the politics of how things were going.  And then she left.  She and her husband both left.  They came from Princeton, and I think they went back to Princeton.  But no, people didn’t come to me.  Because people didn’t... I don’t know.  People didn’t come to anybody, really.  You know.  I don’t know who people talked to.  I mean, probably they had colleagues in their departments.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8859.24,8942.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/493","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right here, lot -- (inaudible) from the women that I’ve spoken to, it would appear that if you were going to get any kind of advice or mentoring, it tended to come from within the department.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8942.96,8955.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/494","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, I think...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8955.14,8956.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/495","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  People didn’t... But, you know, each department seemed very much a discrete unit.  But, I mean... But again, that’s only the impression I have from the people that I’ve spoken to and it may not necessarily be true.  You -- you talked about how in some of the departments that you had under your responsibility, were -- were in a particularly vulnerable position at this time because of the financial situation at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8956.19,8987.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/496","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8987.93,8989.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/497","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: One you didn’t mention was the school or nursing, because, I think, again, it was up for one of its periodic is it going to be closed or not.  And I just wondered... I’d really like to kind of get your -- your side of how that -- how that happened, how it resolved itself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=8989.28,9010.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/498","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, the -- they didn’t start off with a review.  They started off with a conclusion that they were -- that they could close the school and capture their endowment pretty easily.  And I wasn’t in on that part of it.  But when it became clear that that was the way that they were thinking of going, I argued very strongly with Frank that... First of all, it wasn’t right, and second of all, it was politically stupid not to have a review, that you couldn't just arbitrarily close a department.  Like they were also thinking of closing the sociology department, which they felt was very weak and expensive and a waste of their time.  And they didn’t think it -- they didn’t think it was that great a discipline, and I don’t know.  And the philosophy department was in chaos at the time, too, and there was a question about whether they were really going to try to rebuild it or kind of demote it.  So they agreed to a review and I tried to coach them on how to do the review.  Because the review was not presented to them as a do or die thing, it was presented as a, you know, periodic review of what’s happening.  They did a draft report and Frank looked at it and he was appalled.  He thought that they were -- their scholarship was really horrible.  And they did a self-study, and that’s what he viewed as really horrible.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9010.23,9120.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/499","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then they had a formal review and Rick was on the committee and it was really funny, because when Rick was on the committee... I talked to him at the beginning and he was all for closing the school.  He really thought that it was hopeless, he should close the -- close the school.  As we got later into the process of them trying to close the school, it became apparent that the politics were going to be very difficult and that it wasn’t going to be so easy to close the school, because even though they viewed it as a piece of trash, that the school was very -- it was very important.  It was the first independent university School of Nursing in the world, and it had been funded by the Rockefeller Foundation, and it had some historic importance.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9121.98,9186.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/500","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And beyond that, even though they viewed the alumni as, you know, peripheral to the university, they didn’t really think very carefully about what it would be like to, excuse my language, piss off a large group of influential women throughout the country.  I mean, they may not be great scholars, but there’s a lot of women out there and there were a lot of women that would have taken that as a really hostile move.  And, you know, nurses have been used to fighting off medical schools for years, and they’d known that universities have been very hostile to them.  So it would have been -- it wouldn’t have gone down without a pretty dirty (inaudible).  I mean, making the university -- they would have done everything they could to make the university look really, really bad, and it could have looked really vicious, the university against a group of women.  Who were self-supporting anyway.  They weren’t costing the university a penny.  I mean, it seems much too greedy to just kill them and to take their endowment just because you wanted to save money in the university budget.  They didn’t cause the university budget crisis.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9186.98,9265.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/501","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So they started to back-off, you know, like a little bit.  And then I talked to Rick again privately when the tides started to turn against, OK, how are we going to buck up this school, you know, and still keep it from costing us anything.  And Rick changed his mind --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9265.82,9289.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/502","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: (inaudible).  Sorry.  Can I -- I’m just trying to get the dates right.  This was -- this was... Rick left and had already come to the president’s or was he still with them?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9289.25,9296.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/503","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No, he was -- he was a faculty member and he was just on the committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9296.84,9300.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/504","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Ah, I understand.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9300.97,9301.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/505","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9301.88,9302.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/506","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But it was then -- is still under Benno --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9302.28,9304.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/507","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Frank Rudd -- Frank Rudd was the chairman of the committee.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9304.98,9307.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/508","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Right.  I am so sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9307.2,9308.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/509","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But Rick was on the committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9308.09,9308.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/510","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9308.24,9309.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/511","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So yes, that’s... So Rick was only a committee member.  But he talked to me -- because they were interviewing members of the school, and he changed his position totally and it was because of the politics.  And I just had contempt for him, I mean, because of that.  I really -- you know, he saw which way the wind was blowing and he wanted to be on the right side of it all.  And I just didn’t have any respect for him after that.  I just didn’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9309.02,9341.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/512","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Even when he became president.  I still don’t.  I mean, I think he’s OK, but I think he’s a political animal through and through.  I mean, absolutely.  And I guess he’s probably a good economist, but he’s just a consummate politician.  And he’s a very good administrator.  I must say that.  But I don’t view him as a scholar.  I really don’t view him as a scholar.  And I don’t view him -- I don’t view him as an honest person.  And it’s really hard to be working with people that you thought were dishonest and immoral.  I mean, and... (inaudible) there was never anything -- I mean, he treated me fine when he was in the president’s office, but... anyway, that was sort of the story of the School of Nursing.  And I can’t remember --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9341.24,9397.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/513","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What happened... I think in one of our other conversations, you suggested to me that you were offered some sort of deal --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9397.54,9409.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/514","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9409.52,9410.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/515","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- in terms of --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9410.44,9411.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/516","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9411.29,9411.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/517","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- the future. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9411.41,9412.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/518","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I’m just trying to remember exactly where that -- where that came in the sequence of things.  Oh, when it became clear... Oh, no, this was at the beginning when they wanted -- they had the secret plan to close the school.  They want -- the way they thought that it was going to happen, they thought that they had it brilliantly.  I mean, Frank came to me and talked to me privately about this.  This is -- obviously he and Benno had talked about it, and others, I’m sure.  The way they were going to accomplish that was they were going to appoint me the dean, the next dean of the School of Nursing and that I would collude with them, and that we would close the school, and that I would be able to handle, you know, the politics of it.  And I told them no.  Absolutely not.  That I absolutely would not do that under any circumstances and I thought they were making a terrible mistake.  And I think I told you when we talked before, though.  I was appalled that they were going to do that to my school without giving them a fair hearing or a chance to, you know, many any changes that the university thought that they needed, that they utterly scorned them.  That they thought that I would collude with them.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9412.55,9493.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/519","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And that what was really awful to me is that I was really tempted by it, because it would have put me in a very powerful position.  Not that I would be any more of an insider, but it’s an unusual situation when you see that the president and the provost are going to be indebted to you in that way, in that big a way.  That had to be a secret.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9493.29,9525.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/520","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And it must have altered your relationship, then, with the dean of the nursing school, having that knowledge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9525.66,9531.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/521","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She didn’t know that that -- she never knew that that had happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9531.74,9534.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/522","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That would have been Judy Krauss?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9534.83,9536.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/523","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  She never knew.  She never knew.  I’m the only -- only me and Frank and Benno and whoever else, you know, on the very inside.  It was probably -- I would imagine that Henry Browdy (sp?) was probably -- he was in on everything, you know, that happened.  And I’m sure that there were people on the corporation.  And the people in the -- like Chip knew.  In fact, I thought that Chip was probably... Because he said to me after -- after the decision was made not to close the school, that he said to me privately... He said, “Well, now that you’ve saved your school, I’m sure you’re going to go back to it.”  And I said, “No, not necessarily.”  So... I thought it gives (inaudible) a way of being rid of me, too.  You know, they get me out of the office.  But there was just -- there was just a horrible thing.  To see that kind of politicking behind the scenes.  And then because I knew, I was onto what they were doing.  I mean, I wasn’t dishonest.  I said I really felt, you know, the importance of the school, that they shouldn’t do it.  I mean, it was hard for -- then it became hard for them because I was on the inside of the plan and also had access to the inside of the school, so I was able to coach the school on what to do to... I mean, and it ended up... It was sort of -- they wanted to form a doctoral program and they were going to do this and that and the other thing.  But it was sort of irrelevant.  You know, it was really window-dressing, too, doing -- them making steps so that the university could justify not closing them in their own mind, even though they never...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9536.21,9647.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/524","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: They never... I mean, the school realized after a while that they were going to close, but they were -- they didn’t realize -- they never realized how serious the threat was.  And I got to go to corporation meetings where they discussed that kind of -- you know, the cuts, like cutting the School of Nursing.  And I went to a corporation meeting where they discovered... Where they talked about how possible it was to break the agreements around the endowment, to scoop up the endowment.  It was just horrifying to me.  Just awful.  (inaudible).  I mean, to see that kind of conniving.  And just because they were vulnerable and they had money.  You know, that’s... That was just... I thought it was... I thought it was evidence of very deep sexism in the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9647.98,9706.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/525","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9706.5,9706.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/526","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Why?  I mean, why wouldn’t you think of eliminating the school of public health or the School of Management?  I mean, management was losing money hand over fist, you know.  I mean, drama was always -- it was like sucking the university dry.  They never made a penny, you know.  No, they didn’t.  You know, but they wouldn’t have considered.  You know, they all loved going to New York when Lloyd Richards had an opening, you know, and basking in -- in all of it. And they loved going to plays.  But, you know, nursing was of no use to them at all.  So this was definitely sexism.  The only predominant -- oh, and the other thing that made them give it second thought is that it would have -- because we had to have tenure, grants of tenure, they knocked off the School of Nursing, they would have eliminated most of the tenured women on the faculty in one fell swoop, which would have made... It looked terrible.  I mean, because it would just look on paper that they had eliminated, you know, six tenured women, you know, in like... And they would never have brought the numbers up.  So, you know, it became like a political thing for them to do it.  So I mean, that’s the story about that.  It was really a -- it was really sort of a dirty thing.  I feel like it was a dirty thing.  And I think they tried to do that to the divinity school and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9706.9,9800.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/527","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think -- do you feel used?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9800.76,9803.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/528","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9803.27,9804.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/529","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Because you -- it was -- it was your alma mater?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9804.73,9808.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/530","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yup.  And, you know, it was just chance that I happened to be in the provost’s office at that time.  If I hadn’t been in the provost’s office, I am convinced they would have closed the school.  I know they would have.  And I don’t think that I’m, you know, trying to make my role too important.  I think that -- I know that I actually -- I saved the School of Nursing and no one knows it at the School of Nursing.  Because it was really important for me, for my colleagues, and for me not to let -- I mean, for them not to know and for me to help them.  I think I told you before that one of the things that I did is I really urged Judy Krauss, who was then the dean, to try to form a close personal relationship with Benno Schmidt.  I said, “You know, this has got to be, you know, a person to person thing, because it’s going to -- it will be harder for him to really do, you know, harsh things to the school if... And you have to, you know, be in his face all the time.”  She hated him.  She really hated him.  I said, “I don’t care how much you hate him.”  I said, “You just charm him.”  But that... And so she did.  I said, “Try your best seductive...”  He was having a lot of marital problems.  That was really awful of me to do that.  But, you know, I said, “OK.  Well, we’re going to have to play...”  Here’s the game again.  “We’re going to have to play the game here.”  And she did.  She didn’t realize -- she knew that the school was in danger, but she didn’t -- she never knew how close it was.  And, of course, you know, their plan to close it wouldn’t have worked if the school had known, because then they would have rallied, you know, support and, you know, fought back.  But the -- it depended on them not fighting back, for it to all be in place.  Because the ‘50s (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9809.12,9941.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/531","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think the time in ’56 when... It was -- they tried to -- it was... Yale tried to close it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9941.18,9946.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/532","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9946.94,9946.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/533","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But they mobilized women all over the place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9946.99,9951.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/534","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yup.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9951.28,9951.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/535","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  That was a very effective campaign.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9951.4,9954.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/536","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.  And, you know, the women -- I’m trying to think of the name of the president of the time.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9954.43,9960.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/537","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I’m trying to do -- that’s what I couldn’t... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9960.59,9961.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/538","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Anyway, he was -- he was very hostile --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9961.67,9967.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/539","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Who is it?  Can --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9967.99,9968.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/540","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9969.01,9969.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/541","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Not Bruce.  That was before Bruce.  The one before Brewster.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9969.53,9972.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/542","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9972.08,9972.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/543","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I can’t believe I’ve forgotten his name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9972.76,9974.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/544","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I can’t either.  I can see him in my mind but I can't think of his name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9974.03,9978.