{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/tt4fn11p8d/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Doane, Winifred, 2009 June 3"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Doane, Winifred, 2009 June 3. Oral Histories Documenting Yale University Women (RU 1051). Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library.\n\n https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/resources/2559."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/801864"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["mssa.ru.1051 (EAD ID)","RU 1051 (Call Number)","ru_1051_2012-a-038_doane_winifred_audiorecording.mp3 (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2009 June 3 (Creation)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["The materials are open for research. (Accessrestrict)","Winifred W. Doane was born on January 7, 1929, and raised on City Island, New York. Her parents were educators and firm advocates of women’s education: her father a founding member of the School of Architecture at City College, and her mother a special education teacher for many years on Manhattan’s Lower East Side.   A talented all-rounder at Walton High School in the Bronx, Doane was inspired by her science teacher to major in science at university.  She graduated from Hunter College in 1950 with a B.A. in zoology and botany, winning many of the science prizes.   In 1952, she gained a M.S. in Zoology and Genetics at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.    She began her doctoral studies there but married a fellow graduate student, Charles “Chuck” Doane the following year when he completed his Ph.D.  Their early married life was somewhat peripatetic as Doane’s husband established his career, but they had also agreed that once they settled Doane would continue her doctoral studies.  Consequently, she taught at Millsaps College, Mississippi, for two years, then at Washington University, St. Louis, before coming to New Haven, Connecticut. where Chuck Doane took a position at the Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station.  Winifred Doane enrolled on the Yale Ph.D. program, graduating in 1960.  The Doanes adopted a baby son in 1965.\n\nDuring nearly twenty years at Yale, Winifred Doane held a number of appointments:  laboratory teaching assistant in Zoology (1956-1958), National Science Foundation Predoctoral Research Fellow (1958-1960), National Institutes of Health Postdoctoral Trainee in Genetics (1960-1962), Faculty Research Associate, Biology (1962-1975) and Lecturer, Biology (1965-1975).   She was one of the early test cases in which the newly established Yale Affirmative Action office attempted to have a number of Yale’s longstanding women scientists promoted into faculty ladder positions in order to give them the possibility of tenure.  This resulted in Doane’s promotion to Associate Professor, Biology (1975-1977).  Doane’s husband retired soon after this, leaving her free to apply for a tenured position elsewhere.  She was appointed Professor of Zoology at Arizona State University in 1977, and then Professor, Molecular/Cell Biology, in 1992.  She retired in 1998.  \n\nWinifred Doane specialized in the developmental, biochemical and molecular genetics of Drosophila (fruit flies) and other insects. One of her major discoveries was to identify the “skinny gene” (adipose).  She was the recipient of many research grants from the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation throughout her academic life.  She is the author of more than 120 research papers and articles related to her work. A major review chapter on the role of hormones in insect development was contributed to S.J. Counce \u0026amp; C.H. Waddington’s Developmental Systems: Insects  (Academic Press. 1972).\n\nActive in the Association of Women Scientists (AWIS) from its inception, she was also the founder and first president of the Central Arizona Chapter of AWIS.   Doane is an American Association for the Advancement of Science Fellow.  In 2009, AWIS, in conjunction with AAAS, honored her for her “commitment to the achievement of equity for women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.”  Doane’s service to the scientific community at a national level included being Chair of the Responsibilities Committee of the Society for Developmental Biology, 1971-1974, during which time she produced “Sexisms Satirized,” a humorous book of cartoons highlighting sexism in science; she was also a member of the Congressional Liaison Committee of the Genetics Society of America, 1993-1995.   Doane was a founding council member of the ASU Emeritus College, which was established in 2004 and continued to be particularly active in its mentoring program for young faculty. (Bioghist)","Winifred Doane begins her interview with an account of her family and educational background and the formative experiences which shaped her early life.  She talks extensively about her mother’s work and familial attitudes to women’s education and careers, going on to reflect on her undergraduate years at Hunter College and the beginnings of her postgraduate education at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Doane recalls the graduate culture there and how she met her future husband.  Negotiating marriage and motherhood to enable her to achieve her own academic and professional ambitions is a recurrent theme in the interview.   \n\nMost of the interview is devoted to the twenty years she spent at Yale.  Doane recalls various ways in which Yale was a challenging environment for women scientists, and recounts many personal experiences of sexism and discrimination, whilst, at the same time acknowledging the support and mentorship of a number of her male colleagues, like Donald Poulson and Evelyn Hutchinson whom she found supportive and respectful.  She reflects to what extent the ways in which the cultural attitudes of Yale’s scientists towards women in science mirrored attitudes in the scientific world at large.  An account is given of what she encountered at the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health, especially in respect of grant applications she made in the late 1960s and early 1970s. She also recalls how what she regards as the then structural sexism in the science establishment also affected her husband’s career because of the fact he had a working wife.   The issue of tenure at Yale had particular difficulties for women, as she then explains, recounting in detail how they were addressed in the early years of Affirmative Action at Yale. Thus a context is provided for her own tenure experience.   Doane outlines the circumstances of her resignation from Yale and her move to Arizona State University, reflecting on both the losses and gains she experienced in terms of her career by leaving Yale.  Then she explains how her experiences at Yale influenced how she conducted her academic life after she left, and affirms her lasting commitment to mentoring young women scientists.\n\nDoane charts her growing awareness of feminist issues in the late 60s and the ambivalence she found amongst both male and female colleagues towards affirmative action.  She explains how she became involved in the Association of Women in Science (AWIS) and other scientific bodies in the early 1970s, and her commitment to raising awareness of sexism and discrimination through them. These early involvements culminated in the publication of “Sexisms Satirized” in 1976.    Finally, she shares her views on and impressions of the new generation of women scientists’ prospects in academic life, addressing the issue of how women are changing the academy and how it is changing them, in the wider context of how science itself is changing. (Scope and Content Note)","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;6d507f1c-34f2-497d-a4c4-8dc9513cf09a (Other Finding Aid Note)","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software. (Processinfo)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["The materials are open for research.","Winifred W. Doane was born on January 7, 1929, and raised on City Island, New York. Her parents were educators and firm advocates of women’s education: her father a founding member of the School of Architecture at City College, and her mother a special education teacher for many years on Manhattan’s Lower East Side.   A talented all-rounder at Walton High School in the Bronx, Doane was inspired by her science teacher to major in science at university.  She graduated from Hunter College in 1950 with a B.A. in zoology and botany, winning many of the science prizes.   In 1952, she gained a M.S. in Zoology and Genetics at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.    She began her doctoral studies there but married a fellow graduate student, Charles “Chuck” Doane the following year when he completed his Ph.D.  Their early married life was somewhat peripatetic as Doane’s husband established his career, but they had also agreed that once they settled Doane would continue her doctoral studies.  Consequently, she taught at Millsaps College, Mississippi, for two years, then at Washington University, St. Louis, before coming to New Haven, Connecticut. where Chuck Doane took a position at the Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station.  Winifred Doane enrolled on the Yale Ph.D. program, graduating in 1960.  The Doanes adopted a baby son in 1965.\n\nDuring nearly twenty years at Yale, Winifred Doane held a number of appointments:  laboratory teaching assistant in Zoology (1956-1958), National Science Foundation Predoctoral Research Fellow (1958-1960), National Institutes of Health Postdoctoral Trainee in Genetics (1960-1962), Faculty Research Associate, Biology (1962-1975) and Lecturer, Biology (1965-1975).   She was one of the early test cases in which the newly established Yale Affirmative Action office attempted to have a number of Yale’s longstanding women scientists promoted into faculty ladder positions in order to give them the possibility of tenure.  This resulted in Doane’s promotion to Associate Professor, Biology (1975-1977).  Doane’s husband retired soon after this, leaving her free to apply for a tenured position elsewhere.  She was appointed Professor of Zoology at Arizona State University in 1977, and then Professor, Molecular/Cell Biology, in 1992.  She retired in 1998.  \n\nWinifred Doane specialized in the developmental, biochemical and molecular genetics of Drosophila (fruit flies) and other insects. One of her major discoveries was to identify the “skinny gene” (adipose).  She was the recipient of many research grants from the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation throughout her academic life.  She is the author of more than 120 research papers and articles related to her work. A major review chapter on the role of hormones in insect development was contributed to S.J. Counce \u0026 C.H. Waddington’s \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eDevelopmental Systems: Insects \u003c/title\u003e (Academic Press. 1972).\n\nActive in the Association of Women Scientists (AWIS) from its inception, she was also the founder and first president of the Central Arizona Chapter of AWIS.   Doane is an American Association for the Advancement of Science Fellow.  In 2009, AWIS, in conjunction with AAAS, honored her for her “commitment to the achievement of equity for women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.”  Doane’s service to the scientific community at a national level included being Chair of the Responsibilities Committee of the Society for Developmental Biology, 1971-1974, during which time she produced “Sexisms Satirized,” a humorous book of cartoons highlighting sexism in science; she was also a member of the Congressional Liaison Committee of the Genetics Society of America, 1993-1995.   Doane was a founding council member of the ASU Emeritus College, which was established in 2004 and continued to be particularly active in its mentoring program for young faculty.","Winifred Doane begins her interview with an account of her family and educational background and the formative experiences which shaped her early life.  She talks extensively about her mother’s work and familial attitudes to women’s education and careers, going on to reflect on her undergraduate years at Hunter College and the beginnings of her postgraduate education at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Doane recalls the graduate culture there and how she met her future husband.  Negotiating marriage and motherhood to enable her to achieve her own academic and professional ambitions is a recurrent theme in the interview.   \n\nMost of the interview is devoted to the twenty years she spent at Yale.  Doane recalls various ways in which Yale was a challenging environment for women scientists, and recounts many personal experiences of sexism and discrimination, whilst, at the same time acknowledging the support and mentorship of a number of her male colleagues, like Donald Poulson and Evelyn Hutchinson whom she found supportive and respectful.  She reflects to what extent the ways in which the cultural attitudes of Yale’s scientists towards women in science mirrored attitudes in the scientific world at large.  An account is given of what she encountered at the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health, especially in respect of grant applications she made in the late 1960s and early 1970s. She also recalls how what she regards as the then structural sexism in the science establishment also affected her husband’s career because of the fact he had a working wife.   The issue of tenure at Yale had particular difficulties for women, as she then explains, recounting in detail how they were addressed in the early years of Affirmative Action at Yale. Thus a context is provided for her own tenure experience.   Doane outlines the circumstances of her resignation from Yale and her move to Arizona State University, reflecting on both the losses and gains she experienced in terms of her career by leaving Yale.  Then she explains how her experiences at Yale influenced how she conducted her academic life after she left, and affirms her lasting commitment to mentoring young women scientists.\n\nDoane charts her growing awareness of feminist issues in the late 60s and the ambivalence she found amongst both male and female colleagues towards affirmative action.  She explains how she became involved in the Association of Women in Science (AWIS) and other scientific bodies in the early 1970s, and her commitment to raising awareness of sexism and discrimination through them. These early involvements culminated in the publication of “Sexisms Satirized” in 1976.    Finally, she shares her views on and impressions of the new generation of women scientists’ prospects in academic life, addressing the issue of how women are changing the academy and how it is changing them, in the wider context of how science itself is changing.","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u00266d507f1c-34f2-497d-a4c4-8dc9513cf09a","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20210827-32762-e0cfwa.mpga"]},"duration":12706.71674,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-yalemssa.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/122/264/original/open-uri20210827-32762-e0cfwa.mpga?1630069522","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":12706.71674,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ru_1051_2012-a-038_doane_winifred_aligned_transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Doane 060309 (first edit by FM 1/25/10)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=0.0,0.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So it’s recording now.   What I’m going to do is I’ll just mark the tape about who we are, and where we are, and what we’re doing, and then we can start.  Is that all right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=0.0,11.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11.0,11.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And I’m just going to check it, also.  If you see me look down, it’s because I’m just checking for the levels to make sure that we’re recording your voice well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11.0,19.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s a nice little thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=19.0,19.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e It’s a very neat little thing, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=19.0,24.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=24.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e It’s a --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=25.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Mine is just a battery-run old-fashioned tape recorder.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=25.0,28.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  No, this wasn’t expensive, either.  It was only about $100, maybe $150, it’s a bit cumbersome to use.  That’s the only thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=28.0,40.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, well, mine is very cumbersome to use.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=40.0,42.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  So, today’s the sec -- is it the third of June, or the second?  I think it’s the third.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=42.0,49.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e The third.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=49.0,49.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, it’s the third of June, 2009, and this is Florence Minnis from the Yale Women’s Oral History Project here in Vermont, Richmond, Vermont to interview Professor Winifred Doane for our project.  So thank you very much, Winifred.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=49.0,69.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e You’re very welcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=69.0,69.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You don’t mind if I call you Winifred?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=69.0,71.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, please do.  Everybody does.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=71.0,74.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=74.0,74.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e My nickname is Wink.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=74.0,75.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Wink?  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=75.0,76.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It was Winkie when I was younger. (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=76.0,81.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  I bet you got some teasing about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=81.0,82.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it came along with the name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=82.0,85.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yes.  Well, it’s a nice old-fashioned name.  Just before I switched on the machine, you just started to talk about a symposium that you were involved in recently at Arizona State, which is the institution that you are now an emerita of.   Maybe we could just pick up on that, because you made, I thought, an interesting point.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=85.0,111.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, actually, this was not a symposium; it was a panel discussion, one of many that were held throughout the year, but it also --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=111.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e For the Darwin...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=120.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e For Darwin 200th anniversary -- oh, it was 150th, I guess it was.  Wasn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=122.0,127.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I think so.  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=127.0,130.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- of Origin of Species.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=130.0,131.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=131.0,133.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Anyway, when I first saw the list of proposed speakers, which, by the way, was e-mailed to me by Jane Maienschein, who was one of the early women undergraduates from Yale, who was at ASU.  She is now director of our Biology and Society program at ASU.  Anyway, she sent me this list of proposed speakers, and they were all men.  And I immediately e-mailed back to say, “Where are the women?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=133.0,169.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And this started the ball rolling, and since at the time the chapter of the AWIS -- that’s Association for Women in Science -- I was treasurer of the local chapter, which I had founded, actually, at ASU.   I got a hold of the president, and I said, “Well, AWIS ought to at least have something involved,” so guess who ended up putting the panel together?  (laughs) And I decided this would be a good opportunity to make use of some of the emeritas women -- emerita -- and so I got two of them lined up.  One was from physics, who had left MIT at the height of the storm there and gone to ASU, and had quite a story to tell.  Another was the first Native American woman in California to get a college degree, who never actually got a professorship at ASU, although she’d had one before she came there.  But she was married to the vice president for research.  Right now, she is a professor at Kansas, the University of Kansas so she’s not quite retired, but while at ASU, she was in charge of the American Indian program, so she was a good one to have to represent.  Of course, she’s very active in Hispanic, American Indian program nationally.  I asked Jane Maienschein to be another panelist, and then the chapter wanted a graduate student there, and a couple other faculty women, different departments.  Anyway, the last minute, Jane couldn’t do it, so I had to substitute for her.  (laughs) But it was an interesting program.  It was an hour and a half.  We each gave a little spiel at first, and then we opened for discussion.  And the question raised by the panel was what is the status of women since Darwin?  Or what has been done for women, actually, where have women come since Darwin?  That’s what the title of the panel was.  And the conclusion was “not enough.”  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=169.0,322.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But they’d come somewhere?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=322.0,325.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e They had come some, but not enough.  But compare that to his day, where there was nothing.  Of course, you had to come from the bottom, right?  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=325.0,333.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So there’s still a fair amount of evolution going on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=333.0,337.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, right. That was the whole idea.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=337.0,338.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=338.0,339.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Anyway the consensus sort of was that the women who got on -- of course, it would probably be mothers and whatnot, and getting married came up, and joint appointments and so forth -- but the crux of the matter was, those who were successful, any little chance that came along, they grabbed it, even if it was not equal to what they were, but just having taken that, putting the foot in the door, and that starts them on their way.  And so they do go up the ladder then, many of them.  Some fall by the wayside, but at least if you don’t recognize the opportunity when it arises, you never go on.  You stay in the old hole you were in before.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=339.0,389.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And then maybe become like the dodo?  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=389.0,391.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  Yes, exactly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=391.0,393.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=393.0,394.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, right.  And so when I left Yale for ASU that was sort of the way I felt.  ASU had been a college.  It started out as a teachers’ college and then a regular liberal arts college, and then a few years before I -- well, maybe ten years or more -- before I went there in 1977, it had become a university.  In most states in the United States, when you say like Arizona State or Michigan State, it implies it’s the agricultural university, but that’s just the opposite in Arizona.  The University of Arizona is the ag college campus but it’s also traditionally everything else, too.  ASU is a little more on the technical side, but not in agriculture.  (laughs) In fact, it’s all out of agriculture now, except for some very minor roles hooked up with U of A.   Anyway, at that particular moment in time, the state legislature was being very generous to educators in the state, which they are definitely not prone to be, and they wanted to build up ASU because Phoenix was starting to grow.  And I thought this would be a good opportunity to get in on the ground floor and see what I could do.  So that was the foot (laughs) up that I took.  I knew I was leaving an environment that was really good for my research and going into one that was just almost zero in terms of environment for the type of research I was in, I knew would be a handicap -- and it was.  I went to hire my first technician there, and there was no one qualified, no one at all, (laughs) in the whole area.  I managed to get the wife of one of the professors in the psychology department, who had done a little bit of histochemistry, you know, making slides and staining the different enzymes and stuff.  She was the closest I could come, but she had no biochemical background, per se.  The department was still arguing about whether they should ever hire a biochemist; that’s how far behind they were.  There was only one person there, (laughs) Eliot Ohlstein (sp?), who was trained in what was molecular genetics then.  Of course, that’s before they started cloning genes, or just on the borderline of cloning genes for proteins and things.   Much of the early work on RNA genes was done at Yale and being done at Yale when I left, but the major protein genes were not.  The AMY gene for amylenes, alpha-amylase, was the second protein gene to be cloned for Drosophila, the fruit fly, and that was in my lab at ASU, not at Yale.  So I did get rolling and I did continue to be funded, but I was pretty busy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=394.0,593.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it’s very interesting, the point you make about being opportunistic.   It can make for a \tstrange looking career trajectory, but often, it pays dividends later on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=593.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=608.0,608.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Especially if you’re lucky.  (phone rings) I’ll just pause it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=608.0,619.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"(Break in recording)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=619.0,619.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e All right, we’ve switched the machine back on again.  We were just talking about taking opportunities as they arise, and this is one way to progress in the profession.  So I’d like to take you right back to beginning, to the first opportunity, which was being born into the family that you were born into.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=619.0,641.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=641.0,641.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And it would be lovely, Winifred, if you could give me a little bit of a picture of your family background and the sort of family you were born into, your relationship with your parents, with your mother and your father, and the other thing is the attitudes and expectations of family and your social milieu about the education of women. So if you’d like to give me a little sense of that that would be terrific.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=641.0,674.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e OK.  I should start out by saying both my parents were educators.  My father, a professor of architecture, and my mother was a special teacher during the Great Depression of the thirties, when I was a little kid.  She had to go back to teaching because of my father having a severe mastoid operation, and it almost killed him.  He was at Columbia University at the time as a young assistant professor, but it took him a couple years to recover from the operation, and they just couldn’t afford -- you know, this was the Depression, bad enough, so my mother had to go back to teaching. Got herself a master’s degree and went on in a special program called a Health Improvement Program.  It was a new experimental program in the city of New York to work with children who had fallen behind in grade level because of medical reasons, anything from heart problems to tuberculosis, you name it.  At first, she started out in the junior high level in the slums of Harlem.  She had multi-grades, all three middle school or junior high grades, in her class.  And she was very successful at it, because she had a way of relating to young people that was very good.  She was the kind of an educator who taught the student how to educate him- or herself.  And that’s the way she operated.  That’s how she could learn all these different levels of schooling at the same time, sort of like the old-fashioned schoolhouse.   She then moved down to the Lower East Side slums, to a junior high school down there, and, oh, by the way, the one that she first went to down in Manhattan was where they were doing experimental work with tuberculosis, exposing the patients to cold air, like at Saranac Lake over here in New York [State], where they put them out to breathe the cold air.  She said all of her students had what they called Eskimo suits that they’d bundle them up in, and they’d lay out cots in the room, and twice a day, morning and afternoon, they’d have to lay out -- they opened all the windows in the room so it was like outside.  These are the sorts of things that they were doing, and of course, she got involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=674.0,843.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In fact, her master’s degree was in nutrition.  She became quite an expert in nutrition, and she had free samples of the first multivitamins that were ever made.  They were little pills.  I can remember.  We were not allowed to eat candy.  In fact, I grew up on City Island, which is a mile and a half long, and I think a couple blocks wide, off the upper northeast corner of the Bronx.  I loved candy.  (laughs) I was a skinny little kid.  There were two of us, and we were skinniest in the class, and I was one of them.  And (laughs) my mother thought that every young child should be pleasingly plump otherwise they weren’t healthy, you know.  (laughs) So I’d sneak and save up all my little pennies and stuff and go and buy candy at the local candy store on the corner of the street where we’d go to school. \tAnd so she went round to every candy store on the island and told them they were not to sell candy to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=843.0,909.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=909.0,910.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e (laughs) But these vitamin pills she got were sugar-coated, and it was the coating of the sugar that contained the vitamins, and then on top of that was chocolate, which I loved -- that was my favorite.  So she had these stashed away, and we’d only get one a day.  (laughs) I found out the stash, and I’d sneak in.  But, you know, she never really objected to me taking them because they were vitamins.  (laughs) It was kind of funny.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=910.0,946.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That’s the closest to anything scientific in my background.  Everybody else in the background were -- well, there are a lot of ministers.  Her father was a Presbyterian minister.  Her sister Myra married a minister.   My father’s ancestors had two ministers, in the Gleason [sp?] side of the family, both Yale graduates.  In the card catalog at Yale, they had quite a listing of their publications, as a matter of fact.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=946.0,984.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"His own father was a writer.  He supported the family with his writing.  He wrote novels, a prolific writer.  He was written up in...I don’t know.  He started out in the New York Herald as a newspaper person, then went on to write independently.  But he was written up as the most prolific writer of his time, in terms of stories and journal articles and books and stuff.  But he also wrote a very well-known series called The Twilight Animals series, which I read as a child, and I just loved those books.   His most famous novel was -- the only critique of it was that he was the first to introduce the idea into a novel that you could use hypnosis to get somebody to do something that they didn’t want to do, and nobody believed it was possible then, and so that was the big critique of the novel.  But it was a very popular novel, just the same, you know.  It was called The Mysterious Burglar.  (laughs) Anyway, his name was George Elthelbert Walsh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=984.0,1056.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he was the one, I was telling you earlier, had nothing to do with thinking about ancestry, who said, “You are who you are, and don’t rely on your ancestry.”  I think it was partly because the woman he married, my grandmother, came from descent of the early Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam, New York, and she also had the Gleason side of the family, which went way back.  I haven’t done a genealogy of them, but my sister Myra got involved with that for a while.  I haven’t followed it up.  But the Vandervoorts (sp?), which was my father’s middle name, Harold Vandervoort Walsh, went back to Peter Vandervoort I, who married into the Rafael (sp?) family, and Melissa Rafael married Peter Vandervoort.  Now, the Vandervoorts at that time owned the homestead that became the site of the Brooklyn Navy Yard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1056.0,1121.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1121.0,1122.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But she lived up the Hudson in one of the little settlements north of Poughkeepsie.  And I guess because of the Indians, they had to move back down to the city.  But her older sister, I’ve forgotten what her first name is, but she’s what’s known as the daughter of the state of New York.  She was the first person of European descent who’d been born in what are now the boundaries of the state of New York.  (laughs) I didn’t find this out until after my father was long since dead, but it’s interesting how these things come together.  So that was his side of the family, my grandmother on that side, anyway.  She was not a very healthy person.  She had type 1 diabetes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1122.0,1174.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And on my mother’s side, her father, I said, was a Presbyterian minister, and she was born in Philadelphia but moved away at the age of three and grew up in the Midwest.  Her mother, who she dearly loved -- she was the eighth child, and in that family, the Lauks (sp?) family, ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1174.0,1205.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"all of the children died at birth or soon after birth except an older brother, who died when he was 18 or 19 years old -- I think 19 -- and then her sister Myra, who was much older than she was.  But when her mother died, her father remarried.  And it was sort of like a Cinderella story, threw her out of the house and sent her to New York to live with her sister, who was by that time married to this minister.  I’ve forgotten the name of the church, but I ran across it the other day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1205.0,1243.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Anyway, they were literally as poor as church mouse -- mice -- (laughs) living in New York, in the worst area.  And my mother had to help support herself, and she did it by teaching piano lessons for 25 cents a lesson to the poor people in the slums where she was growing up.  