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/545","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Griswold.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9978.02,9978.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/546","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Griswold.  He was hostile also to the... I don’t remember what it was called.  There used to be a master’s program that was -- had standing sort of parallel to the doctoral program.  And, I mean, now master’s are just... In FAS, it’s just a stepping stone on the way to... And he really was against that and eliminated that.  He didn’t like any kind of professional stuff.  And there was a teacher’s training thing, too, that... I know I -- he eliminated that.  But, you know, the School of Nursing, I always felt that... He got his just rewards.  And again, this is really terrible, but he died of cancer within a couple of years of having tried to close the school, as a fairly young guy.  So they thought that God was punishing him for his attack.  And the irony of it was that he then needed the medical people in his last years, you know, and it was like... He thought that they were of no importance at all.  I think he probably felt differently towards the end.  But he was a very -- he was a very narrow-minded guy, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=9978.18,10050.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/547","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10050.65,10050.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/548","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10050.81,10050.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/549","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- maybe he was, you know, a product of his time.  His generation and his class, and a particular view of what a university was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10050.93,10051.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/550","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10051.97,10052.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/551","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think maybe an idea of what the university was has changed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10052.13,10069.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/552","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10069.41,10069.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/553","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: One of the things that strikes me very much, hearing you talk about the people and the issues at stake while you were in the provost’s office is that you do talk an awful lot about personalities and how to negotiate ways of getting those personalities on your side.  And I -- I’d... And you seem to me to have gone out of your way to have cultivated that person -- personal touch.  I wondered, is that because you are a woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10070.03,10108.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/554","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Probably.  I mean, some of it is because I’m a woman and, you know, women are more relational than men.  But I think it’s just my... I don’t know.  It’s just something that I intuitively developed as a management style.  I remember when I was a supervisor at Payne Whitney in New York, one of the big problems always was that, you know, I’d have to staff out (inaudible) especially even with the night.  I’d have staff that would be calling in sick, you know, (inaudible) necessary.  They were all -- a lot of young people, it was New York.  You know, they would just take -- take a day off.  But they would call in at the last minute and, you know, you’d be left short staffed, which would be -- could be very, very serious.  So I made it a point... You know, I was just a young person then.  I figured out that the way to get around that is... I made it a point of finding out all of the staff’s financial situation.  And I knew people who were deeply in debt and in financial trouble, and I could call them when we needed somebody at the last minute, because I knew they needed the money.  Because you’d offer them double pay, you know, to come in off shift and do that.  So in a way, that was like find -- you know, doing it on a personal basis instead of, you know, having a management chart or something.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10108.44,10188.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/555","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One of the people who was -- who was working there at the time -- this was -- shows how long ago it was.  Carly Simon (sp?) was one of our part-time people.  That was right before she came -- got really big.  And I remember she used to always be broke.  Always broke.  So I could call her up at a minute and she would be in there.  So I think it was just something I brought along with me and it just worked.  You know, it worked here.  And while they were doing... While they were doing their old boy network stuff, I had my own network of personal relationships with people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10189.39,10231.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/556","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.  So an alternative (inaudible) base?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10231.36,10235.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/557","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10235.63,10236.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/558","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That’s interesting, because on the -- on the face of it, it looks as if you could argue or see it -- you were given the small fry, these small little peripheral departments which were deemed to be kind of not the core activities of the university, thereby paying lip service to equal opportunity, but really you had the -- it was the letter of the law, but the real power was kept amongst the male elite.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10236.63,10265.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/559","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10265.88,10267.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/560","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  In -- in FAS and the School of Management --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10267.24,10269.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/561","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10269.11,10270.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/562","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10270.12,10270.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/563","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, absolutely.  And I think that the reason that I was able to sort of cultivate relationships with people -- and it wasn’t all that we were friend... I mean, but I always felt that there was a lot of mutual respect between us in that... I could call them.  I used to -- I could call them up and, you know, we could talk very frankly.  A lot of people I could talk off the record to.  I would coach them on recruitment, you know, and things that they could do.  And I would give them advance notice on sometimes -- things that were going to come down the pipe for them that they might want to know about.  But I think because they had not gotten the -- because they weren’t a big and important department.  They hadn’t gotten the attention before.  To get the kind of attention that I gave them and the sort of respect, meant a lot to them on a personal level.  You know, to really be listened to and to be valued.  You know, like I said, going over and... I mean, I’m sure other people do that.  But going over and looking at the Babylonian collection.  You know, I mean and going to, you know, events in their department.  And really being -- I was genuinely interested in a lot of the stuff and they were really happy because they felt that nobody understood them and that nobody wanted to listen to them.  And so just to have a chance to tell their story to power.  You know, even though I was the weakest link, I’m still power.  I mean, and they know that I could bring... I could at some point advocate for them if I was armed with... So what they would do is do their best to arm me with the power -- knowledge that I needed to be effective, and I could bring information that nobody else had.  That was important.  So yes.  I mean... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10270.33,10383.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/564","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think a lot of it was because I was a woman.  Probably.  I don’t think that the -- because it was men that I was dealing with.  Except that their... I mean, there are just a few women.  There was one woman in the music department that came late.  And -- gosh, I can’t think of her name.  In Judaic studies.  Paula Hyman, was recruited about halfway through and they made her chairman, of course, right away.  They made her chairman of the department.  And I helped her -- I helped her out a lot.  They depended on a lot of faculty coming from Israel, and it was very complicated immigration wise and politically to get people back and forth.  And, you know, she needed a lot of help with that and I was able to help her with it.  And a lot -- to do benefits things with them, which, you know, I understood through the office.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10385.04,10448.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/565","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But mostly it was men I was dealing with and I think actually... You know, I was younger and cuter and I think that men enjoyed my attention.  And I always made it a point, unlike the men in the office... I always made it a point is I went to their place, which they really liked, I mean, because it showed respect.  Instead of making them come over and grovel in your office, you know, they were in charge there.  They could show me their operation.  And it was fun for me to go around and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10449.01,10480.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/566","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So you were, in a way, quite happy to -- and willing to subvert the normal rules of management power?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10480.58,10487.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/567","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.  Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10487.28,10488.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/568","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Because that is a classic one.  It -- you -- people do -- whose territory are you on?  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10488.03,10494.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/569","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10494.05,10494.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/570","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Puts you in the -- puts you in the best position, doesn’t it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10494.21,10497.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/571","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.  I had thought, when I went to the provost office -- when I became -- when I became a master, I thought that maybe I’d like to be a university president.  And after I was in... And, in fact, I even went to -- I got sent... The university sent me to a workshop.  Can't remember what it was called, down in Pennsylvania.  It was some kind of -- some (inaudible) group train women in administration to get ahead, get ahead in the world.  I went down there and after I was in it... And then I saw what it was really like.  And I saw how stressful her life was and that -- I said, “I don't want this.”  It really wasn’t something that I want at all.  “I definitely don’t want this.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10497.45,10544.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/572","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I started to pity people who... Because I saw all it was is politics and fundraising.  Politics and fundraising.  I can see how, you know, administrators are not scholars, because they spend all their time dealing with money, with regulations.  I mean, it’s really... I mean, they don’t -- they don’t really have time to do anything else.  And that’s a shame for a university.  I mean, I think -- I think it’s changed the university a lot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10545.27,10585.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/573","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think it’s become more corporate?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10586.46,10588.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/574","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Much more.  I can’t tell you how the difference between I first came to Yale and... I mean, there are some things that are a lot better.  They’re a lot freer and Yale is more innovative and there’s more knowledge and more resources, but... The old collegial thing is gone, I think.  Except, you know, in departments and even... I think in the big departments it must be eroded.  You know, when there were smaller departments and people... People not only worked together, but... You know, like at their best, something like the fellowships.  I mean, people saw each other socially and it was more like a family kind of an atmosphere.  And they were very devoted to the students, I felt.  That the teaching part of it was important to them.  And I think teaching is secondary, absolutely secondary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10588.15,10648.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/575","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, and of course, there’s been a -- has been historically changing in university culture in that the way to get on is through publication, which doesn’t necessarily make it easier for you to do your teaching well and to research and publish.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10649.12,10665.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/576","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10665.63,10665.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/577","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But what gets you promoted, what gets you on is the publications, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10665.72,10669.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/578","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Publications and... Publications alone are not enough, because you have to go around and politick at your disciplinary meetings.  You have to go -- you have to go around and connect with everybody, because those are the people that -- those are the people that are going to write the letters for you.  And if they know you, and they know your work, and they like you, they’re going to be able to write effectively.  I mean, I’ve seen people who don't do that, and you see the kinds of letters that come in for them, and they’ll say, “Well, you know, I read over, you know, a couple of their things, and it’s really brilliant work, but I don’t really know this person,” and blah, blah, blah.  So they’re sort of implying that may be good work, but it’s had no influence at all on the field, which may or may not be true.  That’s -- you know, the influence in the letters, at least, is judged by how well do I know them.  You know, how much has their work sort of contributed to my stuff?  And so you have to -- so you have to hop around to professional stuff, as well as writing.  So what do you have time to do?  I mean, you can’t -- you have to let your teaching go because you can’t sacrifice the research or the other part of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10669.6,10742.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/579","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: That makes me think of... You’ve talked a little bit about the -- at least some of the men in your department, especially talking about Frank Turner, who was the provost.  I’m just wondering about what women may have been around the central administration that you’d have had dealings with at that time.  Were there many others, and if so, who were they?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10745.35,10774.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/580","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: There was one other woman in the provost’s office and she was hired after I came.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10774.08,10780.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/581","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Who was she?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10780.44,10781.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/582","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She did the social sciences and it was Arlene McCourt (sp?).  And the reason that Arlene McCourt got hired was... I’m sort of ashamed to say this.  But anyway, we were having an -- they had an open position.  They wanted to have another -- and they wanted someone to deal with the social sciences, mainly because they were going to try to demolish a good portion of the social sciences and really needed them to have somebody right there.  So they had all these people and, you know, we were screening, you know, the résumés.  And they came up with a short list.  And I went back over it and screened it again.  And I looked at Frank and I said to him, “There’s an Asian American woman here.  I think you’d better interview her.”  He said, “No.”  And this was Arlene McCourt.  He said, “No.  Arlene McCourt.”  I said, “Look at her résumé.”  I said, “She’s an Asian American.  I’m sure she is.”  And he did have her -- he put her on the short list and he brought her in.  He interviewed her and she was quite competent.  She came from New York.  She was -- I think she was at NY -- I think she was at City College.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10781.41,10862.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/583","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was a fascinating woman.  Her husband was an (inaudible) somewhere in New York.  She had been interned.  She was a Japanese American.  She had been interned as a child on one of the camps during the war and she was very bright and Frank liked her.  And they hired her because they didn’t have any -- they didn’t have any minorities at all in the office.  And it was -- she was a much safer minority to have than to have some radical black person.  She was a woman and she was Asian.  So she was in the office when I was there.  But they gave her a really hard time, too.  They gave her a really hard time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10862.73,10907.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/584","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: In what way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10907.39,10908.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/585","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Same thing.  That they excluded her.  Also, the department that she took over was Chip’s and Chip didn’t help her at all and he let her flounder a little bit.  I helped her a little bit, you know, by doing stuff, but there’s a limited amount of things that you can do.  And I was right.  We were... I was very friendly with her.  Personally.  And afterwards for a while and now just sort of lost touch with her because our lives went in different directions.  But -- so there were just the two of us.  And the only other women were staff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10908.21,10942.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/586","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What were the relationships like between the senior male staff, senior male administrators and the clerical administrative staff, who must have been mostly female.  I just wondered what the general relations were like.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10942.88,10961.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/587","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, in the provost’s office, they were pretty much very respectful and very proper, and that’s because Josie Brody (sp?) was in charge of the office.  Josie told the people -- so, I mean, sort of set the tone as to how people were to be treated.  And Josie was a very -- Josie’s a very -- she’s very fair and she’s sort of a fearless person.  So everyone was treated with... I think a -- but there was obviously... I mean, there was a huge social distance between staff.  I mean, you never... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=10961.56,11002.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/588","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Like at the School of Nursing.  We -- the School of Nursing, when I’d been over there, we knew that we -- your lives depended on your administrative assistant and you treated them as a colleague, really, and not in the provost’s office.  They were definitely -- they were definitely staff.  And when Judith Rodin was there, she never even bothered to learn the names of any of the people.  She would just, you know, kind of address them as hey you.  I mean, she really -- she did away with having Christmas presents for the staff.  She couldn’t be bothered.  I mean, she just couldn’t be bothered.  She treated everybody with sort of... Well, she was very focused.  And anything that wasn’t important to her goals, she just eliminated from her life.  And the little niceties of, you know, interrelationships in the office was not something that was on her list, so...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11002.9,11057.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/589","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: How did you get on with her?  Because she would have been your boss, then, for the last part of your time in the office.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11057.25,11063.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/590","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I got along all right with her.  I don’t think she -- I know she -- she didn’t have very much respect for me.  