She wanted to go on in music because she had real musical talent, and,  she got into Hunter College -- High School, Hunter High and then went on to Hunter College, and literally put herself through college -- of course, it didn’t cost anything in those days --  by teaching piano and a little singing, too.  She did singing lessons at Hunter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1243.0,1296.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But her sister’s husband would not let her major in music.  He thought that was a waste of one’s talents, and so he insisted that she major in foreign languages, in German, especially, and a French minor.  And she hated it, absolutely hated it, and (laughs) never ever made use of it again, except later on in life, when she was a teacher, some of it came back, you know, so she could help her students in learning a new language.  So she graduated in 1910 from Hunter College, and that was the first graduating class under the name of Hunter College.  Up till then, it had been the Normal School, a teachers’ training school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1296.0,1344.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And she went out and taught, and her name was Helen Harper Lauks.  They used to, in those days, back in the late 1880s -- she was born in 1888 and she was a little older than my dad; he was born in 1892 -- Harper was the name of another minister that was a good friend of her father’s, and so they would, you know, pick up the name of a good friend or something like that, so that’s where Harper came from, no family connection.  But Lauks turns out to be an old family name in the East here.  Pennsylvania Dutch, that’s German, basically, well, it’s the low country.  It’s not really German or French, but in between.  It’s that Luxembourg area.  And so she grew up, her later teens, in New York City.  And the first school she taught at in New York, she met another Helen, Helen Walsh, who was my father’s sister.  Oh, wait a minute.  I’m sorry.  In between -- yeah, that’s right, the First World War came on and she ended up down in Washington, DC, and she was a file clerk, keeping track of all the deaths due to the pandemic of the Spanish flu.  She’d already met my father through his sister, and he was moved to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds.  He was making use of the engineering -- he had the equivalent of an engineering degree with his Bachelor of Architecture -- and so they were making use of his understanding of engineering there.  So his, in a way, was just as dangerous a (laughs) occupation as if you were on the front lines.  But in 1918, February 15, they eloped and got married.   The war didn’t end until November -- that’s when the armistice was signed -- but the actual war wasn’t over until the final year.  So they were married in 1918, and they moved back the New York area, where they stayed for the rest of their lives, except for coming up to Vermont in later retirement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1344.0,1501.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But there were no scientists in my family at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1501.0,1505.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Everybody was either a writer or a musician, an artist, sculptor, (laughs) things like that, or...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1505.0,1512.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But it was obvious, though, that your family regarded it as important that women had an education?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1512.0,1519.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, definitely.  In fact, I can remember my mother saying to me when I was a young teenager, she said, “Well, anybody can get married.  What are you going to do?”  (laughter) So, yeah, it was just assumed you’d get your college degree.  It was just --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1519.0,1537.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And that you would work?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1537.0,1540.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  Have a career that was your career, not just a shopkeeper or something like that.  And so my oldest sister since she was the firstborn, of course, my mother doted all her music instincts on her, and my dad, too, was very artistic and liked music.  He used to sing in a choir when he was young, played [all kinds of music?].  And he used to play the mandolin and the banjo.  In fact, I found his old mandolin upstairs the other day.  And he used to take a canoe out with my mom on the Potomac and play to her on the mandolin.  (laughter) So the music and the arts, there was a kind of the two coming together when they got married.  My mom always used to say -- and she was anything but scientific herself, but she would always say -- when a problem would arise, she’d always say, “Well, now, let’s do this scientifically.”  She didn’t know what she was talking about. (laughs) So science was in my vocabulary, anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1540.0,1604.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you develop an interest in science early on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1604.0,1607.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it wasn’t until after my grandfather -- because, see, my mother had these jobs teaching downtown, and then my grandfather came to live with us when my grandmother died.  He lived with us during the winter months, and in the summer months, he’d live with my Aunt Helen up in Massachusetts, on the farm, where she lived after she got married.   He died, and so there was no one to be at home when I came home from school in the afternoon.  So she was teaching way downtown on Twelfth Street, between Avenue A and First Avenue in New York.  I don’t know if you know where that is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1607.0,1654.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I do.  Yes, I do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1654.0,1655.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, there was a school there.  It was Bay Junior High.  And she had this special program, her little corner, so her students didn’t mix with the others.  They were the special health problems students.  She was really enamored of the principal there.  She thought she was doing such a wonderful job, and she was.  And she gave my mother free rein to do what she could with these kids, and she was having all kinds of successes.   So anyway, she figured, well, the only thing she could do was to take me with her.  So she got me into the school down there, and we’d go down, take the bus from City Island to the end of the subway line and take the subway line all the way down, having to change trains in between, down to Fourteenth Street, and then take a little bus over to Twelfth and Avenue A.   It took me an hour and a half to get to school every day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1655.0,1718.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I started in the spring semester of my first year in junior high, and it was such a contrast to the school I’d been going to on City Island.  I mean, it was the first real challenge I had, because, you know, it was all A’s [before].  I didn’t even try.  No problem on City Island.  I got down there, and they didn’t believe anybody was worthy of an A.  You were too young to achieve an A.  If you got a B, (laughs) that was the equivalent of an A.  So anyway, it was the first real challenge I had.  And I did end up getting quite a few A’s, which was one of the things which was nice.  I ended up being president of the student class down there, too, after being the vice president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1718.0,1765.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I met my first real science teacher -- her name was Miss Early.  And she had me do a science project, and I can remember what it was.  I was very good with my hands.  My bedroom was not filled with dolls; I had a workbench in there with tools.  (laughter) When my parents weren’t around, I’d take apart clocks and put them back together, you know, and do things like that.  I was always making something.  I didn’t like to read; I liked to be doing things.  And I made all my own clothes and so forth and so on, cook the meals, and clean the house, all these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1765.0,1808.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But she really inspired me because I put together, you know, this (model?), pretty simple.  I worked out a deal so I had the sun in the center, was a flashlight, and then I had worked out so the planets would be going around it, and all the proper distances and so forth.  And she was very, very impressed.  I guess she encouraged me.  That’s when I decided I wanted to be a scientist.  In that class in the fall of that year.  Yeah, that’s when I first got interested in science, and it stayed with me forever after.  Then when I got to high school, that was on the west side of the Bronx, Walton High School, which is very good.  It was sort of the sister school to the Bronx High School of Science until that went coed.  These were all-girls schools, both the junior high and the high, as well as Hunter, when I first started there.   Walton had a wonderful biology teacher, and he really took me under his wing.  And I would describe things to him, and draw them on the blackboard, that I had observed in nature, like reproduction of mosses and stuff like that.  And he was very impressed.  In fact, he had me illustrate some articles he was writing for the Book of Knowledge, (laughs) and which I did, which was kind of fun as a high school student.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1808.0,1899.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I was still very much involved with extra-curricular activities.  My parents insisted we had academic degrees, but then we had to take all kinds of lessons.  We never wasted a minute.  That’s how you keep kids out of trouble.  (laughs) So when I was in high school -- oh, I had a cousin -- when my Aunt Myra died, my cousin Price, who was her only son, came to live with us, and he was a young man at the time.  He was like an older brother to us.  Eventually, he married and left.  But he played the clarinet.  He was very deaf, but he found of all the musical instruments, the clarinet, because the vibration in the lip he could hear it.  And he ended up in the New York Philharmonic Orchestra as the first clarinetist, which is kind of amazing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1899.0,1952.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, it is amazing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1952.0,1953.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e He’d never been exposed to music till he came into our house.  And my mother was wonderful.  She worked out a whole scheme for training us how to play the piano.  I was two and a half when I first started playing the piano.  She developed this color-coding thing for the notes.  And he picked it up just like that.  But he couldn’t hear the piano very well, so he went through a number of different instruments and came up with the clarinet.  So, of course, when I got into my teenage years, I played the clarinet some, not very much, before he died [left?].  But that was fun.  But in the meantime, I’d taken piano lessons for 17 years, and then I went into voice lessons.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1953.0,1995.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh, in fact, between high school and college, I was ahead in my class, so I took off six months to see, well, do I really want to go into science or not.  I knew I did, but just to make my parents happy, I said, OK, I’m going to do nothing but arts and music for these six months.  And I was taking a singing lesson every day downtown right across the street from Carnegie Hall, and from the well-known singers -- instructor.  And I was still taking piano lessons, and my piano teacher by that time was living in Greenwich Village, so all these are long trips, you know, from City Island.  And then I got hooked up with the Art Students League because at that time, my dad was over at City College.  In fact, he was one of the founding members of the school of architecture there.  And they didn’t have one when he went back to teaching, and Columbia was out of the picture by then.  They didn’t pay enough.  In those days, depending on the professors -- at Yale, too -- either they came in with their own wealth, or they married a wealthy woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=1995.0,2070.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, the dollar-a-year men, I think they called them at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2070.0,2072.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, you’re right.  My mom of course, (laughs) was the poor church mouse.  She had nothing to offer about that.  So they couldn’t support three kids on that kind of money, so he went over to the City College, which paid much better.  Anyway, one of his friends there, Louis Walshenott (sp?) was a very, very well-known artist, but teaching in my father’s department, not art, but in the architectural part, in design.  He was well-known.  He had written several books on design.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2072.0,2108.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he’d gotten into design through jewelry-making.  So we got hooked up with, let’s see, there was the Art Student League in New York, and then there was the Craft Student League.  And so I was taking lessons in jewelry design and jewelry-making down there during this period, and I learned how to make my own jewelry, and I did my own designing.  And through college, I would make things for people and sell all the jewelry and give me a lot of little extra money on the side.  So I kept up the crafts and the arts on the side, and the music, oh, all the time, singing in choirs, occasionally as a soloist, that kind of thing.  But my main focus was always on science.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2108.0,2154.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In high school, I had to make up my mind whether I wanted to go into biology, chemistry, and physics, because I liked them all.  And I finally decided I wanted to go into biology.  So when I went to Hunter College -- oh, my sister Jean went to Barnard, and I could see what a strain that put on the family budget, and I said, well, why should I waste my parents’ money that way when Hunter had the same equivalent academic rating as Barnard, and I could live at home.  So I went to Hunter, and my mother was a Hunter graduate, and my sister Myra, who had gotten married, dropped out, but then went back and finished her degree at Hunter, too.  She went into art and music and teaching.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2154.0,2204.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, for eight dollars a semester, I got a college education.  That included all the books.  You didn’t have to buy your books.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2204.0,2213.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Quite different from today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2213.0,2214.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e How different is right. And not only that, but because the books were free, you could have not one textbook for a course, you might have two or three, so you get a different flavor from each.  So it was a wonderful education, but when I first started, in fact all the way through practically, I said, “Well, I’m going into scientific illustrating,” so I could fit into my family.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2214.0,2239.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e All right.  So yes, so yes.  Otherwise, you were the cuckoo in the nest?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2239.0,2243.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.  So I took a double major.  I took a major in zoology, and then I took an equivalent major in botany, but then I took a minor in art, and in that, I also studied photography, see, so I could be an illustrator.  I guess you would say I excelled in science, because when I graduated, I received all of the science awards, the general science award for my class -- they were big classes, over 1,000.  I think it was 1,200-something, forgotten the number.  I received the biology award and, to my utter surprise, they gave me a scholarship to the Woods Hole Marine Biological Laboratory for the summer.  They never asked me if I would go, they just assumed I was going on to graduate school.  My parents had no notion that to be a scientist, you really had to go to graduate school.  It never entered their mind.  In my last year, all my teachers in biology at Hunter said, “Well, what graduate school are you going to?”  And at first, I said, “Why do I have to go to graduate school?”  But in the meantime, I knew I didn’t want to be a grade school teacher.  I knew I didn’t have the temperament for it, the patience for it.    I was telling you, you know, how I never played with dolls.  I never was around babies, little kids much, and they just didn’t interest me much -- until I had my own, and that was different.  (laughter) And I was fascinated by the change day by day.  Let’s see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2243.0,2357.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Because Hunter was a female college, were women encouraged to do science?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2357.0,2368.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, absolutely.  Remember, this was a training school for teachers, originally.  But as the World War ended, and then when the vets came back, Hunter went coed, so in my last year, I guess, Hunter was coed, but up till then, it was all women.  My professors there, especially -- I had one real mentor in zoology, Edith B. Chase was her name, and she had gotten her Ph.D. at Chicago, and she recommended that I not go to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2368.0,2409.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"graduate school in a big city, even though she (inaudible).  I wanted to go on in invertebrate zoology, worms and snails and things like that, protozoa and so forth.  That’s what really interested me, because I used to study these things in the water around City Island and all that kind of stuff.   