But I protected her from... She was a -- she was sort of a controversial person and she had... She had some difficulties with the grad -- the graduate students were... You know, they were in the throes of their hostile attempts to organize and to strike and, you know, the university was retaliating against them.  That you are not employees, you’re students, and so you can’t strike, and blah, blah, blah.  And then the university would withhold their -- withhold their pay.  And, you know, it was just -- it was horrible.  And so they would always be like demonstrating and I’d have to work with the -- with the dean of the graduate school.  Jerry Pollett (sp?) was the dean then, I think.  And so she relied on me to sort of protect her from that, because they were hostile -- the students were especially hostile to her, because even though she was the provost now and not the dean of the graduate school, she had been the dean of the graduate school and they felt that she had done nothing for them and that she had kind of sold them out to go -- enter the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11063.9,11143.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/591","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And the other person that she -- had a great deal of difficulty was Mimi Neill, who was the director of the Yale Art Gallery.  And Mimi was a -- she was... She was a similar personality to Judy Rodin, except that she was not as crude as Judy was.  But she had a terrible temper and she... I mean, she had a very prickly ego and she... The only way I can describe her is that she had sort of the behavior and attitude of a person who -- and she was a good scholar and she was a good, I mean, museum director.  But she mingled with only the richest and most cultivated people.  I mean, you know, she was on -- in the peer group of the collectors, you know.  I mean -- I think they -- a lot of collectors, I realized, they form these personal relationships with museum directors who stroke their egos.  I mean, they sort of mutually... And anyway, she saw herself as a very important person.  She was pretty close to Theresa Heinz, you know, John Kerry -- who was on the board.  I mean, that was the kind of people that we were deal -- I mean, I’d go to the board meetings, you know, and we’d make nice to all of these people who were... I mean, incredibly arrogant people.  I mean... Well, not necessarily arrogant, but the only way I can describe it is people who have all their lives been so rich that they’ve hardly had to pick up their napkin themselves.  Just have a different way of dealing with people.  I mean, there’s some that are very humble and they’re very delightful people.  And other people are just -- they’re like missing a gene, you know, that they can relate to you just on a human level.  And they also have a self protective, because everybody’s trying to get money from them.  So, you know, there’s a certain reserve.  So that they’re always on -- a little bit on guard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11144.0,11287.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/592","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Anyway, Mimi was really... She hated Judy.  And Judy Rodin was after the museum.  The university was after the museum for a lot of things and they just did not see eye to eye and Mimi would just refuse to accept some of the policies and some of the budget cuts that they made, and you know, she would hold out and threaten that she was going to go to Theresa Heinz, for example, and snitch that the university was being bad about this or that, which really would have harmed, you know, donor... So she had, you know, a card that she could play, too.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11288.05,11326.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/593","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I -- once, I was the one that was dealing with Mimi, who would be just in a rage, you know, about stuff.  And so finally -- and they needed to meet together and they couldn’t tolerate meeting together, so I had to plan the meeting and I had to sit in the office with them, sort of a buffer.  And they screamed at each other.  It was just horrible.  I mean, it was like a catfight.  It was really awful.  So she didn’t really care for me that much, but she needed me.  Let me put it this way.  Because there were some people she couldn’t -- she needed me for.  But she didn’t stay long.  You know, she was just... We were just a stepping stone to being president of Yale, and when she didn’t get the president of Yale, she was the president of Penn.  So she was... She was like totally indifferent.  We were like non -- non-people in her (inaudible) view.  She was a very handsome woman.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11326.57,11387.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/594","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She’s just very... Very unpleasant to work with.  And I don’t think she was -- and I think she was very -- I think she was really -- I think she was even more unpleasant to other women, because she was a woman... She’s one of those stupid women -- well, she’s not stupid.  She’s one of those women who viewed that... She had pulled herself up by her own bootstraps because of her fantastic talent, intelligence, and ability, and how could the rest of us stupid peons, you know, still allow ourselves to be oppressed?  So she became like a super oppressor, you know what I mean?  She made it a point, I think, of not ever -- the secretaries were so hurt.  Of never addressing them by their names.  And then we realized that she didn’t know their names, which was even more horrible.  So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11387.32,11443.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/595","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So there wasn’t a sisterhood across disciplines and structures?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11443.11,11448.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/596","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  Allison Richards was there, but Allison was not...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11448.77,11451.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/597","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What position did she have at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11451.94,11455.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/598","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She was -- she became provost while I was -- she was the last provost that I had.  Allison, you know, had all the messes of everybody else, you know, left over to deal with.  There was plenty of stress on her.  Allison really acted like a -- I mean, she was... Allison was as close to being in the old boy network as you could possibly be.  And she was... I don’t know.  I mean, I don’t know if it was sort of a cultural thing with her.  She’s British.  I mean, she was -- had a more formal reserved, you know, not as casual.  And so her personality was not threatening, I think, to a lot of the men and they liked her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11455.71,11508.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/599","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So she wasn’t abrasive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11508.31,11509.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/600","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No, she wasn’t at all abrasive.  Not abrasive at all.  In fact, she was very soft-spoken, quiet.  She was almost like a little timid person, but she definitely had a mind of her own.  And so she was very, very different.  She was a good person to work for.  But then she left Yale, too.  I mean, not too long after I did.  She went to Cambridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11509.39,11535.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/601","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, she’s in Cambridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11535.78,11536.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/602","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11536.85,11536.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/603","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I didn’t know how long ago she started in Cambridge.  She’s been there a while now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11536.97,11541.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/604","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She’s been there quite a while, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11541.79,11542.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/605","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  Do you think there were both advantages and disadvantages to being a woman in the provost’s office?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11542.45,11556.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/606","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I don’t think there were too many advantages.  I think there were mostly disadvantages.  I think if I had the same background and behavior, personality, and I was a guy, I would have done very, very, very, very well in the university.  And I think that it was being a woman.  It was not only being a woman, but I was in a -- in people’s view, a professional field and not an academic field.  And it wasn’t until people got to know me and... I think it was also because I got to understand their disciplines a little bit and they started to... I mean, sort of treat me as if I was a very smart person.  I mean, before they... It’s sort of like... You know, like they’re kind of dealing with a kindly imbecile.  You know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11562.22,11625.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/607","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you feel that as a woman you were under more pressure to prove yourself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11625.7,11631.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/608","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, absolutely.  Absolutely.  No doubt about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11631.02,11634.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/609","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And did you think that there... You -- I mean, you had obviously this close working relationship with Frank Turner, which must have been to your advantage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11635.2,11643.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/610","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11643.52,11644.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/611","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But do you think that there were other power circles within the provost’s office --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11644.16,11654.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/612","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11654.75,11656.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/613","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- that maybe had access to power in a different way that you were excluded from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11656.06,11662.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/614","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11662.39,11662.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/615","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I just wondered if there was, if you have any examples that you could... Any examples you could give me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11663.96,11668.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/616","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, the only example I can think of... Well, I mean... Chip always viewed himself as sort of inner-inner circle.  He had one foot in the provost’s office and he also had another foot in the president’s office.  And I think in the president’s office that it’s not only that he was -- he made himself helpful to the president, but I think that he was in Henry Browdy’s confidence.  And -- so Chip was a very pivotal person and the only person that he really -- he had Lloyd Suttle (sp?), who was not a very bright person.  He was sort of his protégé.  But he needed a little power base in the office and one time toward the end, before Benno had to stop down as president... Or -- I can’t remember how that -- actually played itself out.  But really the faculty forced him out.  And Frank, too.  Frank ended up (inaudible).  And it was over this fool thing to cut 10% of the FAS faculty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11668.02,11756.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/617","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: If there was ever a stupid thing they ever tried, that was the worst.  The worst.  The worst, the worst.  So they... I became aware... We were having -- they were having faculty meetings that were very hostile, where the faculty was really... You know, the administration would be present but the faculty would really speak out, you know.  It was just really unpleasant.  I mean -- and they were resisting.  It was just very, very, very bad.  And Frank was really a very well related person.  Frank Turner.  He’s a very -- I think he’s a very kind person and he had a lot of close relationships in the faculty.  And at first, you know, he had kind of -- they treated him with respect, though, you know, resistance, and then when it became really a fight to the death, I mean, that was like over with and I was in on one.  I can’t remember what kind of a meeting it was.  Oh, I know what it was.  It was a faculty -- it was a staff meeting and there was going to be some kind of a faculty meeting.  And we were in this staff meeting and Chip -- oh, the provost office staff.  Except for Frank.  Frank wasn’t there.  And Chip kind of informed us that he had talked to the president and to -- he had talked to Benno and he had talked to some key faculty members that he was close to and that they were going to throw Frank to the wolves.  They were going to make him the scapegoat.  Chip was doing that to try to save Benno.  My guess is that probably ANN AMELING: Henry Browdy was behind that maneuver.  And he spoke in such a disrespectful way about Frank in the meeting.  I didn’t say anything at the time of the meeting, but I called Frank up and I said I had to have breakfast with him the next day.  And we did.  We went over to the law school and sort of sat incognito over on the side.  And he had breakfast and I said -- I told him that I thought that he should speak up and fight for what he thought was right in the fac -- I mean, and sort of forget about the temp -- and be very open with the faculty.  And he said, you know -- you know, he asked me a little bit about that and he said he would -- he would think that over.  And I said, “I have to tell you that you can’t trust Chip.  Chip is very disloyal to you, and that he is working behind your back.”  And Frank didn’t believe me.  He just wouldn’t believe me, because he relied on -- I think he relied on Chip so much.  Chip made himself indispensable and, you know, I -- I said, “I can’t tell you, you know, how I know,” because I just didn’t want to, you know, quote him directly.  But I said, “You got to believe me, that you can’t trust him at all, that he is -- he is doing great harm to you and to the provost’s office.”  And Frank never took my advice.  And I had no -- no -- absolutely no respect for Chip after that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11756.16,11985.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/618","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So there was an -- it was an inner circle and then there was an even smaller circle inside.  So I thought that that was really... I thought that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11985.75,11997.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/619","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Were there other assistant provosts who were men?  Were they out of the loop, as well?  Were they outside this inner circle?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=11997.92,12008.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/620","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12008.39,12009.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/621","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So it wasn’t really a gender thing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12009.05,12010.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/622","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12010.73,12011.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/623","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: At least not wholly a gender thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12011.57,12013.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/624","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was an FAS thing.  Gary Haller (sp?) was in the office, but Gary didn’t -- at the provost office at the time.  But Gary didn’t... Gary didn’t play politics.  It was really interesting.  I don’t know if you know him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12013.73,12029.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/625","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No, I don’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12029.04,12029.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/626","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He’s a... He’s a scientist.  He’s also sort of a flamboyant personality.  He was a master at one of the colleges.  He was very big in his field and he... Oh, my God.  I can’t remember -- even remember what people’s fields were anymore.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12029.43,12050.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/627","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But he had a very solid base of support in the... And he was instrumental in, you know, them forming the engineering program as it is now.  And so they kind of let him play his little game, and he just did not want to be on the inside.  Scientists within FAS are in a little bit different position than the humanities faculty.  It’s not that they are not full members, but there are different concerns, I think, for the scientists because of the economic necessities of maintaining their labs.  That they’re more dependent on the university in a funny way financially than FAS.  I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12050.23,12099.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/628","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, I suppose in a way, humanities is very cheap to run.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12099.72,12101.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/629","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It is very cheap to run.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12101.78,12103.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/630","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12103.2,12103.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/631","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You just need a few books, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12103.32,12105.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/632","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Few books and a few people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12105.53,12106.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/633","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You don’t need those big labs, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12106.98,12109.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/634","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12109.44,12110.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/635","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean... So no, they weren’t in the inner circle.  Chip was... That inner circle... I don’t even know who else was in it.  I’m just guessing that Henry was in it.  I’m guessing that Henry was in it, I’m guessing that Josie was in it, I’m guessing -- but I don’t think Henry and Josie were at the same time.  I think they just -- they communicated with each other.  Josie ran the provost’s office, basically.  Henry ran the president’s office, and they kept a very tight ship and they didn’t talk to anybody that didn’t need to be talked to.  So I’m sure that the inner circle was very, very tiny.  My guess is that there’s probably a couple of key people on the corporation or past... I mean, just sort of wealthy, influential old boys on the outside world somewhere, and that -- and Hen -- and I don’t know how it runs now that Henry isn’t there.  I don’t -- I can’t imagine that there was -- anybody could have really replaced him, with his institutional memory and the kind of enormous -- Linda’s not a faculty member.  She’s in the inner circle, but... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12110.36,12178.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/636","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Is it -- just (inaudible) here.  I’m just trying to think of, you know, if -- if -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12178.03,12182.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/637","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, Linda’s def -- Linda’s definitely on -- in the inner circle, but... Linda and... University general counsel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12182.64,12196.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/638","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, Dor -- is it Dorothy Robinson?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12196.71,12199.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/639","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, Dorothy Robinson.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12199.65,12200.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/640","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12200.5,12200.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/641","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Linda and Dorothy.  But Linda and Dorothy have their little -- they had their own little thing, too.  And Dorothy has a -- Dorothy and Linda both have... I’ll tell you why they have a great deal of power and are probably in the inner circle.  It is because there are so many legal things that are so essential that nobody can survive without them.  So I’m sure that they’re in on everything.  But as I said, neither of them are faculty members.  So they’re not in on the faculty power base, they are more in on the world relations protecting the university, the legal aspects of it.  But they’re not on -- I’ve never heard any of them being quoted or being talked about as being involved in any of the important policy kind of decisions, you know, or academic decisions.  Though I’m sure -- things like whether you should have two more residential colleges or not, that they would be involved in.  But, I mean, whether you should have a completing different kind of undergraduate curriculum, or different relationship between the professional schools and the undergraduate college, or... I mean, they would never be involved in anything like that.  I’m sure they wouldn’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12200.66,12298.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/642","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Why did you... Why did you leave the provost’s office?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12300.52,12307.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/643","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because they asked me to go.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12307.14,12310.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/644","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: On what grounds?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12310.32,12311.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/645","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: They don’t have to have any grounds.  They don’t really have any grounds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12312.01,12316.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/646","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So you -- you were never given any reason?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12316.93,12318.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/647","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  Well -- oh, but my appointment was over.  You have a term -- a point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12318.83,12321.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/648","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, it was a term appointment, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12321.39,12324.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/649","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And they don’t have to give you any reason.  I mean, the expectation is that the faculty are not there forever.  Only the professional administrators are there forever.  That you only stay for a while, and then you do go back.  So, you know, in a way it was probably time for me to go back, but...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12324.28,12343.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/650","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Would you like to have stayed on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12343.37,12346.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/651","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I probably would have sta-- I probably would have stayed on.  I would have stayed on because I liked the money.  I liked being in the power pos -- I didn’t like the stress, at all, and I didn’t like the people I had to deal with that much in the office.  But I would have liked to have stayed on and taken my early retirement.  I would have taken an early retirement and not gone back to teaching.  That’s what I would have liked.  So basically, I didn’t want to go back to -- I didn’t really want to go back to the School of Nursing.  But it wasn’t that I had loved the provost’s office that much.  After a while, it was too... But Allison was there when I was there, and she was better... I mean, she was better to deal with because she -- she was just... She was very fair.  She took her time thinking about things.  She sort of had a sense of... But everybody left.  You know, there wasn’t anybody, except for the professional staff, that didn’t go.  All the faculty rotated back to, you know, their departments.  So, you know, you don’t -- people don’t stay that long.  You can’t stay that long or you’re really so out of touch with your field after a while.  Even -- because most of them are not -- are not full-time in the office, but even so, you know, your work is drastically cut -- cut back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12346.18,12441.45"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/652","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12441.47,12441.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/653","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But I would -- I would have stayed if they had...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12441.59,12444.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/654","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think you had a price to pay for getting to play with the big boys for a while?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12445.32,12449.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/655","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  I think so.  I mean, personally I know that I have.  I mean, I look back and my life would have been a lot different.  I would have been -- I probably would have been a big scholar in my field, because I really didn’t keep up with, you know, my research because I didn’t have any... I couldn’t, because in order to continue to get grants... I mean, the level of competition was so great that I just didn’t have the time to put into it.  And I negotiated two years leave... Well, it was a year and a half, but spread out over -- the second year was spread out over a whole year, so I took half pay for a full year.  Because it was not allowed for you to take two years of leave.  But the School of Nursing made it look on paper like I was on a special teaching assignment or something.  You know, university can arrange anything.  I hear them say -- I used to go to faculty meetings at the School of Nursing, and they’d say, “Well, it’s against policy to do that,” and I would go, “Oh, my god.”  You know, I’d think to myself, “Anything can be fixed, you know.”  The fix is in, it’s done, and nobody knows a thing about it.  But if it’s convenient to deny somebody something, or to keep them in control, then you go to the policy.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12449.56,12530.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/656","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And as soon as I... I think it was within six months.  It was less than six months.  I had breast cancer, so... You know, I can’t help but think that it was the stressful life style that I was leading, contributed enough that it was the only factor, but... I think that that was like a wake-up call to me that I really needed to transform my life and that... And that’s when I totally gave up any administrative ambitions.  You know, it all... I mean, first of all, it just became important to me to live, and then second of all, you know, you sort of sort through your priorities.  And that’s when it became not important -- so important for me to sort of maintain all those old relation -- you know, the relationships that I... I only kept the relationships -- I only invested in the relationships that I had cultivated as -- being in the provost’s office that were personally important to me.  Because I knew what... You know, you kind of know everybody.  And some people I kind of keep that... You know, you have to work to keep that network once you’re no longer in a power position, because it’s not that people really like personally.  But if you keep the relationship, they’ll sort of allow it to go.  ANN AMELING: But I have been... I have seen some people through that -- not very active, but a little bit active in the Koerner Center.  There’s some people that I like a lot, that I’ve known from the past.  And a lot of the people I know are retired, but now... It’s frightening to me.  A lot of them are dying, you know.  I mean -- because a lot of them that I knew were a lot older, you know, when they were in the office.  So there are fewer and fewer people that -- that I know.  And I really didn’t keep up with the fellowship at the college.  I just didn’t want to -- I wanted to let the new masters just have their thing, you know, and not be involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12530.49,12667.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/657","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Though Mary Miller, who is the current master, has been very kind to me and she invited me -- and I did go in the beginning and help her out some with the fellowship and things in the office.  She just e-mailed me and asked my opinion about some funds.  They are endowed funds in the college, about how she should use them.  And I e-mailed her back and told her what I thought the intent of the funds was, which was entirely opposite of what she had asked me if she could use -- I thought she could use them.  And she never got back to me again.  Since I remember when this fund was established, this was the purpose of it, and blah, blah, blah.  And that you should have... So I’m sure I’ll never hear another thing from her about -- about that.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12667.44,12718.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/658","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I think it was a big -- I think it was at a big cost in my personal life.  It was just one of those 24 hour... At one point I broke my ankle in the provost’s office and I couldn’t drive.  So I -- for a while.  So I was at home for a while, and it’s like... You know, they give you your fax machine and your own phone and everything, and you know, you sit in your bed, you know, and you’re like working your brains out.  It’s like... So that was the kind of life that it was.  It was... And some of it was fun but... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12718.77,12755.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/659","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What do you think you got out of it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12755.77,12759.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/660","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think I have a lot of personal satisfaction in that I think that I was able to do some things that were very important.  I think I saved the School of Nursing.  I think that I went a lot way to saving the divinity school, although I certainly didn’t do that all on my own.  I think that the departments that I -- some of my departments that I had... Music school was run like a circus.  I’m telling you, it was like really... You know, they’re performers, they’re wonderful, fantastic, talented people, but they could not -- they couldn’t organize somebody’s desk.  I’m telling you that they are really... They paid no attention to policy.  They would call me up and say that they were -- they had made an offer to this senior faculty member.  And I’m going, “Oh, my god.  You can’t do that without a search.”  “Oh, a search?  Well, how can we fix that?” You know, it was like... I mean, they were like... And because just performance and talent that were important.  I mean, administration meant nothing to them at all.  And I was able to... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12759.02,12834.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/661","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Rick wanted to get this guy who was in the... I can’t remember what his name is now.  He was in the Tokyo String Quartet, who Rick knew and he was this fantastic performer and he was like brilliant, and Rick really loved him, and he wanted to make him chairman of the department.  And I thought to myself, “Oh, my god, another big ego performer.”  This will be like a disaster.  And so we did a search -- we had a search committee and I was the chair of the search committee, and I was able to kind of load it so that we recruited the present dean, who was... He was at Stanford at the time.  Or UCLA.  Yeah, he was at UCLA.  Who is a wonderful administrator and a... I mean, he’s not a world class musician like a lot of the other... He’s enough of a musician so that he’s respected by the faculty and he’s turned it into a wonderful happy place that kind of abides by policy.  So I think I made a big contribution to improving their quality of life.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12834.45,12905.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/662","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I think that a lot of the policies I did, like the domestic partners, and the retirement policy, and the... You know, and the maternity leave policy, I think that I really influenced things in the right direction.  And the gay and lesbian faculty.  I think I really had... It’s really unfortunate, but they kind of -- at least Chip particularly... He kind of viewed them as a joke, and I -- I really believed that they were serious scholars and I liked most of them as human beings, and so I really worked a lot on that.  And particularly, we did a lot of recruitment and there were a lot of injustices in the university.  Like there was a faculty member named Peter Hawkins, who’s just come back, who had been... He had been an associate professor for about 15 years.  You know, it’s against the rules.  If you aren’t elected -- if you aren’t promoted to a full professor within ten years, it becomes automatic and nobody had... And he was a gay man.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12906.97,12984.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/663","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He was very talented.  Dante is his -- is his field.  And he called me up and asked me something and I noticed that... He said about -- he wanted a salary adjustment because he was trying -- they were trying to recruit him from Harvard.  And I noticed that he had never been reviewed.  And I said, “Yeah, I can get you the salary adjustment, but you should be a full professor.”  And I said, “You don’t even have to be reviewed now because it’s become automatic.”  And he was like astonished.  And I got him made a full professor.  But then he left the university in a snit because they had treated him so unjustly.  He went to Harvard and now he’s come back.  But -- and he was -- he’s just a fantastic scholar.  I mean, he’s -- he sort of goes beyond... He’s at the divinity school, but his work kind of goes beyond, you know, just any one department.  He’s just...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=12984.08,13045.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/664","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you ever find any salary discrepancies amongst women?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13045.44,13047.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/665","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, yeah.  Not so much in the FAS faculty, because the FAS faculty... But in the professional schools.  That was one of the thing that (inaudible) cleaned up.  There was one woman in the music school, an Oriental woman who had been there for years and years and years.  I think she was a professor.  Yeah, she was a professor.  And she -- I was looking at their salary scale and her salary was like $20,000 less than men with (inaudible) for anything.  She wasn’t aggressive.  She was a very pas -- I mean, she probably considered -- was grateful that she was there in the university.  And so I was... You know, and there were -- she was just one instance of a lot of women throughout the professional schools and I’d tell them, “You have to -- you have to ad...”  They go, “No, that’s going to bring up our scale.  People are going to object.”  I said, “I don’t care if people object or not.  You’re going to do it.  I mean, that’s -- you know, that’s gender discrimination.”  So there was a lot of gender inequalities and sometimes whole schools, like the nurse of nursing, the whole school was below.  But because they were -- they were self-supporting, they couldn’t really bring theirs up that much.  If they had been part of the university central funds, they would have had to have jacked it up.  Yes, so there was lots of that.  And, I mean, you know -- you know, in the history department, (inaudible), I mean, equality for Cynthia and for Betsy Bartlett.  I mean, that they were never made... I mean, that Cynthia was never made regular faculty all those years.  And it also meant that her pay was like in the basement, you know.  They got her for almost next to nothing.  And Betsy Bartlett.  I know that her pay -- she fought really hard for her pay.  And (inaudible) would get these (inaudible) personality.  They have a system at Yale where there’s what’s called a confidential salary and it’s top, top secret.  And people who get preferential treatment go in to it, and the administration goes into that, too, so that nobody except for... I don’t know, there’s probably one person in the treasurer’s office or something that sort of sees that, and the provost or the president see that.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13047.8,13212.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/666","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But we have these people -- guys in the department and they’d come in and they’d want like these huge salaries.  They would want this huge -- because they just thought they were that important.  And sometimes they would get it, and sometimes they wouldn’t, depending on how important they were to the university.  But some -- not everybody.  Some scholars are wonderful, but some scholars really -- because they knew that they were important to the university, would just come in and hold them up, is what they would do, threaten to leave.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13212.54,13252.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/667","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So -- and they’d go into the confidential salary and nobody would know, because if anybody knew, they’d be really jealous.  Because everybody watched everybody’s salary.  Whenever we had the salary adjustments every year, when people’s salaries came out, somehow, though they weren’t published or anything, people would make it their business to find out what their other colleagues raises were, and if they thought they had been slighted they would be in their complaining.  Complaining wasn’t the word for it.  They’d be, you know, so bad.  They were really bad.  And in a way, that’s what happens when you run a corporate enterprise, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13252.27,13297.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/668","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  Are you up for another half hour or so?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13297.03,13300.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/669","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13300.51,13300.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/670","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Or do you want to have a break now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13300.78,13302.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/671","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Would you like to take a little break?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13302.56,13303.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/672","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Shall we take a little break?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13303.78,13304.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/673","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah, let’s take a little break.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13304.3,13304.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/674","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  OK.  We just had a short break.  One of the things, Ann, that you were talking about when you were in the provost’s office that was -- your work in relation to issues like maternity leave and domestic partners and all of that, and it struck me, I should have asked you at that time what your own arrangements were, because you had a son --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13304.59,13342.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/675","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13342.61,13343.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/676","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- all the time that you were working.  And just as a kind of personal addendum, I’d like to hear a little bit about how you managed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13343.39,13352.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/677","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: My son was born in 1971, so the School of Nursing was pretty... I don’t remember what the university policy was.  Oh, I know.  One of the things that I think I got changed in the university policy was that they had a short number of weeks that people used to get off after childbirth and that was... I just -- I told them.  I said that, “Actually, a mother needed six weeks to recover completely,” since they were doing the disability model, and that’s what we had followed at the School of Nursing.  You know, voluntarily at the School of Nursing and at the medical school.  And so -- that they were just way off base.  So they extended it to six weeks.  I mean, they never even... I don’t know that that’s necessarily true, but I think that, you know, six weeks is the minimum that you should probably take off.  But they just really were oblivious to, you know, what people could do.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13353.8,13423.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/678","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I found childcare from -- through the university.  A woman who was working part-time at the school, had a mother who had come from down south and who had always done childcare, and so she came into my house.  And she wanted to be paid under the table because she was on welfare.  So I was one of those... If I was being vetted, right, I mean, for a political office, I’d be caught on having an illegal -- not an illegal alien, but an illegal person.  