But she said I should go to a big, open college campus, because I’d been going to the city schools.  I needed to get out, away from the city, and into a big campus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2409.0,2443.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So she recommended either Michigan -- University of Michigan -- or University of Wisconsin, or Chicago.  Chicago was great in that area, but again, it was in a big city.  So I applied to all three, and they told me I should apply for an assistantship, teaching assistantship, which I did.  They told me to do that.  Well, the first one to respond was Wisconsin.  They offered me a TA right off.  I didn’t hear from the others for a while, and I got nervous, said, “Well, maybe I won’t get one.”  So I accepted the one at Wisconsin.  Lo and behold, I got it from both the other schools, too.  That’s how I ended up going to Wisconsin.  And I was never sorry I did.  In fact, since my husband died, I have set up a memorial fund in his name, to help support[it], bringing in upstanding entomologists from around the country and the world,  to come and give lectures and meet with the students and have seminars and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2443.0,2517.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What did you find was so good about Wisconsin?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2517.0,2522.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, first of all, the atmosphere was so different.  And I have to say that my mother, for all her wonderful traits, was a very difficult woman to live with.   She was overbearingly loving one minute and scolding you the next.  If I’d fall down and scratch myself, I’d get scolded for having fallen down and scratched myself, you know, not being sympathetic that it hurt.  (laughs) That kind of thing.  And we all felt, thank God she was working while we were growing up, because she was out of the house.  (laughter) And she never did anything much about housekeeping.  She had the three girls.  My older sister had skipped two whole years going through the little school on City Island, so she graduated at the age of 15 from   Horace Mann High School, which was one of the better schools -- and very expensive, I might add.  But she got scholarships and all, and then she went on to Barnard.  So she got out of the coop early.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2522.0,2600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That left Myra and me, and we had the brunt of having to clean the house every week, do all the laundry.  In those days, we had one of these old mangles, electric mangles, where you’d iron the sheets and the pillowcases, and my father’s white shirts that we had to starch and iron with this, you know, and everything like that.  We didn’t dine out and we cooked the meals every other night.  Whoever cooked the meal didn’t have to do the dishes and vice versa.  We did that all the way through.  But my mother, she’d stand at the top of the stairs, and here we knew what we were doing -- and she couldn’t cook worth a darn.  She was terrible.  She knew how to make chicken -- that was good -- but she didn’t understand.  In fact, she considered going out to restaurant gluttony, and that’s one of the cardinal sins, you know.  So she would be giving us direction from the second floor down the stairwell, what we should do for cooking supper.  And we’d look at each other, “Yeah, yeah, Mom.  Yeah, yeah,” and then go ahead and do it our own way.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2600.0,2670.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And yet she was expecting you also to be successful academically, so you could have a career?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2670.0,2674.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it didn’t bother me, because I loved school.  I always loved school.  My sister Myra, though, was a rebellious type.  And she was the artist in the family, with all the artistic temperament to go with it.  And sure, she was musical, too, but she eventually did go into art.  She married a young fellow who was going into the Episcopal ministry and she quit college in her","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2674.0,2710.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"senior year to put him through seminary, and that didn’t end up happily, unfortunately.  And she was the one of the three of us who wanted to be a devoted housewife with children, and she was the one who ended up with no husband and no children.  That’s the way it goes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2710.0,2727.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Life’s ironies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2727.0,2728.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  So anyway --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2728.0,2731.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So you went off to Wisconsin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2731.0,2732.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I went off to Wisconsin, and, you know, I can still remember that first night I got there.  It was the first night I remembered having a full night’s sleep, and I didn’t even want to get up in the morning; I just wanted to sleep and sleep.  It was just like a heavy cloak had been taken off my shoulders, and I was free.  Oh, I just loved it there.  Everybody was so friendly, and I had wonderful friends that I met.  And I loved the classes.   That was my first introduction to the fruit fly.   I had started out as a TA the first year, but then I got one of those [Wharf?] research assistantships for the next two years.   I finished my master’s the second year there.  They were very stringent.  You not only had to do the coursework, you had to take a comprehensive exam and then do a research thesis, publish a good research thesis besides.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2732.0,2796.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What was the makeup of your graduate class?  Were there a lot of women?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2796.0,2801.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.  OK, that was the other thing.  (laughs) On City Island, you know, I knew all the kids.  It was a small island, and there was nobody there I was interested in, and the chances of meeting anybody in New York of the other sex were pretty slim.  But I got out there, and the ratio of men to women was 7:1.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2801.0,2823.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Seven men to one woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2823.0,2825.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2825.0,2825.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2825.0,2825.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, and I have to tell you how I met my husband.  The very first day, I went to get on the registration line.  I’d never been on a big campus before; I didn’t know what I was doing.  And I saw this long line, and I said, “Well, that must be for registration.”  And so I went on it.  And after staying there for a little bit, I wasn’t sure I was doing the right thing.  So I turned around.  There was a great big tall fellow behind me, and I asked him, “Is this the line for registration?”  He said, “Yeah.”  And it turned out he was from New York, and he was in the law school.  And the fellow next to him -- they were both pretty handsome guys -- but the fellow next to him was 5’11”, I guess this other guy was over six feet.  That night, after registration, I went back to my dorm -- they had rooms for graduate students.  It was the old governor’s mansion.  That’s where we had our wedding reception, by the way.  I got a phone call.  I said, “What on earth?”  And it turns out Chuck Doane, while I was talking to his roommate, was looking over my shoulder, and he copied down my telephone number.  (laughter) And that’s how I met him. So we went out to a movie and, started dating, but not steady at first, because there were lots other guys who would take me [out]. I had a rule.  I never went out during the week, of course.  I would study.  But I could go out Friday night and Saturday night.  And I couldn’t go to the movies on Sunday because my mother never let us go to a movie on Sunday.  That was bad.  (laughs) I gradually got over that. But, gosh, I’d go out on two dates.  In fact, one time, I went out on three dates one Saturday -- one for the afternoon, too, and the evening after that.  So there were lots of men around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2825.0,2942.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So there were opportunities of another sort there at Wisconsin?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2942.0,2944.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Right, yeah.  So I had a lot of fun.  But mostly, I had fun in the classes.  I just loved the classes, and I met some really good friends there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2944.0,2952.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Were you having, something I should have asked you, actually, about Hunter.  Were you taught mostly by women at Hunter?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2952.0,2959.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, they were all women, except the chair of the biology was a man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2959.0,2963.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2963.0,2964.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Clone (sp?) was his name -- who was married to a Doane.  I didn’t know it then.  Many years later, after I was married, I found that out.  He wrote to me and said his wife was a Doane.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2964.0,2975.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And then at Wisconsin, were most of the faculty male?  Or was it mixed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2975.0,2983.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e They were mostly male.  There was woman on the faculty there when I was there.  She was pretty old, but she was there the whole time I was there.   But I have to say, Chuck had just finished up his master’s my first year there, and then he was getting his Ph.D. on the ag side of campus in entomology.  And so he finished his degree in ’53, and I had just begun working on my Ph.D. there.  I had no intention to go for the Ph.D.  Well, I’ll go get a master’s and see what happens.  And of course, once you get in graduate school, yeah, well, you’re going out for the Ph.D., of course? You know, that sort of attitude.  I was sort of swept along (laughs) by what people told me I should be doing, because nobody at home knew what to tell me to do.  I had just started the Ph.D. program there and Chuck proposed to me.   He was determined he wasn’t getting married until he finished his Ph.D.  So he finished everything except his final presentation when he finally proposed to me.  And, wow, that was like two weeks before he was to take a job with Shell Chemical and leave for Denver.  And so we had to quick put together a wedding, and, of course, I made my wedding dress and the dresses for my bridesmaid and my maid of honor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=2983.0,3087.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was there no discussion about what you were going to do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3087.0,3092.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: Well, yes.  When he proposed to me, he said he did not believe in long-distance marriages, and if I was going to marry him, there were two things -- three things -- I had to consider:  first, that either I went with him or it was over, which I was hoping that I wouldn’t have to do, because I thought this was really it, and it was.   The second was that he was Canadian, but he had a green card, so he was eligible for the draft.  The Korean War was on.  And he felt very guilty, because when he was young and the Second World War was on, he could not go into the Armed Services because his father had taken on a job for the government that meant he had to leave the farm.  And Chuck was only 16 years old and was left with the farm to run all by himself, with his mother and his five siblings.  And that’s a lot to put on a 16-year-old kid, and it wasn’t until the war was over -- the last year before he finally did join the Canadian Navy.  It’s a good thing he didn’t have to go into it.  He went out on one training cruise and was so seasick he thought he was going to die.  (laughs) But then the war ended, see.  So he always felt guilty because he lost many friends from college in the war.  So, well, part of the arrangement was that if he got called up to go to Korea, I was not to say a word; he would go, no questions asked.  And what’s the other one?  Oh, the other one was I stipulated that, yes, but if you settle down someplace and the opportunity arose, I would go on and get my degree.  Fine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3092.0,3208.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we got married, and the day after he gave his thesis defense, we got married, literally, in the church on campus, the Presbyterian Church on campus.   His family were Presbyterians, although I’d grown up Anglican -- Anglican in your country, but Episcopalian.  My dad had been an Episcopalian, and the nearest church, up on Pilot Street on the corner was Episcopalian, so that’s where we went.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3208.0,3241.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we went to Denver, where he went through a training program.  He was into development of pesticides for control of insects in agriculture.  And the salary they offered him was higher than any of the professors in his department, but it was a business, a commercial outfit, of course.  So they trained him in Denver, and for reasons I won’t go into, then his first assignment was Jackson, Mississippi.  We thought, of all places in the world we did not want to go it was the Deep South.  And of course, that’s where we ended up.  So I got down there, and there was absolutely nothing for me to do.  He would go out for two weeks at a time.  He had a huge territory, all over Louisiana, Mississippi, part of Arkansas, and even over into Alabama somewhat.  And in the meantime, he was missing doing research.  He really was a researcher.  So my refrigerator you had to see to believe.  All kinds of insect specimens were stored in it.  He’d come home finally on a weekend, and that’s what he would want to do -- play around with his insects.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3241.0,3323.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I finally decided I just couldn’t sit around any longer, so I went over to the nearest college, which is Millsaps College.  In the South, it had a very good name as a liberal arts college, one of the best.  And it happened now another opportunity opened up.  There were only two biologists teaching biology, all the courses, different courses, and one of them had just had a stroke, the older man.  And they just happened to be looking for someone, and I showed up, and so I got a teaching job, and so with my master’s degree, I was an assistant professor down there.  Well, I taught -- oh, my goodness!  I started out teaching a full-year course in zoology.  I taught again over the summer, the same.  I taught histology.   I taught   comparative anatomy, and I had to glue together all, sort out all this jumble of bones and stuff before I could even do all these labs with them that I had to run.   I taught an advanced human anatomy course for pre-meds.  And a year-round botany course, too.  So, (laughs) I had to learn all the plant life down there before I could do the botany part.  So Chuck and I, when we were home, we’d go out and look around at different trees and identify them, that sort of thing.  But I worked so hard, and it was a good thing he wasn’t around, because I just was up all night, practically every night --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3323.0,3427.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you enjoy teaching?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3427.0,3428.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I did like it.  I liked it very much.    I had only gotten a smidgen of a taste of it as a TA at Wisconsin, but this really gave me an idea, then.  And the students liked me, and I liked them, and it was a lot of fun.  We had some interesting episodes, but I won’t go into it.  It was just about the time when the Supreme Court ruling went through to eliminate separate-but-equal schooling. And we were down there at a very critical time in history of the civil rights movement, ’53 through, ’53 to --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3428.0,3462.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Fifty-five or something?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3462.0,3463.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- ’55.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3463.0,3463.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3463.0,3465.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Five.  Well, we were there two and a half years.  Yeah, till the end of ’55.    I lost 40 pounds.  I had never been so thin in my life, except as a little kid.  And (laughs) it was because I was working so hard.\tThey didn’t have air conditioning in the rooms in the summer.  Whew!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3465.0,3494.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So exhausting as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3494.0,3496.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  It was pretty hot.  But you get acclimated to the heat.  Anyway, came the summer of ’56, and Chuck got moved to St. Louis.  Every time we got moved, it meant a step up his ladder in the company, and they --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3496.0,3511.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And a problem for you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3511.0,3513.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I was just filling in time.  I didn’t have my Ph.D. then.  So they moved us to St. Louis next, and started all over again.  