And I felt badly, actually, that I didn’t ever pay any social security for her, but she just refused.  You know, I had to pay her privately.  She was with me until my son was probably about in third grade and she was really a family member.  And he was so attached to her.  You know, he used to cry when she went home in the evening, which really killed me.  And because I didn’t have my own mother around, she knew things like -- that I didn’t know at all.  She -- she... When he was an infant, for example, she told me that I had to get this certain kind of soap to -- so she could give him -- she could shampoo his hair because she said he was developing cradle cap, which is like a scalp condition, right.  I had never even heard of it, you know.  And so she did it.  And then every time we had -- I had a friend come over who had, you know, also had a baby.  She would like inspect the babies.  She cured cradle cap in a number of Yale faculty children.  But, you know, she just had this sort of know how.  She was a wonderful... Flora Hatley (sp?), her name was, from South Carolina.  She was just -- she was a wonderful person.  She saved -- saved my life.  Oh, and she -- because she was bored just staying at home with him when he was an infant, she asked me if she could clean my house.  Well, I said, “Oh, of course, if you’d really like to.  Be my guest.”  So my little apartment would be like sparkling clean.  She embroidered, too.  She quilted and embroidered two throws for him that I’ve saved, actually, if he ever has -- has kids he can pass them on.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13423.24,13575.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/679","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I was very, very lucky.  Much luckier than a lot of the faculty.  And there was no childcare at the university at that time except for, I think, the child study center.  And maybe the divinity school had a very small operation.  They had a small school.  And then the first one, I think it was the Calvin Hill Daycare.  It was named after a football player who donated some money.  But childcare is pathetic at the university.  It’s just -- it’s really awful.  There wasn’t... I mean, it was expensive and the places were small, and it was hard for faculty to get a placement.  And even little things, like when my son was -- went to school, you know, a lot of faculty sent their kids to private school because the public schools in New Haven were not fantastic.  But the private schools all had too short a day in the beginning and so I sent him to public school because it had a longer... I could get him a full day kindergarten and then I flipped over after that and had to send him to public school, because after he got in upper grades, the day was too short for me.  You know, he’d be home like at 2:30 in the afternoon.  And so even though we had the childcare, I had him go to private school.  He went to Saint Thomas Day School, though we were Episcopalians, because it had a day that started earlier in the morning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13575.22,13675.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/680","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I don’t know how faculty managed, because they certainly weren’t paid enough to really afford daycare.  How they did it and had to do their scholarship, too, beats me.  Because I already had a little head start.  I had been... I was 30 when I had my son and I -- because I had been with the School of Nursing for about seven or eight years, so... In fact, I had a grant.  I had grant money when he was born and my research assistant on the grant, who had been a former student of mine, kept my grant going until I came back to work.  So I was already sort of starting to be established.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13675.21,13723.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/681","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: At that time, would you have called yourself a feminist?  Because 1971 was obviously (inaudible) at the beginning of the second wave of feminism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13726.05,13729.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/682","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah, I think I would have said that I was a feminist, though, you know, not in, probably, the usual sense in those days.  I had been very much influenced by -- by Betty Friedan, and she wasn’t really -- she wasn’t against having a family or a traditional marriage.  And I really sort of agreed with her.  She was -- she was not on the most radical fringes.  I’d say I was a feminist in that I thought that I was really sort of groundbreaking in that I was having a career and then I was having... And then that I was having a family.  But I was in a women’s profession, so that made it kind of strange because it’s hard to be... You can be sort of a feminist on a group level for women’s rights, but when you’re working with a whole group of women, you’re already doing things for each other that wouldn’t ordinarily... You wouldn’t find in the workplace.  So, you know... Yeah, I’d say that -- I’d say that I was a femin... I have always in my heart sort of viewed myself as a feminist and I’ve always tried to work... And I always have felt that -- felt that you could work -- I guess I’m more like (inaudible).  I had felt you could work within the system to change it.  Now I’m not so sure.  I think maybe you have to be a little more radical.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13729.16,13820.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/683","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But I was very... See, I was brought up in a different... I was brought up... I went to... I had a traditional childhood, but then I went to Smith, which was very radical.  It was a little radial then.  I mean -- though it was just starting, and we didn’t really call it then.  But there was a lot of radical things going on.  There were still a lot of traditional women, but it was places like that that women who really wanted to make the world a different place and have a different kind of life would go, so you could always find, you know, a group of women who are challenging... Like, most of my... Almost all of my classmates, in ’62 I graduated, either went... See, this is what I’m seeing.  A few of them got married.  Not that many.  A number of them went into -- went to law school.  That was very popular.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13820.58,13874.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/684","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: A smaller number -- number went into medicine and usually they were among the first women in medical school classes.  Those women knew that they were going to have a really grueling time, because I know that they were cross-examined before they even went to medical school about... They almost wanted them to take a pledge that they would not have any children and have to take maternity leave, you know, in their whole careers, because god forbid you should take away a place from a doctor, you know, who was going to serve man, who was going to serve full-time.  So most of those women, I think, kind of felt that they were not going to get married, that they were going to concentrate on their careers.  And then another whole group went into... This is probably a majority of them.  They did... I’ll sort of make it one big category.  That they became research assistants at Time Life.  They went in at a very low level in those corporate... I mean, sort of journalism, you know, publishing kind of fields thinking that they were going to work their way up, and most of them didn’t make it anywhere.  You know, they were just really exploited.  I mean, they worked for next to nothing for a chance to just get a foot in somewhere and were exploited.  So that was pretty pathetic.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13874.83,13967.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/685","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But then a lot of -- lot of women to do things like, you know, going to New York or one of the big cities, and being able to have an apartment of their own, which wasn’t as common for women to do.  You know, you no longer had to go to the city and then stay at the Barbizon Plaza, the women only hotel, or at the Y.  So... And some women went into teaching.  I guess it’s always been true.  Some women have gone into teaching.  But that was viewed as more of a second class thing, that we should try to do something more innovative.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=13967.53,14004.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/686","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that’s how I managed and I only had one child, so it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t difficult over a period of years.  And my son never knew anything different than having a working mother.  And it’s interesting.  He’s 35 now and he just assumes that all women work.  It wouldn’t have occurred to him, and I think to most of the women of his generation, that they wouldn’t have their own careers, even if they were going to have a family.  That’s a very different world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14007.44,14041.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/687","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  So that really has been a major change, hasn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14041.59,14045.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/688","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14045.13,14045.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/689","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But -- now the sense is that women have to make a choice not to work, rather than make a choice to work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14045.77,14053.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/690","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.  Yeah, I think it definitely is.  I think it is -- it is the other way and people are really questioned as to why they wouldn’t -- why they wouldn’t work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14053.43,14064.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/691","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Just -- just thinking -- not quite connected to that, but somewhat connected, is that I wondered, too, about the sexual politics of Yale.  Because you were here an awful long time working in a bit of an all female environment due to -- when you were very much in a minority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14064.58,14092.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/692","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14092.46,14093.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/693","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And I just wondered if you did have any reflections looking back on those 40 years of the -- of any kinds of patterns or trends in sexual politics of the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14093.04,14104.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/694","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.  That certainly was a really important factor.  And actually, there are some thoughts I’ve had about it that I don’t think I discussed with you before.  But the School of Nursing... Before I go onto the rest of the university.  The School of Nursing had its own sexual politics.  You know, there is always a certain number of women who sort of got ahead with doctors by having relationships with them.  But that was... You know, nobody paid much attention to it.  There were a lot of -- there were a lot of lesbian relationships in the schools of nursing and there were kind of little clicks.  I mean, there were a lot of unmarried women and then there was sort of a group of younger, more radical sort of lesbian feminists.  And it was... If you weren’t in that circle, you weren’t really... It was really hard to kind of be in the inner circle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14104.91,14165.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/695","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But it wasn’t really vic... I mean, they... You know, there was still consideration for people.  But I’d say that because they put a lot of their energy into their careers... Because in those years... I mean, same sex couples just did not have children.  I mean, it just was an unheard of kind of a thing.  So that they were kind of free to concentrate on their careers.  And there was a little bit... I’d say there was like one -- only one instance I know of of harassment of a student.  And we were all pretty aware of it and made it stop, you know, very soon.  But it wasn’t like, you know, having a grievance.  It was like we put personal pressure on the faculty member to let up on the students.  So it was -- from that time, it was pretty much... The ethic was it was pretty much hands-off the students.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14165.17,14223.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/696","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: We had... The dean that was there most of the time, Donna Deers, was a Wesleyan and she was in relationships with a couple of the faculty whose careers she nurtured.  One of them didn’t get tenure.  She came up for tenure and didn’t get tenure because I think there was a little backlash, I mean, from the rest of the faculty who viewed that she had always been favored because she was in a sexual relationship with Donna, and so she was denied tenure and Donna was furious, and this person was furious.  And actually, I was on the committee that denied her tenure.  Part of the problem was that Donna had exploited her and used her work as her own, because they had always jointly published, and so Donna had already taken credit for all of this woman’s work, which was their joint work, and everybody assumed that she was just the assistant when she was actually the one who had generated it.  And the woman in that situation... Let’s see.  It must be about 30 years ago.  She still doesn’t speak to me.  I mean, she’s still in the New Haven community and she really thought it was a personal -- a personal thing.  And for some people, it was a personal thing, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14223.33,14314.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/697","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think.  And then -- then I never told you, but at one point in my career at the school... Let’s see, let me think of when it was.  It was... Must have been in the ‘80s.  Yeah, early ‘80s.  It was when I was married, but I was on the point of getting divorced.  I had a sexual relationship with Donna and I’m not a -- I’m not even a lesbian.  I mean, you know, that isn’t my inclination.  But I was very attracted to her, and I think, looking back on it, that -- I think she really took advantage of me because I was a junior faculty member.  And that -- but the payoff for me was that she really mothered my career.  She really did.  She -- she gave me a lot of advantages and I’m sort of ashamed to admit that I took advantage of that, as well.  But then... Actually, she broke it off with me, but then I broke it -- and then she wanted to get back and I kind of broke it off with her.  And I’ve never had any kind of a relationship like that.  And I think that was definitely -- it was definitely a power politics use kind of thing.  And I’m not saying that my work wasn’t really good, but I think she really got me a lot of special attention in the university.  Like she got me in -- you know, into the fellowship and she proposed me for... Because she had been made a member.  She proposed me for one of the first women members of Mory and we used to go, you know, to Mory’s for dinner a lot, which -- you know, we sort of hung out with the faculty there.  So I did promote my... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14314.14,14445.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/698","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I really -- there was a lot of male/female things in the central university, and particularly in the provost’s office, that a lot of them... Not a lot of the men, but some of the men significantly used their power positions to have sexual relationships with faculty -- the faculty women and staff... And it was pretty... People kind of laughed at it and it was like, “Oh, you know, so and so is... You know, you know him, right.”  And -- or... You know, even on the staff we’d like laugh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14445.2,14479.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/699","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: They would have like a -- you know, he’d have this long conference in the afternoon with another women and we’d all like just roll our eyes, like, “Oh, my god,” you know.  How blatant is he. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14479.85,14491.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/700","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think one of the reasons why I wasn’t as successful as I could have been is that I think if I had played along with that game, then I would have -- I would have gotten a lot more favors.  And I think that it was when the faculty women became more radicalized and there was more of a radical feminist element within the faculty that there started to be hostility between women on the faculty and junior women, and some of the people in the administration that they -- they kind of knew were sexual exploiters.  And it was all unspoken, of course, but there was a lot of animosity between both sides.  And so the university was sort of officially unwilling to capitulate to these women, but basically there was another level of sort of gender stuff going on.  Men were fighting for... You know, it was like fighting tooth and nail to keep, you know, their old authority and control over the women and these women are getting out of control kind of thing.  And actually, the women who fought the hardest didn’t really succeed in the university, partly because I think they used so much energy and time doing that rather than their scholarship.  But their behavior paved the way for... And once things settled down more, then people were more amenable to kind of move on and make concessions to other women and sort of agree that they had a tough life and it was really hard.  And so... And I’m sure it goes on to the present day.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14492.54,14601.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/701","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But it’s... You know, it’s very invisible mostly.  And all the women I know that had engaged in that really... You know, they -- they (inaudible) it a lot.  Mostly they turned out to be women who didn’t succeed as faculty members but got very nice staffer administrative positions within the university.  So they were sort of provided for for life in a different way.  I just thought that was so stupid when I was there.  I thought that was -- I thought it was stupid and demeaning.  And actually, I was a little arrogant because I thought I didn’t need to do stuff like that, that I was so great that I could manage on my own, but little did I know that I couldn’t.  But I’m glad that I -- I’m glad that I didn’t.  I’m sort of sorry that I did at the School of Nursing, but I think that was more that... I think it was more that I was taken advantage of than I was trying consciously, because I really did care about... I did admire and care about this person and she had been... And Donna had been on the faculty since I was a student, so... I share an office, a retirement faculty office with her at the School of Nursing.  She can’t stand for me to be in the office.  I know she can’t, because she jumps out of her skin every time I go in.  We’re usually not there at the same time.  And that’s too bad, because I think if we hadn’t had that personal relationship, which was sort of a secret.  And then because she revealed things to me about herself personally that she would never have wanted anyone to know.  So I’m sort of left, you know, with that.  But it’s way in the past, so... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14601.82,14726.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/702","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: But after the provost’s office, you went back into the -- the nursing school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14726.47,14735.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/703","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14735.24,14736.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/704","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Somewhat against your will?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14736.06,14738.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/705","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.  Yup.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14738.27,14739.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/706","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I wonder what it was like going back, because I think the dean -- you would have been the dean’s boss, more or less?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14739.39,14749.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/707","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I was the dean’s boss and now she became --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14749.68,14752.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/708","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And now she was your --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14752.73,14752.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/709","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: She became my boss.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14753.01,14753.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/710","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I just wondered what --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14753.25,14754.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/711","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was horrible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14754.22,14754.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/712","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: What were the dynamics of all of that was like --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14754.42,14757.