At that time, they had a real teacher shortage throughout the country, but especially in the St. Louis area, and they had big advertisements in the papers.  You know, “We need teachers.  Even if you only have two years in college, we can work around it by signing you up for teacher ed” and that kind of thing.  So I applied, and (laughs) the result was -- I just couldn’t fathom.  I was not eligible for their teaching program because I was overly qualified, but I should sign on to teaching students to --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3513.0,3568.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Teaching the teachers?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3568.0,3569.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  And I thought, “That doesn’t make sense to me.”  So I then went over to Washington University, which is in St. Louis and even then, it was small but choice.  I went over there.  They had very few graduate students in biology because they were so small at the time, but even in the middle of the year, they said, yeah, they’d give me a teaching assistantship.  And so I was all set to go there and start doing work on my Ph.D. and Chuck comes home and says, “Pack your bags, we’re going to Connecticut!” because he couldn’t stand not doing research anymore --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3569.0,3615.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3615.0,3615.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- and they were going to move him to New York next, and the thought of moving to a big city just was so contrary to what he wanted.  So he started looking around, and he had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3615.0,3626.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you not protest?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3626.0,3628.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, oh, OK, and this is a serendipity.  When I was at Wisconsin, I did my master’s thesis on Drosophila, on   embryonic lethals how they affected development.  That was an area of biology that was barely even known in those days -- beginnings of developmental biology, really.  Don Poulson at Yale was the father of all this.  He had just gotten it started, really, off the ground in the forties when he went there from Caltech.  When I was doing my master’s, of course, they had this book on the biology of Drosophila -- it came out in 1950, the year I went to Wisconsin.  And I read that thing cover-to-cover, and I practically had it memorized, and he had a chapter in there.  And the chapter before, written by someone else, he basically wrote most of that, too, I later learned.   He was at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3628.0,3702.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"When Chuck said we’re moving to Connecticut, it was because that’s where he ended up wanting to go, because at that time, the Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station was one of the tops in the country.  In fact, it was the original one set up by a Yale professor back in the 1800s and brought the whole concept to this country --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3702.0,3725.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Neat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3725.0,3725.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- of government-financed agricultural research.  That’s where hybrid corn was developed.  And it was a mile up the road from Yale, on Prospect Street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3725.0,3737.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3737.0,3737.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It’s still there.  I don’t know if you know it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3737.0,3738.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I know it.  In fact, I walked past it the other day; I thought that must be the same place that Chuck had been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3738.0,3743.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, yeah.  When I got that scholarship to the Marine Biological Laboratory the year I graduated from Hunter in 1950, I took the invertebrate course at Woods Hole because that’s what I was interested in, and one of my professors was a Yale professor by the name of Talbot Waterman.  I had an older roommate with me.  She somehow rigged it so -- oh, and I met one of the fellows in the class, that we started going out together, and she started going out with Talbot, and we’d go out on double dates together.  So, anyway, to make a long story short, when Chuck said we’d go to Connecticut, I said, “I wonder if Talbot remembers me.”  So I wrote to him very formally, and I said, “I don’t know if you remember me.  I was in your class (inaudible), Winifred Doane.”  He writes back, “Hi, Winkie!  How are you?”  (laughter) Yes, he remembered me.  And I’m sure I never would have gotten -- and this was the end of the spring semester ’56 -- all the assistantships had long since gone out, and they gave me one for Yale, and that’s how I got started at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3743.0,3820.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was the old boy network, wasn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3820.0,3822.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Exactly, only this time, it worked for me.  Well, I’ll tell you a funny story, because when I finished my Ph.D. four years later at Yale --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3822.0,3836.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you sign up for Ph.D. right away?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3836.0,3840.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes.  Oh, yes.  Yeah, because I had a master’s and they wouldn’t let -- oh, Yale frowned on a master’s.  They didn’t consider that anything; that was just part of your Ph.D. training.  But, on the other hand, if you didn’t have a degree from Yale, you couldn’t teach at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3840.0,3856.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, I know that.  My husband had to have an MA conferred when he arrived.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3856.0,3861.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  My advisor had one slipped under his door so that he could become a professor.  (laughter) So stupid.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3861.0,3872.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So what was your funny story you were going -- I interrupted you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3872.0,3875.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was funny, and it was disheartening at the same time, and it could never happen today.  I was giving my defense, and I had a big crowd there.  In fact, there was a visitor from England, from Cambridge -- Maynard Smith [John Maynard Smith, geneticist], do you know that name?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3875.0,3892.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, Cambridge.  Yes, Cambridge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3892.0,3894.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. So he was visiting Yale at the time, and I went out to lunch with him at the college where my former advisor belonged.  And he came to my thesis defense, and I was really flattered to think that he would come, you know.  And the room was packed.  Anyway,\tI got through about half the talk when I go to the next slide, and up comes a picture of me in a two-piece bathing suit with Talbot Waterman.  I had stepped on a spine or something.  We had been on a field trip, and he was with a pair of tweezers, pulling it out.  I could have died.  And my husband was furious.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3894.0,3937.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So somebody had slipped it in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3937.0,3940.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I think Talbot did, and he never would admit it.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3940.0,3942.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Goodness me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3942.0,3943.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But can you imagine that happening today?  Never ever. But then women were to be made fun of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3943.0,3957.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, exactly.  It was so disrespectful in all sorts of ways, wasn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3957.0,3961.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, yeah.  But it was supposed to be friendly and chummy, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3961.0,3966.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But it also was saying that your work couldn’t be taken seriously?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3966.0,3971.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Except then, after I gave my presentation, then they had a meeting of the faculty committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3971.0,3976.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e How did you recover from that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3976.0,3977.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I recover quickly from things, I guess, but it was just disconcerting.  Yes.  More after the fact, I realize. You know, at the time, it was such a shocker that I just got back on track and continued my talk.  But after the presentation, they had a faculty meeting, and they told me I had passed; in fact, my thesis was the best of the lot that year in biology.  That’s when you find out that there were no jobs, because they didn’t advertise jobs, and it was all through the grapevine, and only men were offered positions --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=3977.0,4017.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4017.0,4018.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- by the professors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4018.0,4019.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And nobody had made any attempt to give you any advice about what you were going to do with your Ph.D.?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4019.0,4027.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e The assumption was, at best, I could maybe go to a small teachers’ college, which is what most of the women Ph.D.s from Yale did.  But I was darned determined I wasn’t going to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4027.0,4045.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was the assumption, too, because Chuck was up the road that they would keep you on as a sort of --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4045.0,4050.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s what they operated on --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4050.0,4052.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4052.0,4053.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: -- through the whole time I was there:  because Chuck had a job, I didn’t really need one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4053.0,4057.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Or if you did have one, they could keep you as a research associate or a (inaudible)?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4057.0,4061.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.  Right.  NIH had just started their post-doctoral training grant and Yale got one of the first ones.  And so for two years, they put me on a post-doctoral training, which is fine.  That’s how I really got into genetics and mostly pretty trivial genetics, but in developmental biology till then.  But after I got done with my training -- I now had a two-year post-doc under my belt – still no effort to try to find me a job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4061.0,4097.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What about you --?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4097.0,4097.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I had seen my advisor -- well, the faculty was kind of split between those who found jobs for their students and those who throw them in the tank -- those who swim, fine; those who sink, too bad.  And that was sort of the attitude.  I guess he didn’t really know what to do, because as I say, he had these medical problems, and really, by that time, I was running his laboratory for him.  In fact, when he went to Australia for sabbatical a couple times, I literally did run his laboratory for him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4097.0,4132.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e This was Don Poulson?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4132.0,4132.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  But he was a sweet old man, and we were very good friends, and so forth and so on.   As I said, he always let me publish under my name, because he really knew he had nothing to do with what I was doing.  And fortunately, at the time, money had loosened up because of Sputnik.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4132.0,4153.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yes.  There was a huge influx of money into [science].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4153.0,4157.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And so I started getting my own grants.  I was getting NSF grants at the time.  When Clement Markert, who was a developmental biologist and then geneticist -- they brought him in in the mid-sixties to become, or late sixties, I guess, to become chair of the department.  Well, maybe he came later than that.  You’d have to check.  I’ve forgotten when he exactly came [Chair of Biology, 1965-1971].  But he was quite sensitive to the women’s issue, and he advised me, “Well, why do you want to get NSF money?”  I’d been led to believe that was so prestigious compared to an NIH grant.  He said, “Ah, NIH pays much more than NSF ever can or will.  Get yourself a NIH.  Your stuff could be twisted into basic research for \tmedicine.”   And, of course, it could because it was involved with gene regulation.  And so I applied for an NIH grant, and, yeah, first time, I got it, and huge change in pay and everything.  Well, not a huge change in pay, but in terms of equipment and supplies, and having to have my own technician for the first time, and so forth and so on.   Yes, that’s right.  That was in the mid-sixties, because in the first year after we adopted Tim, I couldn’t receive a salary.  I did have a technician, and so that was the first NIH grant I had.  Yeah, and that was ’65.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4157.0,4261.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e We’ll come back to that later.   One of the things -- I mean, you’ve talked quite a lot about graduate work, and the way the graduate grapevine seemed to work at Yale.  I was just wondering, coming in as a married graduate student, how you found the culture in Yale generally?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4261.0,4287.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, I was going to mention this, as a matter of fact. I was disappointed in the graduate program at Yale, having started out at Wisconsin.  I thought it was much better at Wisconsin at the time.  But, of course, there weren’t all the big names.  And the big thing about Yale, and you know, up and down the whole Northeast seaboard there, is that anybody doing anything significant would have to come and give a seminar, and you’d get to talk to them or hear their talks.  That was the big advantage, that, they didn’t have too much of at Wisconsin because it’s way inland.  That was good but I thought the courses by and large were terrible, because the professors couldn’t care less about teaching.  They were ill-prepared.  They mostly had the students give talks.  And mostly the student talks were not very good.  Now, I had come in with a little teaching experience from Millsaps, and so actually the faculty treated me with quite a little bit more respect, and being a married woman, too, except that ...   Well, for instance, the entomologist in the department decided that he wanted to teach entomology as he understood it, which was nothing like an ordinary entomology course was like.  So he had a lab with all these insects and stuff, and he just turned it over to me and said I was to teach the lab.  And I basically taught the entomology, and then he’d go off on these high-flown theories of his, (laughs) hypotheses which were mostly proved wrong later.  But I ended up essentially giving the laboratory for him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4287.0,4396.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And this was to all the graduate students, or to undergrad?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4396.0,4398.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e This was the first time I had a chance to have undergraduates. That happened after the coeds came in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4398.0,4403.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You didn’t do any teaching till coed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4403.0,4406.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no, no.  I gave lectures, seminars that graduate students would go to.  Of course, when I was a graduate student, between ’56 and ’60, I gave them as part of the core seminar series.   Then as a post-doc, I still continued on, sitting in on the seminar that my advisor gave.  What was it called?  Physiological genetics, but then it became known a few years later as developmental genetics.  So I continued to go, you know, out of respect to him, and I would always give a few lectures in there.  And once in a while, I would be invited as an instructor -- after I did the post-doc, I was an instructor, officially appointed.  Also in his lab, they gave me a title, which they claimed was very honorary for me, namely a faculty research associate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4406.0,4471.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, right!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4471.0,4472.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Which meant that it had to be approved by the Yale Corporation; therefore, you know, making it sound so great, but of course, you know what that meant! (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4472.0,4480.