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/713","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was horrible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14757.22,14757.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/714","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- both personally and institutionally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14757.42,14759.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/715","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It was really horrible.  First of all, I didn’t want to go back and, you know, I’m not such a saintly person that I wasn’t resentful, even though... Even though I knew that they didn’t know that I saved the School of Nursing.  I felt, at another level, that everybody should be really grateful to me, because none of them would be there if it hadn’t been for me.  And I could have been all of their -- or I could have been all of their bosses, right, you know, but I didn’t do that.  And so -- you know, it was stupid because I couldn’t take credit for something that I couldn’t let anybody know about, you know, so I kind of had that little resentment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14759.66,14803.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/716","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And then in the beginning, people were pretty deferential to me because I was in the provost’s office.  They were in the position of being deferential all the time, at least on the surface.  Except for Judy Krauss, who was the dean.  And I think, actually, for her, it was a way of her working out that she had resent -- I -- she had been my student when she was a graduate student.  And we had been -- we had gotten to be friends after she left -- and I kind of mentored her for a long while, and then... You know, when I got into the provost’s office, and I was kind of her boss... She’s a woman who doesn’t like to have anybody give her orders.  She thinks she knows a lot.  I mean, that’s just her personality.  She’s a very self-confident person.  And when I came back to the school, she kind of punished me, and I think it was her way of letting me know that she was the boss.  I don’t think she did it unconsciously.  I had negotiated to have a really nice salary when I came back and I had written this letter that I’d had Frank Turner sign, that guaranteed me a really nice base salary, which I calculated was where my basic would have been if I hadn’t been in the provost’s office and getting my regular promotions all the way along.  And because I had been there so many years, it also made my salary than anybody else in the school, and she refused to give me this salary.  She said that the letter didn’t say that... She said the base salary -- base in the School of Nursing was not nine months, but 11 months.  And I said, “No, that wasn’t true.”  And she said, “Yes, that’s what the letter said.”  And I -- and she said, “That isn’t what the provost meant.”  Frank was not around at the time.  He was on leave or something.  And I was so mad because I felt like saying to her, “You stupid fool.  I wrote this letter. I know what I meant in this letter, right.”  I mean, how could you possibly turn my words around, you know, I mean to my detriment.  And we had a big fight about it and she compromised.  She gave me the difference as a bonus, a confidential salary bonus for the first year and then she -- boy, she really docked my salary down and kept it down, you know, all the rest of the time.  So she got her re -- she got her revenge.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14803.08,14963.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/717","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So actually, I got treated unjustly at the School of Nursing after I went back.  I mean...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14964.17,14969.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/718","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Would there not have been, fairly, an expectation from the school that -- because you’d had all this administrative experience, that really you should have gone into some kind of administrative position in the School of Nursing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14970.56,14983.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/719","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I refused.  She wanted me to take a chairman -- a program chairmanship and I refused to do it.  When I was thinking of going back to teaching, which I really didn’t want to do, I talked a lot to Frank Turner about it, because he had gone back... You know, he had already gone back to the faculty successfully.  And he said, “By no means, take -- do not take an administrative position, because they’ll just eat you up and you’ll never be compensated for it and you’re not going to enjoy doing administration at that level after, you know, what you’ve been doing.  So just bite the bullet and go back as a regular faculty member.”  So I refused... She offered me a couple of administrative positions and I refused them, and I think that’s another reason why she knocked my salary down, because she didn’t feel that I was being a good and loyal, you know, member of the faculty.  But I didn’t really see that there was any reason for me to... I mean, all the administrative positions she offered me I knew were all terrible headaches.  You know, there were problems.  And I guess she thought I could take of it.  But I thought, you know, “Why should I?  She’s the dean.” ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=14984.02,15052.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/720","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I had to struggle to pick up my scholarship again because things move so fast.  You know, I hadn’t been full-time in my field for so long, you know, and I never really did get completely... I got a -- I got a grant, but it was like in a different area.  It was like working on spiritual... I sort of pioneered another area instead of going into formal research, because there’s no way that I could have caught up on research stuff.  So I was very unhappy when I was there, except with the students.  I liked my students.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15053.44,15085.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/721","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you -- did you find... Did you... I know you said you turned down various administrative positions within the school, but did you not maybe also feel somewhat kind of frustrated by being relegated, as we say in Britain, to the back benches?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15085.78,15103.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/722","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, I knew that that’s what it was and... Yes, I did.  I felt very frustrated but, you know, the reality of it is what could I do about it?  There was nothing I could do about it, you know.  And so that’s one of the disadvantages, because I really would have been... My salary would have been up there, you know, because I would have been very successful if I had stayed.  And I got assigned all the leftover undesirable faculty positions until I was able to get my grant for developing this spirituality and health curriculum, and then I had the freedom to teach the courses that I wanted to teach, pretty much.  And I just sort of served out my time until I was 62, which was about three, four years, I think.  And then I took -- no, until I was 59, and then I took phased retirement, three years phased retirement.  The maximum you could do was three years, up until I was 62, and then I left.  So I had half salary for the last three years I was there, which was really hard for me, because I had this lower salary and then I was only getting half of it, but I was getting all the benefits.  But I got the -- I got to take advantage of the faculty retirement plan that had been my responsibility to develop, so I felt pretty good about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15103.64,15195.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/723","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Tell me -- tell me about the new direction that your -- that your scholarship or your teaching and scholarship took when you went back into the nursing school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15195.23,15209.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/724","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I got really interested... After I had had -- when I had had cancer, I got really... I thought I got really excellent medical care, but I thought that the... Both the medical school and the nursing school were kind of in the dark ages when it came to treating the whole person.  I mean, they didn’t have all those catch phrases then, like holistic health.  That they were looking at your physical illness and they weren’t looking at very much else.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15209.5,15241.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/725","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: For example, I was... And this even seems like a medical issue.  I was -- I had been on hormone replacement before I got cancer, so I had already gone through menopause once, and then I went on -- you know, partially, and then I went on hormone replacement.  And then as soon as I had cancer, they took me off my hormone replacement, so I got to go through menopause twice.  And in fact, it was precipitous because they take you off immediately.  And I had just a miserable time.  I mean, I was -- I was flushing and having hot flashes, and I just felt awful.  I mean, just terrible.  And I’d talk to the -- my oncologist and my radiation oncologist and my, you know, this and that, my surgeon, and I’d say, “I’m having... This is horrible.  I can’t stand this,” you know, and they’d say, “Look, you know, it’s just a consequence of -- “ I mean, which I knew it was -- “of, you know, going off the hormone.”  And they said, “Look, I’m just trying to save your life.”  And it’s like the message was just shut up and suffer with it, because, first of all, we don’t know how to deal with it.  And second of all, we don’t think it’s really that important.  I was really pissed.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15241.03,15320.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/726","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I finally went to this one medical school faculty member who was interested in... Phil Surrel (sp?) who did... He did a lot of women’s health stuff and he had done a lot of sexual -- and he was sort of an outlier at the School of Medicine anyway.  And he said, “Look, you don’t have to suffer.”  I mean, he showed me -- he gave me... He did this skin test where he showed me how it’s... He said, “It’s your skin temperature that’s metabolically going up and down,” and he knew this drug that they used for treating high blood pressure that you could... I forget what the name of it is.  They had a patch so you’d very low level.  And I just put on this patch and everything vanished.  All my symptoms vanished.  And it was like, “Thank god.”  But he took it really... He really talked to me about my quality of life and, you know, a lot of other things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15320.09,15377.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/727","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I thought, “You know, this really needs to be incorporated more, and let people have...”  And then I had sort of a spiritual epiphany myself, and I decided that, you know, career and ambition were not really important to me, that I didn’t know how long I was going to live, that I just wanted to -- I wanted to have a great relationship with god and with the people that I loved, and the rest of it was secondary.  And so I realized -- I started to read about a lot of that and I learned how to take care of myself.  I learned... There are a lot of spiritual practices in Buddhism and then there are some in Christianity and then there was all this stress stuff that was coming out that was sort of semi-religious and I sort of wove a lot of it together, and I got to have a contemplation practice, which was wonderful for me.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15377.09,15426.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/728","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And it dawned on me that there are other people that probably were facing the same issues, had been through the same things, and that their medical practitioners should be knowledgeable about all of this.  And so I got connected with Herb Benson, who was at Harvard, who was doing all that spirituality and health stuff, which was wildly popular at Harvard and was supported by the Templeton Foundation.  And I went to their conference and learned how to incorporate stress reduction and spirituality into healthcare.  It was fantastic.  When I went to that conference, it was like... I got the school to send me to the conference.  Judy Krauss felt so guilty because she had been so mean to me about salary that... I said, “OK, well you got to send me.”  It was a very expensive conference at Harvard.  And they were about a thousand people there and I’d say maybe a hundred of them were, you know, clergy, and maybe 150 were like nurses or social workers and the rest were physicians, because they were smart enough to realize that that was alternate and complementary therapies and the spiritual dimension to care was becoming the new -- was going to be the new wave and that patients wanted that or wanted the doctors at least to be knowledgeable about it.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15426.62,15519.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/729","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I brought that back and I started to put together a grant.  I figured if Herb Benson had gotten the money from Templeton Foundation, that I could do it, too.  So I put in a proposal to them.  Can’t remember what it was for.  $350,000.  It was to develop a curriculum for healthcare professionals and for clergy.  And it was -- the courses were going to be available to the medical school, the nursing school, and the divinity school, all for -- all graduate students.  And I proposed sort of an introduction to world religions and health, and it was an overview of the health beliefs and practices of -- and spiritual practices that went along with health in major world religions.  And I got practitioners from those religions.  Like I got a doctor who was Hindu to come in and tutor.  I got a Jewish doctor to come in and talk about... I got a Buddhist to come in and talk about it.  And people read -- I mean, they read some very serious stuff and they looked at things, and they started to think about what becomes important to people when they’re ill or when they’re at the end of life.  I did it -- I developed a course on alternate and complementary therapies, which was just packed because nobody was teaching that in the university and everyone was eager.  Even if they weren’t an advocate of it, they just wanted to be knowledgeable because so many of their patients were taking the herbs and the this and the that.  And that was second.  And then the third course was living with dying, which is an end of life, which was about -- which really... It was really a course that covered the things that are now pretty much known as palliative care, which really incorporates a lot of personal support and spirituality and pain relief.  That was a big thing and that was something that Cecily Saunders in her hospice had done.  And there’s no necessity for people to be in pain.  And I got a grant for that and I was able to hire some people to help me with it and we implemented it quickly and I got tons of students and that was really very enriching.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15519.91,15665.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/730","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And the courses were jointly listed at the divinity school, too, so divinity students could take them for credit.  And I got some undergraduates, Yale undergraduates.  I didn’t get any medical students because their schedule doesn’t allow them to take regular classes.  But I got a number of public health students who were really interested and I got nursing students.  And it was -- especially the end of life course was very personal.  It’s really interesting that a lot of people want to become -- they want to go to divinity school or to medical school.  They wanted to work with people who are very ill and who are suffering in a variety of ways.  And they’d never had any personal experience with that.  Or they’d had a personal experience and it’s never been resolved.  I remember when... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15665.31,15713.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/731","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: One divinity student wrote about... I mean, one of the first things I had them to do was to write about their own experience -- a personal experience with death that had been most influential in forming their own views about what death was like and what death should be.  And this one person wrote about her dog dying.  That was the only death she had ever experienced in her life and she was going to be a minister.  And I thought, “Oh, my god.  You know, you poor person.  You know, how are you going to deal with people who are dying and you don’t even know...”  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15713.68,15752.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/732","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: You know, so we did a lot of things in the course.  We said what the process of dying was like physically and what people go through psychologically.  It was a very -- it was a very rewarding course and I got to know a lot of students through it.  Because it kind of opened you up at a more personal level.  And I taught that jointly with the chaplain from the hospital, too, so that was really good.  So it was sort of a multidisciplinary course.  And I was very happy with that.  But the School of Nursing -- they were happy that I got money from the Templeton Foundation, and the university was thrilled, because they had been trying to get money from the Templeton’s for years.  But the Templeton’s wouldn’t give me any more money after the grant was over.  They wanted the university to show their commitment by picking up the (inaudible) courses and the curriculum that we’d done.  And I found out later that Templeton Foundation really didn’t -- weren’t -- I mean, they weren’t trying to be supportive of me, that they had been, for years, trying to influence the Yale Medical School to teach something in that area and that when the medical saw that I got money for it, they did actually put in a grant from the Templeton Foundation to teach something about end of life care to students.  So I was... I was a Templeton Foundation tool, I just kind of got the medical school to come around. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15752.4,15838.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/733","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: It’s interesting that, you know, at the beginning of your nursing career or nursing academic career, I should say, academic nursing career, and at the end of it, you were involved in what turned out to be cutting edge changes in the profession itself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15838.51,15858.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/734","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, I was.  You’re right.  I was.  And you know, I think it’s... You know when I told you earlier that I felt I had the talent for seeing an organization as a whole?  I think that I was able to have... At those points in my career, I was able to have a vision of where health care needed to go and might well go, because when I started out, I was doing chronic illness, which nobody... That was when everything was deinstitutionalized and they didn’t know what the hell to do with all those psychotic people who were out on the street now.  And I -- I developed a whole approach to caring for them that not even physicians knew how to do.  That’s why I had gotten such nice federal grants and everything.  But then I couldn’t keep up with that because then I also couldn’t get the population because the medical school was trying to keep all the populations close to their chest and I couldn’t do research without a population.  So -- yeah.  And then the spiritually and health did turn out to be... You know, it’s like a big wave.  It’s a big boom.  And somebody is still teaching the end of life course at the School of Nursing that I started.  But they dropped the other two courses because there just wasn’t anybody who had the expertise to do it and the school didn’t want to spend the money on it because they didn’t think it was valuable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15858.07,15949.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/735","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Did you have any problems persuading the school to kind of accept (inaudible) sort of academic credential for things that are not generally regarded as academic subjects, like alternative therapies and... I think your -- your prac -- (inaudible) practitioner which -- it’s --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15949.34,15968.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/736","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15968.66,15969.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/737","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- it doesn’t exactly have a high status, I would think.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15969.48,15975.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/738","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No, it doesn’t, but where I kind of aimed it and the orientation I took on the practice.  Because every course that I taught was not just an academic course.  I wanted there to be a hands on component and (inaudible).  Like even in the world religions course, I wanted them to go to some kind of a religious heal -- I wanted them to go to the healing service.  Really just healing service in a denomination -- a religion that they weren’t familiar with.  And I wanted them to not only write about it, but to tell me how -- that they would incorporate that in their care.  