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  Was there never any talk, given what you’d done to date, that you could go on to a ladder appointment?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4480.0,4490.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, then the idea was that, well, we don’t hire our own right off.  You have to go off someplace, prove yourself, and then come back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4490.0,4499.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was that true of the men as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4499.0,4500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, because Joe Gall who had been one of Poulson’s students earlier on, he made his name at Minnesota, and they hired him back as the cell biologist for the department.  And, of course, he became quite well-known.   but you see, there was no way I could go away and come back, because I couldn’t make my name anyplace else.  Where would I do my research in the area?  Nowhere.   My husband was actually tempted to go to California, to Berkeley, to join the faculty there   but there was nothing there for me, and so he wouldn’t do it, because still, even out there, you know, at that time, there was nothing for women.  It wasn’t until quite late in the sixties that they started advertising faculty positions in science, and then in other places, so you could at least see what was available.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4500.0,4568.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, because it really was who you knew before then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4568.0,4572.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But by then, you know, I was getting on in years, and we had Tim, and it became less and less obvious that there would be anything for us in the same place.  He [Chuck] was invited up to the -- when the University of Guelph was formed out of the old Ontario Agricultural College where he got his degree -- that was part of the University of Toronto.  Then it became Guelph, University of Guelph, and a former graduate student friend of his from Wisconsin became chair of the department in entomology and wanted to get Chuck back up there, so he invited us up.  The only thing they would give me as the wife was an associate professorship with a guy doing research on amylase electrophoretic variance, like I was doing with Drosophila and his whole technique had a flaw in it.  He was seeing artifacts and didn’t know it, and they wanted me to work for him.  But Chuck being Chuck, he wouldn’t go, and he wouldn’t take it.  He didn’t think it was right to treat me like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4572.0,4641.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So you, really you were between -- you know, a cliché -- a rock and a hard place?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4641.0,4648.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, the only job offer that I got, or suggestion of a job that I probably could have got, was the guy who was the former chair of the department when I was a grad student at [Bell?].  He lived in North Haven, I think it was, and he was on the school board, and they were looking for a Ph.D. in biology to advise them for this high schools teaching science.  And he asked me if I’d be interested in that job.  That’s the only offer I ever had.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4648.0,4682.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But you really wanted to carry on researching?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4682.0,4684.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, sure.  I mean, that’s what I really wanted to do.  By that time that’s what I knew I wanted to do.  But I was going to say, after I gave my thesis presentation, and Bell was chair of the department then, and we had this faculty [meeting?], and they told me that mine was the best thesis of the bunch, yet I was not expected to do any more research.  And even though I, thanks to Don Poulson letting me have space in his lab, and eventually the NIH, when affirmative action came along in the seventies, they told Yale in no uncertain terms -- I guess Mary Helen [Goldsmith] has filled you in on this, but they said there were three of us in the same boat I was in in biology, and they had to do something about us.  And so, I told you at supper last night, they right off eliminated Mary Clutter, whose husband was in botany, but we were a newly-formed biology department, and the botanists fought like hell with the zoologists, you know.  And the zoologists domineered, so he had no real power -- he was from New Zealand, besides.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4684.0,4765.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So he didn’t have purchase, as it were?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4765.0,4767.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  They thought he was kind of odd to have been married to a woman, a feminist like that, anyway.  They had this rather strange lifestyle, I have to say, (laughs) even from my knowledge of today’s lifestyles.  So she was eliminated without any further consideration, and then   Mary Helen and I were the next two.  And by this time, I had a long list of single-authored papers and everything, and I was highly recognized.  As I said, Mary’s husband, Mary Helen’s husband, was chair of the department, and they only would allow one appointment, they voted on that.  And so where did that leave me?  Out in the cold. But in the meantime, my husband was getting more and more disillusioned with the administration of the ag station, which he thought was going far astray from doing the really good kind of basic research that he was interested in, and becoming very politicized, and he didn’t like that.  And so one person after the other was leaving the ag station, and he decided it was time for him to go, and if he went, it was my turn to get a job.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4767.0,4840.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.  Well, let’s hold that for -- do you want to have a break, because you’ve been talking for about an hour and a half.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4840.0,4846.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Would you like me to make some tea or...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4846.0,4849.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Tea would be lovely, yeah.   It’ll just give us a time to think about where we’re going to go next.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4849.0,4855.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"(Break in recording)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4855.0,4855.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e OK, so we’re back after lunch, and we’re going to pick up -- we were talking about Evelyn Hutchinson.  I’m sorry, Winifred, you have touched on this several times so far, but I’d like to talk a bit more about mentors and mentoring, because it does seem to be a very crucial  element to people’s progress --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4855.0,4883.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it seems to be now, but I never felt I had a mentor. But when I went back to high school, you can call my high school biology teacher a mentor, I suppose.  You could call Edith Chase a mentor, I suppose.  But because of the way I was brought up in my mother and father’s household, where you did everything yourself, you didn’t look to other people for support.  You were only competing with yourself, was the way I was brought up.  Probably if I’d had a real mentor, I might have gotten a much better job than ASU, but where would I get it from?  I wasn’t privy to the kind of information or connections.  My advisor was of the sort that believed in sink or swim.  And he treated his male students pretty much the same way, except that people would call him up, and he said, “Oh, yes, I have a student coming on,” and so they at least have a shot at it.  But he wouldn’t arrange things, only if they sort of came along.  And of course, nobody asked for a woman.  I never felt I had a mentor.  As I say, I was raised to think that I could do anything if I really wanted to.  You know, I could fill in the background.\tOn second thoughts Sheila Counce [First woman in Duke University Dept of Anatomy, 1967] was maybe the closest, but she was really just a friend, more of a friend, and still is.  She’s retired now from Duke.  But there were aspects of her personality that both the men and women suffered from.  She’d get a little jealous if she felt she wasn’t being the top in the crowd, you know?  And, unfortunately, she continued being that way.  She’d never say things to your face, but you’d find out behind your back that things were not quite the way you thought they were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=4883.0,5018.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So that raises actually a very interesting point about the women that were your peers, in biology or in science generally at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5018.0,5031.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, she was a post-doc.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5031.0,5034.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e She was a post-doc; you were...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5034.0,5034.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I was a graduate student.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5034.0,5035.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You were a graduate student.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5035.0,5036.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And then we were both in the same lab as the post-docs after that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5036.0,5039.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I just wonder -- you’ve done a quick sketch of one relationship and the dynamic between the two of you.  I was just wondering if you’d like to comment on any of the other women that you knew at that time, and whether there was any sense that you went to each other with problems, discussing strategy, any of these things in the mid-sixties?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5039.0,5066.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Not strategy, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5066.0,5068.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e No?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5068.0,5068.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Mary Clutter tried to get me involved in AWIS, and she did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5068.0,5072.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e That was a little bit later.  That was --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5072.0,5075.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That was the early seventies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5075.0,5076.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I think it was 1971 with AWIS.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5076.0,5078.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I didn’t really know her before then.  In the sixties we had a fairly nice lab group, and I was very close to all of Don’s students.  And they respected me.  They’d come to me with -- even when I was a grad student -- with their problems because they didn’t get anything out of him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5078.0,5104.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, and of course, you’d already had a couple years teaching as well, didn’t you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5104.0,5107.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5107.0,5109.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was this both men and women came to you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5109.0,5112.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah, although there were more men in his lab than women.  And, well, Dave was a post-doc.  It was the post-docs, too.  I had a very warm, fuzzy feeling about the people in the lab and vice versa.  We kept in touch with one another over the years, mostly.  I can’t say that I ever went to women for help on anything.  I’d discuss my research with Sheila because she provided me with the mutants I did my thesis on, from Edinburgh.  Oh, there was one woman down the hall, and I’m trying to remember her name.  She of course didn’t get tenure, but they did hire her on as an assistant professor.  She was in biochemistry, and I was just beginning to learn about biochemistry, so once in a while, I would go down the hall and talk to her.  But she was very cynical about her chances there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5112.0,5178.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5178.0,5178.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e She was a lovely person, I thought.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5178.0,5181.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e How did she express the cynicism?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5181.0,5184.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, she’d just say, she had no future here, or tell me one story after another that she heard or experienced herself.  And she got treated badly, really badly.  Yeah.  And she was on the laddered faculty, but she knew she wasn’t going to stay.  She didn’t think she had a chance.  The ratio was something like six or seven assistant professors to every one that went on and so there was a lot of backstabbing going on among the assistant professors, both sexes, just to see who was going to get that one slot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5184.0,5221.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So being on the ladder was a fairly Darwinian thing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5221.0,5231.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: Absolutely.  Absolutely.  And that’s what struck me when I got out to ASU.  It was a complete change of attitude.  At Yale, I was always under the impression that they were trying to eliminate me, put me down, put me in my place.  I got out there, and it was just the opposite toward the young faculty, too:  we want to help you, encourage you to make tenure, you know.  It was just a complete reversal of the attitude.  It was so refreshing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5231.0,5262.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Having spoken to so many people now, I do wonder that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5262.0,5266.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It’s turned political since then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5266.0,5268.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- that, yeah, the difficulty often wasn’t so much a gender difficulty as a structural difficulty.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5268.0,5277.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It was structural, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5277.0,5278.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, because of the way the tenure system worked at Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5278.0,5281.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was like that at Harvard, too, of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5281.0,5284.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5284.0,5284.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, and Princeton, I presume.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5284.0,5287.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e That many are called, but few are chosen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5287.0,5290.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, yeah.  I don’t know if you keep up on the Nobel Prize winners, but the year that the prize went to developmental genetics, namely drosophilists, two of the three who received the prize, one of them was on the study section with me in California, at Caltech.  The other one, who was really one of the major ones, was one of Don’s students who moved to another lab because he wasn’t getting anything there.  But I was on his Ph.D. thesis.  He used to house-sit for me, (laughs) when we’d go on holiday.  And he’s just a really, really bright guy, really interesting fellow.  So, I mean, I could be on these theses committees, but I still just was not treated the same.  But the students would treat me with great respect. Don treated me with great respect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5290.0,5355.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5355.0,5356.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5356.0,5357.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But you said, just before we switched the recorder back on, over lunch that someone else whom you regarded as somebody who was in your court as opposed to against you was Evelyn Hutchinson, and that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5357.0,5376.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, he wasn’t against me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5376.0,5378.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no, but he was actually batting for you rather than against --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5378.0,5381.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e When I was a graduate student.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5381.0,5382.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5382.0,5383.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5383.0,5385.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I strongly suspect he supported me, too, when they were looking to put one of us on the faculty, but I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5385.0,5392.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, but you were saying that there were occasions that you maybe had a harder time simply because you were a married woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5392.0,5403.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yes, because they made all kinds of assumptions. They wouldn’t ask me; they’d assume for me without asking me.  