And then with the -- with the other courses, they were -- they were projects that were all hands-on and how you’d bring it to your own care.  And I also made them -- also do presentations because I told them that I wanted them to learn to speak about these things in scientific language or they wouldn’t be able to speak to a scientific community.  So it was like -- so you taught them the secret language, right?  I mean, so that they could make it acceptable.  So I thought that I was really kind of helping them and... Tell me again what you were... I’m losing my train of thought of the question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=15975.68,16061.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/739","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No, you were talking... What we were basically just talking about -- how to make it academically respectful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16061.36,16067.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/740","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, academically successful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16067.91,16069.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/741","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Respectful -- respectful, I think, was --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16069.04,16069.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/742","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Respect...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16069.74,16071.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/743","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And I think you’ve explained that pretty well.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16071.04,16075.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/744","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, but I also... The one group -- medical group that was becoming very receptive to it was oncology -- cancer.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16075.39,16087.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/745","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16087.35,16087.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/746","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because it was already apparent by that time... I mean, hospice movement had already started.  It was already apparent that there were a lot of people who were beyond treatment and were going to need -- were going to need to be seen by the medical establishment, and so they had to have a repertoire of something, you know, to do.  So, you know, we were able to couch it in terms... In fact, they called me in.  This is really amazing.  When I was teaching the Reiki -- they -- they know offer Reiki at Yale New Haven.  They’ve got a Reiki at Yale New Haven.  They’ve got a Reiki volunteer program, and it started out in oncology, but they do it other places.  They called me in.  The neuro staff at Yale Medical School, they had a patient.  You know, they -- they knew about my work.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16087.51,16137.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/747","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: They had a patient who -- a woman, I would say maybe her late 40s, who had intractable seizures and she had been hospitalized for months already at Yale New Haven and they could not control her seizures.  So she was like completely bedridden.  She was always seizing.  You know, they were afraid she was having brain damage.  They didn’t know.  I mean, they were at their wits end.  And they called me in and a couple of the other people that I had trained as volunteers to give her Reiki and it was really amazing, because she was being monitored constantly because of all this neurological stuff that was going on with her.  And, of course, I’d give her -- we’d give her Reiki in the bed.  And every -- and she also had problems sleeping because of all of this neuro activity that was going on.  And every time we would give her Reiki, she would fall into a deep peaceful sleep, and you could see -- you could watch her brain waves even out and, you know, her respirations became regular.  So -- because they could watch on the monitor, you know, they... Because at first they thought it was sort of voodoo, but they were so desperate.  And that was like really -- that was really amazing.  You know, like a lot of people came around it.  But they still kind of dismissed it, you know, until they were in desperate cases.  But I thought it was interesting that they became more amenable to trying something new.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16137.06,16223.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/748","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And because they had the data on physiological changes that were occurring, they couldn’t really deny that something was actually happening.  I mean, my guess is that this poor woman was probably so pricked and poked and, you know, anxious about her condition that it was just fantastic for her to have someone -- have her lie down comfortably and just put their hands on her in a loving way and like hold her, you know, for a while.  She was like able to let go and go to sleep.  But there may be something there, too.  I’m not really sure.  I’m not sure about the scientific part of it myself.  But I don’t care.  As long as it works, I think that’s OK.  It’s like me giving the sterile water to all of the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16223.11,16267.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/749","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16267.51,16267.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/750","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- the surgical patients in pain. Oh, my god.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16267.63,16273.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/751","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: When did you begin to form the notion that you might want to take up yet another career in your retirement and to go to divinity school and become a minister?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16273.68,16287.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/752","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Well, it was only -- it was only a year ago, actually.  I’d never wanted to be a minister, particularly, because my husband was a minister.  And then I’ve taken like a long sabbatical from... After I left Yale, I was so happy.  People said, “Well, what project are you going to do when you leave?”  That’s what everyone asked the retiring fac... What are you going to be working on?  And I’d say, “I’m going to be -- I’m going to be getting a life.”  And people would laugh.  And I’d say, “No, I’m really serious.  I’m going to get a life.”  And that’s what I tried to do, you know.  I just tried to have -- I just tried to be an ordinary person.  I tried not to think of myself as a Yale faculty member and just do ordinary things.  I learned to knit.  I’m interested in cooking.  My husband and I did a lot of traveling.  We spent a lot of time with our kids.  I tried reading in, you know, new areas that I had never read before.  And then like last summer -- and I was really happy. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16288.31,16349.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/753","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And then last summer, it just... And I’ve done a lot of spiritual practices.  That had been a very important and a deep thing in my life, and I’ve thought about doing spiritual direction and doing more with Reiki.  And none of that seemed like really right.  And then I -- last summer I read this book about a woman who became a minister after her husband died and it -- and it just grabbed me that I would really like to do that.  And then I thought, “That was the craziest idea you’ve ever had in your life.  It makes absolutely no sense.  It’s not anything that you want to do.”  And the idea just would not go away.  It just -- it was like... You know, it sounds naïve in a way, but it’s like... I felt I had a call and it was just something that I couldn’t ignore.  So finally I said, “Well, the hell with it.  I’ll try to go to -- I’ll take some courses at Harvard Seminary.”  I had taken courses there in the past just out of interest and that’ll probably put it all to rest.  So I called up and they said -- it was like August already and the woman said, “You know, it’s really past -- way past the deadline for applying for school, but if you were to come and take some courses, you could...”  As you took them as a matriculated student... They had a payment plan.  You can’t -- couldn’t have a payment plan.  So I said, “Oh, that seems like a pretty good idea, but it’s much too late for me to apply.”  And she said, “Well, I’ll specially process it if you can get the things in.”  It was like a miracle.  I got all my transcripts and all my recommendations in within like two weeks and Yale had to go into the archives to get my transcript because I had graduated so long ago.  And it was like hilarious.  But I got it in, they accepted me, and I took two courses and I really liked them.  And then I took three courses this last term, and the more I -- courses I took, the more I really liked it, and I found out that it wasn’t just a matter of taking the courses for a credential or for a new career, because I’m not even sure how that’s going to work.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16349.43,16489.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/754","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But I told them in admissions that I wanted to combine my background.  And I really do sort of believe this.  That I want to fi -- I want to work with people who are suffering, and now I want to understand it not just from the physical point of view, but I want to understand it from a theological point of view, from the meaning point of view.  The mean -- making meaning of your life point of view.  And that’s what a theological education will give me.  And I think that I’ll have the unique advantage of... And I’d like to work... I mean, of having both... I have a foot in both worlds, actually, in that I just think I have a call to do that.  And I don’t know how it’s -- exactly it’s going to work it’s way out, but I think that it will.  And I loved theology.  Gosh, I really loved doing... I just got so intrigued with the Odyssey.  I mean, you know, it’s like whoever thought that I would just get intrigued by the problem of evil or medieval Christianity.  It’s like, oh, my gosh.  You know, it’s like who knew that all this stuff was here.  And so I’ve just been really happy.  And I think, in a way... Sometimes I think it’s really foolish.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16489.12,16563.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/755","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And I applied to Yale and they accepted me.  Not only did they accept me, but they gave me financial aid, which I thought was astonishing.  Yale doesn’t give any financial aid or discount for retired faculty who want to take courses.  Isn’t that ridiculous?  And I said to them, “The state of Connecticut does if I wanted to go to UConn.”  I mean, I can’t get a divinity degree there, but I would get to go for nothing, you know, because I’m a retired person.  And they said, “Well, we don’t do that.”  And I said -- they said, “It would set a precedent.”  And I said, “Well, how many... How many retired -- how many emeritus faculty do you think would want to get a divinity degree?”  And they just didn’t want to talk to me about it.  So who knows what’s going to -- what’s going to evolve.  So next year I’m going full time and we’ll see what evolves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16564.21,16619.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/756","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Now I think -- you know, I want to work with people who are suffering.  After a last -- a theology course that I took... Susan, I really like this stuff and I think maybe I could... Maybe I could be both.  Maybe I could be -- do a little hands on, but I could be -- I could develop a theology in the area which would be a way of communicating with practitioners in two languages, that would help them to bring the two things together.  And I think I could do it, but I’m going to let things evolve, and sort of see how it goes.  So I’m having a second career.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16619.38,16654.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/757","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: It’s interesting that you’re going to divinity school because, of course, when you were... At the time, you might have been thinking of doing theology the first time around if you had been, but you wouldn’t have been able to go --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16654.63,16674.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/758","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16674.34,16674.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/759","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- to be able to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16674.46,16674.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/760","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: No.  I wouldn’t have been able to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16674.78,16675.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/761","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, yes.  Because it’s --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16675.22,16675.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/762","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16675.46,16675.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/763","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: -- relatively recently that women are -- are doing degrees in divinity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16675.66,16682.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/764","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, yes.  So I think it’s pretty exciting.  And we’ll see.  I think it’s a way of, you know, to keep your brain from atrophying.  But I do feel like a personal call to do it and I guess it’s a way of sort of keeping the connection with the university.  But I didn’t want to just keep a connection as a retired person hanging around and having cocktail parties and going to the little faculty lectures.  I mean, that’s OK, but I’d rather be doing something more exciting, you know.  And I think it would be good to... ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16682.88,16722.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/765","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: There are a wide range of students in the class, incoming class.  I’d say about a third of them are second career people, and that would be like second careers all the way up from the thirties maybe to -- I’d say the next oldest group to me would be like people who are in their 50s.  A number of lawyers and people who have been in the corporate world.  And you can sort of see that.  I think those corporate people are trying to -- trying to work out their guilt for having made so much money in the past.  But that’s OK if that’s what they want to do.  And then there are some young people there with their mommies and daddies who are just out of college and I thought, “Oh, my gosh, what babies.  You know, this is like...”  And then there’s just a whole range of other people, men, women.  So I think it’ll -- I think it’ll be good.  I think it’ll be very good.  So you can come back and interview me in another -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16722.89,16785.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/766","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  You might even have Tony Blair as a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16785.59,16787.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/767","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- ten years.  Huh?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16787.87,16788.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/768","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You might even have Tony Blair as a...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16788.54,16788.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/769","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I want to take a course with Tony Blair, but I’m sure that it is going to be... He’s going to be teaching a course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16788.94,16794.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/770","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes.  He’s -- I think he’s teaching a seminar next -- (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16794.12,16797.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/771","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He’s teaching a seminar with -- what is his name?  Maroslav Volf and I wanted to take Volf’s course on systematic theology because I’ve heard that he’s really... He’s really very top notch.  I don’t know him.  A top notch theologian and he does the policy and re -- it’s not called policy and religion, but there’s an institute that they have that’s joint between the university and the divinity school.  And that’s what Blair is --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16797.33,16826.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/772","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I did -- yes, interested in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16826.5,16826.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/773","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- really interested in.  But he’s going to teach the course, but I would imagine that it’s probably going to be very limited membership.  But I would think that he would also have to do something big, you know, a public -- ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16826.78,16836.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/774","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Public.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16836.75,16837.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/775","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- public lecture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16837.22,16837.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/776","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16837.96,16838.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/777","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Don’t you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16838.13,16838.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/778","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah, I would have thought so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16838.6,16839.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/779","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Because it’s a -- it’s joint between the school of organization and management and the divinity school, his appointment is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16839.74,16845.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/780","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16845.85,16846.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/781","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: So I’m going to be like Tony Blair.  Look at Tony Blair.  Is he having... Didn’t -- he got converted to Catholicism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16846.05,16853.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/782","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16853.13,16853.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/783","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And he’s devoting his life to -- as sort of an -- like an ethical spiritual thing with him and public life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16853.44,16861.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/784","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes, it’s -- yes, it’s globalization and spirituality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16861.85,16864.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/785","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16864.56,16864.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/786","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Or globalization and religion.  I can’t remember exactly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16864.8,16866.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/787","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16866.32,16868.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/788","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16868.61,16869.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/789","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.  And he’s -- he must be about my age.  Do you think?  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16869.4,16872.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/790","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, no, he’s younger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16872.31,16873.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/791","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: How old do you think he --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16873.84,16874.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/792","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think he’s younger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16874.16,16874.46"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/793","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh.  Too bad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16874.48,16875.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/794","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I’m not sure that he’s yet 60.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16876.05,16878.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/795","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: He’s really cute.  I saw the number of people... They were laughing their heads off.  I said, “Oh, I hope we get a course -- take a course with him.  He’s so cute.”  And students -- some of my fellow students were just laughing because, I mean, they view him as like ancient.  You know, like an old... “Cute?  How could you think that Tony...”  But I think -- I think he’s very cute.  I -- I don’t know him.  Have you ever met him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16878.58,16898.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/796","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I never met him, no.  No, I haven’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16898.25,16900.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/797","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Do you think he’s a sexually dynamic person?  I mean, I would bet that he’s a lively --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16900.87,16905.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/798","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, according to -- well, according to Cherie’s memoir, which is just being published, I think yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16905.81,16910.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/799","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: OK, well good.  I have something to look forward to.  But now that he’s got religion, he might be... That’s -- that’s never stopped anybody else, has it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16910.51,16919.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/800","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: No, I don’t think it has.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16919.74,16920.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/801","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: But it... I mean, I can laugh and sort of... I can laugh and joke about it, but I feel like I’m in the right place at the right time.  I mean, who would know... Who would have thought that Tony Blair is coming to be a faculty member, that he’s going on for a second career.  And I’m thinking that I invented this idea to go onto a second career and here everybody must be doing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16920.55,16945.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/802","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.  It’s the coming thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16945.54,16946.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/803","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It’s the coming thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16946.75,16947.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/804","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16947.63,16948.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/805","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Looking back on the 40 years so that you’ve been in and around Yale, and you’ve seen, you know, a steady growth, especially since the early ‘70s, of women in senior faculty and administration.  I just wonder, are those women transforming the institution or have they just become more adept at adjusting to the existing structures?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16948.61,16975.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/806","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think they’ve become more adept at adapting to the current structures.  I think the only thing that... I think that what is driving any changes that are there is the new generations of students that are coming who have a different view of the world and are demanding different things.  I think all of the changes that I’ve seen have really come from below, except for maybe, you know, some of the health benefit things.  But... And I think that’s what’s going to change it.  I think that they just aren’t going to attract the kind of students that they want here unless they make changes and reform themselves.  That’s the way the world is going to be, I think.  But I don’t think that Yale was necessarily going to go (inaudible).  I think that’s going to be the same process as when they admitted women.  It’s going to be slow evolution.  Yale can’t move that quickly, I don’t think.  It’s... You know, it’s just not set up that way.  It can’t move that quickly, first of all, because it has... And I think a lot of it’s greatness is that it has a very -- a lot of deep traditions that ground it, and that’s very... I think that’s very useful for the individuals within the system, because it gives them a deep sense of meaning and purpose and a lot of space to do certain really innovative things that you can't do.  Things that take time and reflection that you can’t do out in the world.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=16976.21,17078.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/807","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: On the other hand, I think that Yale -- you know, I’ve said it’s very corporate and I think what administration it has is very corporate, I think that Yale -- and I always described it this way to any faculty that was coming -- being recruited to the university.  Or especially deans, new deans when they came.  I said that you have to view -- to understand Yale administration, you have to view it as a mom and pop organization.  I don’t know if you know that phrase.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17078.61,17105.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/808","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yes. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17106.0,17106.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/809","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Like a mom and pop store, a corner store.  You know, it’s like... It really all swings on the personalities of the people who are in the administrative positions.  And I think certainly it is driven by sort of the collective personality and will of the faculty of arts and sciences and I think that’s the way it should be.  I really do.  And when you put them all together, there’s just some kind of synergy there that makes things happen and sort of keeps administrators humble.  And I’m always glad to see something like what happened at Harvard when, you know, they got rid of their president that they didn’t like.  So that power of... I think it’s really -- it’s really an intellectual power and it’s also an integrity that resides there that should -- should stay there.  And I think Yale... I think the FAS faculty could still exert its will on the university at any time they wanted to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17106.54,17184.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/810","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: It’s really amazing to me that they could do that because, you know, they squabble in their little departments and they have their little political fashion and when it’s really down to crunch time, that something is important to the institution, somehow they all come together and surprisingly just wallop the hell out of whoever is trying to oppose them.  I mean, it’s amazing.  It really is amazing.  And I think that maybe -- that it’s the kind of people who are here, but I do believe very strongly... I know a lot of people disagree.  That the tenure system is very important because it gives people -- it at least invites people to be the best that they can be, to have some intellectual integrity, moral integrity and to not fear for what they’re going to do.  Though a lot of people can’t really operate at that level.  It’s sort of hard to get out of your groove, you know, the competitive fight.  But I think the best of them do and that the spirit is there.  So I think the university and the charge are two institutions that are redeeming the world and that we have to work really hard.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17184.43,17259.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/811","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You asked me why I didn’t... You know, why I would stay in the office, you know, why I would hang around the university.  Because I really believe in the university as an idea and that I think if people of integrity and goodwill are not willing to, you know, sort of give their lives to that, that it won’t continue.  So...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17259.94,17282.75"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/812","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Do you think that as more women come into the academy, you know, just -- and I’m not -- that’s generally what happened.  You know, some people say that there’s been a certain feminization of the academy, and because of that, there’s a sort of gender devaluation that goes alongside.  I mean, I think I read last week -- it’s been a report that’s been out, I think, for maybe a month or two, that somebody at the University of California at Irvine did looking at their own faculty.  And apparently with -- the conclusion was... I’m quoting here.  “When a man is a department chair, the position confers status, respect and power.  When a woman becomes department chair, the power and status seem diminished.”  That when women do get into positions of power as tenured or as chairs or in the administration, as you were, that there’s a sort of parallel devaluation that goes on simply on the grounds of gender. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17284.84,17355.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/813","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I think that that’s true, but I think that you’re seeing a parallel to what has happened in the church.  If you really look at the church, that the dynamic force -- vital force -- a live force within any of the... You know, that supposedly Protestant, Christian... I mean, as it was dying, right, I mean, in Europe and, you know, in this country people were... And women.  And it was because -- a lot of it has become devalued because -- I think it’s sort of a mutual thing.  As things were... As the position was declining in prestige, there was more opportunity for women to come in, and the more women came in, the more -- less prestigious it became.  But I think that’s -- I think that’s just an evolutionary process.  It’s not bad.  I think it’s like a way for the institution to reform itself, and that the pendulum swings one way, and then it swings the other way.  But it’s -- in a way, it’s going to -- it’s going to make it evolve into something else.  And I truly believe that, yes, it is going to devalue it, but it’s going to devalue it from the standpoint of the way people are looking at it presently.  But a new set of values within the, you know, base structure of the university are going to arise and it’ll be a much better place for everybody.  I think we’ll get to the point where it won’t make any difference whether it’s a man or a woman.  I think it’s going to be on the basis of, what do you call it, a meritocracy?  That it’ll be on the basis of ability.  Eventually.  But I think the university is probably going to move more quickly than the rest of the, you know, secular society.  I just -- I just think that -- I think that it will.  I don’t think... Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17355.63,17480.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/814","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So you’re optimistic?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17481.38,17483.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/815","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I’m very optimistic.  I think that’s the way things should be.  I don’t think that what... I think that we should... We should modify -- be willing to modify or -- what we value and things that we invest with authority.  Should modify those on the basis of reality, of what is in the world and that’s very painful sometimes (inaudible).  Wasn’t it in the -- is your husband a medieval --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17483.15,17529.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/816","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17529.17,17529.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/817","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- historian?  Wasn’t that whole... Before the enlightenment, the whole theme of things being topsy-turvy that...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17529.33,17538.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/818","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Oh, the (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17538.84,17540.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/819","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yes. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17540.14,17542.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/820","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Aristotle remove --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17542.06,17542.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/821","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17542.98,17543.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/822","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: World turns upside down.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17543.51,17546.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/823","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: World turns upside down, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17546.05,17546.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/824","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17546.58,17546.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/825","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Which is... I mean, if you can think about it, it’s kind of the same process.  It seems to be...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17546.7,17551.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/826","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: You can’t -- you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17551.29,17554.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/827","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: That’s right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17554.78,17554.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/828","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Not make an omelette without breaking eggs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17554.98,17555.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/829","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17555.57,17555.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/830","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, this is the same thing, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17555.69,17557.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/831","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I found that out in my theology -- because there’s a lot of imagery --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17557.78,17561.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/832","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17561.41,17562.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/833","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: -- you know, that has to do with, you know... And I wasn’t aware of that.  But, I mean, first it was like there was much less and then that became a major theme, right?  Things kind of righted themselves.  We all survived, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17562.22,17582.09"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/834","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And it did end up in a different place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17582.11,17584.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/835","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And it ended up in a different place.  But the university has survived -- survived all through it and so did the church.  They’ve taken some pretty stupid positions, I think, at certain times along the way, but... Yeah, it ended up in a different place, but not -- not necessarily the worst place.  Not necessarily... I mean, I just think it has... I think it is... I think things are moving forward, but I think change is inevitable and the university tries to resist it and I think gender -- probably gender and I would say that race is going to be -- we’re going to see a lot of changes.  I think our current democratic primary stuff is just a small reflection of something that’s simmering, you know, deep down inside of everything.  And I think that’s good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17584.85,17644.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/836","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: How would you like to be remembered?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17644.05,17650.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/837","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: That’s a hard question.  I think I’d like to be remembered as... I’d like to be remembered as somebody who really loved and treasured the idea of the university, and of Yale in particular.  And I did my best to help it to live into and to grow, and that I would hope that it would provide as many opportunity -- I wanted other people to be able to have the opportunities that I had and I would hope that I made that come about a little bit.  I think that’s basically it.  And you know what?  It’s not so... At one time it would have been terrifically important for me to be remembered.  I mean, it’s very meaningful to me that you’re doing this archive, but it’s less... I guess as you grow older, you kind of realize that you’re not that important individually, that the good that you’ve done will stay behind and that it’s not really... It’s not really important that you even be remembered and that after a certain point, you’re not going to be remembered anymore, and that that’s all right.  So as long as the institutional structure survives and carries forth the values, I think that that’s what really matters.  I think it would be really terrible... I mean, I can’t imagine -- I can’t imagine what our world would be like without the Yale’s and the Harvard’s and the Cambridge’s and the Oxford’s.  What would we be like, you know?  We could be like barbarians, right, or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17660.38,17789.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/838","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: I mean, even now people don’t remember a lot of... I mean, a lot of it is memory, I guess, of what we’re sort of building on.  (inaudible) in my theology class, for example.  People don’t even -- the younger students don’t even know what we’re talking about, you know, a lot of it.  And there’s laughing.  You know, they were talking about post-modernism and people don’t even know what modernism is, I mean.  It’s like... And so that’s sort of the way the world goes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17789.32,17834.45"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/839","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: It’s like my -- my older daughter, when she was about four, asked me very seriously when she... We were having just a little talk about something else.  She said, “Mummy, when you were a little girl, was the world in black and white?”  Because she’d only ever seen pictures of me in black and white.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17834.47,17854.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/840","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Oh, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17854.8,17855.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/841","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: So she was really worried about that.  Thank you very much, Ann.  That was great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17855.92,17863.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/842","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Thank you.  This has been a wonderful experience for me and I think this is a wonderful project.  And you’ve done a fantastic job, I think, in at least getting me to talk about a lot of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17863.69,17874.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/843","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: Well, I’m very glad that you did.  It’s really a unique insight into some of the workings of the institution.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17874.2,17882.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/844","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17883.12,17884.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/845","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: And I’m beginning to build a picture which is very interesting and diverse.  So thanks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17884.21,17891.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/846","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: And, you know, I just want to say one thing.  I think I’ve... Just thinking about, you know, all the experiences and the sexism that I see, I hope that it’s come across that I can kind of see all the flaws, you know, but... And I can kind of laugh at it, you know, now, particularly in hindsight.  But it’s really funny that, you know... I just -- I don’t love the university any the less for all of this.  So I hope that that comes across.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17891.27,17924.36"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/847","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"FLORENCE MINNIS: I think it does.  I think it does.  And you’ll get to see when you read your interview -- when you read your transcript.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17924.38,17930.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/848","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ANN AMELING: Um-hmm, um-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17930.91,17931.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/849","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"END OF RECORDING","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262#t=17932.98,17933.11"}]},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48955/file/122262/transcript/31923/annotation/850","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/031/923/original/transcript_1693961715.vtt20230906-1288021-loyiuk?1693961715","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/031/923/original/transcript_1693961715.vtt20230906-1288021-loyiuk?1693961715"}]}]}]}