And that really burned me up, because I might have said completely opposite to what they decided for me. So yes, that did tick me off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5403.0,5426.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did Evelyn Hutchinson ever kind of intervene on your behalf when that sort of occasion arose?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5426.0,5434.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I would only hear about it through the grapevine. Through the students who found out from their faculty members, you know, what went on in the faculty meeting, and then they’d get it back to me.  There was something I was going to tell you there in that regard and I can’t think of what it was.  I should have a notebook where I can write things down myself as I think of them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5434.0,5458.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was it about being a married student?  Or people making assumptions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5458.0,5468.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I tell you, they treated me a little above the run-of-the-mill graduate students, because I had been an assistant professor.  They did treat me a little better, and I was married, so there was none of that overlay of sexuality that is always there in graduate school life, I’ve learned.   So in that sense -- oh, what Evelyn used to do -- if somebody had a problem that related in any way to genetics or development, or had genetic overtones or revolutionary genetic overtones, he would send them down to talk to me, like I was the expert.  Well, you know, that builds your ego up, right? But I swear, he’s the only one on the faculty that did that.  Everybody else would try to denigrate me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5468.0,5523.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?  In what ways would they try to denigrate you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5523.0,5525.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, by telling me I was wasting my time writing grant proposals.  Like, “Oh, I have an associate job in my lab.  Why don’t you just quit, and I’ll write the proposals, and come to work for me?”  But that would mean I’d give up my research and do his research.  And things like that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5525.0,5540.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was that common enough amongst faculty with other women?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5540.0,5544.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there were only three of us in our department who were in that category.  They got rid of the rest of them or never gave them the opportunity in the first place to get their own grants.  And since we both got our own grants, we were self-supporting, so it was just a matter of finding somebody who’d give you space.  And in that sense, I was really grateful to Don, but boy, the other faculty members felt like he was being so generous.  Well, sure he was.  I was doing his job for him, running the lab. Or else he would have been forced into retirement much sooner, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5544.0,5591.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You said that one of the great benefits of having Don as your supervisor was the fact that he just let you write under your own name and didn’t presume to (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5591.0,5603.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e He had to sign off.  Until my appointment he had to sign off on all my grants.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5603.0,5608.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But did you know of other people where somebody else’s work was appropriated?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5608.0,5615.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, you always hear those stories.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5615.0,5618.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  I mean, there was the famous plagiarism case, of course, was it the late seventies?  The Phil Felig case, which was a Yale case, but I just wondered if in your time, you’d experienced --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5618.0,5628.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, we’d hear about these things.   But you know, every graduate student can say that about their advisor, when their advisor’s name goes on their published work.  But Don didn’t do that.  See, that’s where he was different.  But he came from a school where that’s the way they did it.  And as the grants got bigger and bigger, that became less and less because you had to have your name on papers, or you wouldn’t get a grant.  So that’s how you did it.  And in the long run, it takes the professor further, further away from the actual research, because they have to have students or post-docs or undergrads doing the research, and so they lose touch, kind of, with what’s going on.  And then all these big old lists of names go on their papers.  While I was at Yale, I didn’t have to deal with that, and I tried to continue on with Don’s situation at ASU, in that I’d always had the student at least the first author, because let’s face it, I did do a lot of help and work, because they were not the best of students, all of them.  And they needed a lot of help, and I would help them write the paper and all, but I never put my name first.  But I needed the publication to keep my lab going.  Because you have [to have] a grant. And if you don’t have a grant, you’re out the door.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5628.0,5733.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yeah.  This makes, I think, sciences very, very different from the humanities?  This grant applying and getting culture is very, very central to how science works?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5733.0,5751.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Nowadays, it’s absolutely central.   Yes, definitely.  And now, the big deal is the collaborative research.  Well, I came up under the school where just the opposite.  You figured it out yourself.  But, you know, the technicality, no one person can possibly know all these different avenues that your research gets into, if you want to follow them up.  And so you really do need to do collaborative research now.  And that’s what universities encourage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5751.0,5791.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Thinking back to those years at Yale, both as a graduate student and then in your various appointments on the faculty, did you personally experience discrimination, or sexual harassment, when you were there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5791.0,5818.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, of course, the sexual harassment, I told you about -- the showing the picture of me in a two-piece bathing suit in the middle of my dissertation presentation.   Oh, both at Wisconsin and at Yale, where male faculty members would try to pull some stunt (laughs), you know, even though I was married -- at Yale, not at Wisconsin.  But I learned over the years, especially from Dorothy Skinner -- does her name...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5818.0,5857.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.  Dorothy, I know.  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5857.0,5858.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Dorothy told me some tales from the old days -- the good old boy days.  It was throughout the Ivy League.  It was just awful, the things that they put women through, and expected it of them.  And if they were going to get any kind of advancement, they better keep their mouths shut.  And she gave me a lot of examples of that.  I didn’t run into that so much because, as I said, I grew up in New York, traveling the New York subways, and I had my antennae out, not looking for it, but the minute anything didn’t seem right, I just would disappear and not be there.  And I would avoid things, so they wouldn’t happen.  But in terms of socializing, my husband was always an entertaining person to be around, and we would have parties and invite the grad students and the faculty.  And they all loved to come to our parties.  I always said that it was the best party on the block, you know.  We did a lot of socializing and had lots of fun, but that was strictly separate from on the work scene.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5858.0,5927.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You did mention earlier on this morning there were two particular stories, one, at some award at the Oceanographic Institute, and there’s one also about the professor of entomology?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5927.0,5941.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.  Well, that was the reception at the Oceanographic Institute, for the new graduate students coming in that fall.  And it was then the zoology department, and that was my first semester there.  I didn’t tell you one funny story that really struck me.  I mentioned before I felt that going to Yale after Wisconsin was a bit of a letdown, and one of the first things I learned at that reception -- this is before this event I’ll get to -- there was one woman who had a master’s degree who  continued on the work of a famous embryologist, long since dead, but they let her continue doing research and putting his notes together, and they let her publish a paper every so often, as long as his name was on it.  Anyway, she was a sweet little old lady, and here she’s at this big, long table with this huge urn of tea or whatever it was -- tea and coffee, I guess, but anyway -- and she was pouring.  No, it was high tea, that’s right.  She was pouring the tea.  And at Wisconsin, you know, the graduate students did that.  You know, OK, it’s your turn next week and all, and we’d do all that.  So I went to her, and I said, “Sally, you look so tired.  You want me to help me out with it?”  She was honored to be able to pour tea for all these faculty members and she was insulted that I should even ask.  (laughs) And I thought, “Oh, I made a faux pas.”  But it was at that same reception that I was talking about, and it got kind of crowded, and I went to reach for a Kleenex in my pocket -- I had these big pockets on the dress I was wearing -- and I found a hand in my pocket that belonged to another one of the faculty members who later put on the air of being the great feminist, I might add.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=5941.0,6059.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, there was that one, and then there was this entomology professor who is now dead; I can say what I want.  (laughs) He was always wanting to pinch my behind (laughs) quite frankly.  And I would avoid him as much as I could, but, one time, we were out having a pizza after one of the seminars, and my husband was with me, and his wife was with us, and it was quite a group, and as I went to sit down, he managed to pinch me.  And I let out a shriek, and everybody in the restaurant turned around and looked, and I could have just died of embarrassment.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6059.0,6099.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But he didn’t look guilty at all, did he?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6099.0,6101.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, no, no.  He just brushed it off.  (laughter) And his wife didn’t say anything.  She must have been used to it.  They did get divorced many years later.  So they weren’t happily married, I guess.  But again, she was doing all his publishing for him.  That’s right.  She was an entomologist, too, and all the papers that come out under his name, with her name, but she in essence did most of the research and the writing, too, but she never got the real credit.  But people on the know knew that it was her work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6101.0,6132.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And in amongst all of this you had a child?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6132.0,6140.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, we adopted a child.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6140.0,6142.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Nevertheless, you had the responsibility of a baby, an infant?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6142.0,6145.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6145.0,6146.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Tell us a little bit about that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6146.0,6149.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, once I had my Ph.D., we started thinking about having a family.  I was just starting in my thirties then.  And it became obvious that nothing was happening.  We had put it off.  And I, by the way, always advise young women to have their children while they’re still young, first in terms of the health of the child and in terms of genetic situations that can arise as you get older.  And also, you have to have that under control so you know where you’re going.   You just cannot put it off.  And the older you get, the less chance you have of conceiving yourself.  So anyway, I didn’t conceive, and quite a few of the faculty members whose wives were also in science, and in the same situation, they told me about this place they had adopted their children through in Hartford, Connecticut.  And so we went there and had a very, very good relationship.  And nine months to the day, when we went, we had a little baby.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6149.0,6219.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And that was in 1965?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6219.0,6220.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Nineteen sixty-five.  And it was just before Christmas, and I was at a [nicezyme?] conference in Williamsburg, Virginia, at the time.  We were celebrating, you know, just all of us getting together, and we were in the room of one of the young fellows, and he’s just retiring from Cornell -- I should have been at his retirement last Saturday, but I didn’t get to it.  But anyway, while we were there, we get a telephone call.  And he called me over to the phone and said, “Winifred, there’s an announcement for you.”  And I said, “What?”  And so he hands me the phone.  “Hi, Mom.”  (laughs) It’s Chuck calling me.  So of course, we celebrated Tim’s adoption right then and there.  We had the party all ready to go.  We had quite an evening.  So when I got home, they were waiting for me to get home from Williamsburg so we could go up and pick up Tim.  And he was just three months old on the week or two after that.  And just before Christmas.  And when they brought him out, he was so cute.  They had him done up in a -- yellow is my favorite color, as they knew -- and he was all done up in yellow with a great big red Christmas bow on him.  (laughs) He was so cute.  Had red hair, but it didn’t go with the bow -- which he lost.  That was fun.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6220.0,6304.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e How did you, again, this was long before ideas of kindergartens and daycare were even on the agenda, I think, at Yale, in 1965.  That came in ’69, ’70 --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6304.0,6320.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6320.0,6320.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- was the earliest.  How did you negotiate childcare, carrying on a full-time job, and everything else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6320.0,6327.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, OK, the years before that I had been accumulating a lot of data, which needed to be written up in book chapters and things like that.  And the adoption agency almost insisted that I continue with my career, but on a step down modus operandi, and not receive a salary so I wouldn’t feel the pressure of a salaried job, but still do my work.  And, of course, I’m writing for myself.  I’m getting credit for it, anyway.  I had an excellent young technician at the time, who I really relied on.  She was a wonderful person -- who came from Phoenix, Arizona, by the way – and she held down the fort in terms of keeping experiments going, and I planned them, and so I’d only have to go in the lab maybe   two or three times a week, and then I, for the first year, depended on finding babysitters in the neighborhood.  And, of course, everybody in the neighborhood was just so delighted that we had this little baby.  They all wanted to baby-sit for me.  So that was OK, and I had local help then.  But then when I did go back to full-time work the following year, I found out through someone in my husband’s department about this couple who had done a lot of   fostering of children going out to adoption and had, in fact, adopted a child and had two of their own natural kids.  And they’re very loving people, not educ -- I don’t think he finished grammar school.  Yeah, he was self-educated.  He was in the midst of reading all of Sandburg’s books about Lincoln.  And when he saw Chuck’s library, he just went gaga.  So Chuck used to lend him -- he had a wonderful history library -- he would lend him all his books.  Uneducated, but, you know, he was educated; he loved history.  And Ellie had an elementary-school -- I don’t think she ever went through high school.  They came from -- she came from the South, South Carolina.  But they were a loving couple, and he worked for the New Haven railroad as a signal man, among other things.  Of course, he taught Tim how to work the train signals.  That was one of the things they used to play games with.  They took over Tim almost like grandparents, because his grandparents weren’t nearby.  He only got to see them on big holidays.  And he grew up really with their loving care.  And Tom worked at night and was home during the day, so they could take him around to see all kinds of things. I remember one day I came home from work to pick him up, and here are Tom and Tim up in the tree in the front yard, writing poetry together.  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6327.0,6510.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6510.0,6511.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And it’s such a cute poem.  I still have it today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6511.0,6516.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6516.0,6517.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But I mean that’s the kind of thing.  It wasn’t high-tech, you know, filling those brain cells.  No, he was exploring all the time.  And that’s the kind of upbringing I wanted my child to have.  So he became more reliant on himself, and also, the loving aspect was the most important.  He got loads of love from them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6517.0,6539.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You were very fortunate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6539.0,6541.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I was in that regard.  But, you know, the fellow who recommended them to us didn’t think they were good enough for his kids, because Tom had a bit of a drinking problem, but he had it under control, but he wouldn’t have them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6541.0,6556.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What was the reaction of your colleagues at Yale when you, as it were, became a mother?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6556.0,6562.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, everybody in my lab was just delighted, and anybody I knew personally was very pleased.  I didn’t hear anything much about it from the others on the faculty.  No, not much, very happy about [it], but not much spoken about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6562.0,6582.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh, I’d bring him into the lab on weekends, when nobody was around, you know, and I can remember, one time Don was in -- he had a visitor from England, I think it was.  I can’t remember who it was now.  But anyway,  Tim was with me, and I had to do some fly work, so he was having fun running around the eleventh floor of the Kline Biology Tower, and very well-behaved.  I heard the whispers two doors over saying, “Well, whose child is that?” and Don says, “It’s Winifred’s.”  “Oh, he’s very well-behaved.” You know, because he wasn’t getting into any mischief.  He knew better than to get in any mischief.  But he was very impatient, so I knew I could only keep him there so many minutes, and then we had to get out, but it was enough to get something done.  And I tried to give him things to do.   He could have been a biologist.  Chuck used to take him on field trips occasionally, and he’d outdo Chuck’s technicians by far.  He was so good and fast, and a smart kid.  But he decided he had two biologists as parents, and the thing he didn’t want to do was go into biology. (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6582.0,6660.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I have heard the concern expressed that when women back in the sixties or seventies had children, then that was absolutely proof positive that they weren’t serious about their careers.  That’s why I asked you the question.  But maybe because you were an older mother...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6660.0,6684.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Maybe because I was a little older.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6684.0,6687.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, and you’d already established yourself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6687.0,6688.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And I’d already established myself, pretty much.  Let’s see, ’65.  Well, I hadn’t that much of a reputation, but I had quite a few publications out, and I’d been invited to some international meetings and things like that.  I guess they knew I was serious.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6688.0,6706.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And the whole issue of whether you were going to (inaudible) or was beside the point anyway, wasn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6706.0,6713.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, at that time, there wasn’t even anything to do with it because I was just more or less doing my research and paying attention to that.  As I said to you earlier, I never thought of either getting married or raising children as that much of a challenge; it was just something you did.  You know, you wash your hair once a week or whatever, and you do the dishes after a meal, cook the meal.  And you learn to be efficient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6713.0,6743.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You mentioned earlier on,  when we touched on relationships between yourself and other women in your field at Yale,  and that brings me to,  what I think was one of the important things that happened at Yale in sort of 1970, ’71, and that was the foundation of AWIS.   My understanding is that it was one or two women at Yale who were the founding mothers, as it were, of the Association of Women in Science.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6743.0,6788.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I don’t know if Mary Clutter was one of them, but she was certainly very active from the beginning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6788.0,6797.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e My understanding is from the literature from AWIS that I’ve read, I understand that Mary was definitely one of the first.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6797.0,6800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6800.0,6801.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Because there was Mary Clutter and Ginny Walbot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6801.0,6805.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.  She’s at Stanford now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6805.0,6808.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right, yes.  And I can’t remember who the third woman was, but certainly those two were involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6808.0,6817.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it’s fascinating that that section should be founded by Yale women -- or at least one Yale woman at that point","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6817.0,6828.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, but Ginny was a grad student at --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6828.0,6830.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e She was a grad student at that point?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6830.0,6832.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6832.0,6832.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Were you co-opted into all of this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6832.0,6834.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Mary -- I’d see her at seminars, and I didn’t get very active in it, but I certainly joined, and I paid my dues, you know, and that sort of thing.  But I was already in the Women in Cell Biology and I’d go to their meetings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6834.0,6852.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that was the same time that I was chair of this committee on social responsibilities for the Society for Developmental Biology.  And I was putting together this booklet on sexism in the biological sciences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6852.0,6864.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, “Sexism Satirized.”  This is just a wonderful, wonderful, little booklet, which I hope I can get hold of a copy of.    Tell me a little bit about that, how it came about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6864.0,6879.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Frank Ruddle, who is a mouse geneticist -- mouse-human geneticist -- at Yale came in while I was there as a young assistant professor.  And he became quite well-known in his field.  He was into trying to keep up with the Joneses when it came to women.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6879.0,6906.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6906.0,6906.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And he was quite open-minded, and he married a young gal who actually had been a technician in Don’s lab, and she became a professor in the med school, in immunology.  And I don’t think she’s retired yet; she was quite a bit younger than me.  Anyway, Frank asked me, when he became president of the Society of Developmental Biology, if I would put together a committee on social responsibilities.  And so at the next meeting, which was actually held at Yale, he wanted to have a symposium on genetic engineering -- implications of genetic engineering, which was way ahead of the times.  And maybe that was the meeting before -- I’d have to check the dates now.  No, it was about that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6906.0,6963.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So this would be ’74, thereabouts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6963.0,6966.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e The movie came out later, but the symposium was beforehand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6966.0,6972.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Anyway, it might have been ’73.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6972.0,6974.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6974.0,6974.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e The symposium.  Is this dated?  Seventy...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6974.0,6979.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e The book is dated ’76, but that, of course, that’s when it was actually published, so --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6979.0,6984.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e So it was probably worked on in seventy...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6984.0,6987.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Seventy-three, ’74, I would have thought.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6987.0,6988.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Probably. OK, so that was about the same time, and we held the meeting.  Of course, there were a few men that came -- very few, but a few men came to the meeting, and the women thought this was a great idea, to have something for women.  It was going to be about social implications.  Well, we had the genetic engineering bit, where we made a film, made at Yale, on the implications of genetic engineering.  And then the women said, well, let’s put out a book of sexist quotations.  Some -- I’ve forgotten who, might have been Ginny Talbot, for all I know – Ginny Walbot.  I’m sorry, Walbot.   She might have been the one who suggested it, but I’m not sure, because there were a lot of enthusiastic women in the group.  They wanted me to be the editor of it, since I was chairing the committee, and I agreed to do that.  And so we put out a letter to the membership of the society, what we were doing, and we asked for quotations.  Well, I got as many quotations from men as I did from women, which was interesting.  But the Society for Developmental Biology has always been very pro-feminine in their approach to things.  But faster than the others, and has always been very supportive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=6988.0,7077.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Why do you think that is?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7077.0,7078.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I don’t know why, except that they’ve had women presidents, and they’ve never shied from having women in their executive committee.  I became secretary of the society one time.   Probably because it dealt with biology, you know, and if you’re a biologist, why should you expect different from one sex than the other, necessarily?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7078.0,7106.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, except, though, of course, when you look at a lot of these quotations you have to say some of them come from (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7106.0,7113.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And it would make them angry when they’d see them.  That’s why I got all these quotes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7113.0,7116.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7116.0,7117.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Then I told you earlier -- I don’t know if you want me to repeat this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7117.0,7121.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes, please.  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7121.0,7122.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I had to find an artist to do the cartoons.  We decided to have a book of satire.  I guess it was my idea to put these quotations into cartoons.  At the time, I was active in a local civic group called IMPACT, the Independent Movement for Positive Action, which was trying to save the shorefront of West Haven, Connecticut, for a public park.  Because powers that be were trying were quite involved in the crooked politics of West Haven at the time, [double-?/democratic?] party system, in selling off what was supposed to be public land to high-rise apartments so it would block the beaches off to the residents.  And that had them quite upset.  I got involved with that group and the wife of one of the members -- I became chairman of the group, and my vice-chairman, his wife had been an artist in her early days, I learned.  I went to talk to her, and I gave her the stack of quotations, and I said, “Barbara” -- Barbara Abbott was her name -- I said, “Do you think you could illustrate these?”  She said, “Oh, I’d love to do that, Winifred.  You must remember that my mother was a suffragette.”  And I hadn’t known that.  And Barbara was anything but the suffragette type.  She was the burdened housewife with four teenagers who she did everything for.  You know, she was just completely domesticated.  And she hadn’t done any artwork for years and years, since she’d gotten married.  And she just went to town on this, and she was really wonderful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7122.0,7229.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, some of them are just wonderful.  I love this centerfold.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7229.0,7232.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  (laughs)  Oh, that was my idea to have a centerfold.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7232.0,7237.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, the map of the battlefield of life, which is the uterus.  (laughter) Yeah, that’s lovely.  So, definitely, I hope I can get hold of a copy of this, because it should go into the Yale archives.   It’s definitely something, if we were ever having an exhibition, it should be there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7237.0,7256.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, let me look around, I think that’s my only copy left except for Tim’s but we can Xerox it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7256.0,7267.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e We can get a copy made of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7267.0,7269.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7269.0,7270.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e It’s too valuable to keep in the family!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7270.0,7272.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, well, I could scan a colored copy for you.  Sure, I can do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7272.0,7275.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- we can scan it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7275.0,7276.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e In fact, I’ll go back and have it done because, uh...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7276.0,7281.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And you can just send it to me as a PDF.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7281.0,7283.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Sure.  Well, I can convert to a PDF, but that doesn’t give you -- for instance, the center fold-out is a different size paper. Oh, well, I’ll work out something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7283.0,7300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I’m sure we’ll work out something.  No, it’s just brilliant.  Thinking about this book, and, you know, it really does hit the nail on the head when it comes to the various forms of sexism that women were encountering in the in the seventies, just as women’s lib and second-wave feminism was taking off.  Do you remember if there was a particular point in your own life when suddenly you realized that the way that your career was turning out, and the difficulties you were encountering, that there were structural difficulties in society, and that women did have to do something, possibly collectively. The law had to be changed.  Did you have a moment when you suddenly became a feminist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7300.0,7360.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Florence Minnis: Well, let me just say, my mother certainly was a feminist, with her background.   You know, life was always easy for me because of my academic record.  I didn’t really have much problem until I had my Ph.D., and then when I finished my post-doc at Yale, and then it was time to get a job -- that was when it really struck home:  well, what am I supposed to do with this?  Nobody wants a woman, unless you’re going to teach at some little college and not do research there, or a little bit of piddling research that wouldn’t amount to anything.  That’s when it struck home.   but I was in a situation where I couldn’t do anything about it, and I just went along as long as Don Poulson let me use his laboratory, and I could use that for my research, and I was getting well funded by NSF and then NIH.   I have a story about NSF, though; I’ll have to tell you.  My last grant while I was at Yale.  I never applied again after that.  But it also tied in with the Society for Developmental Biology.   Do you want to hear that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7360.0,7442.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, let’s go on -- let’s finish this story that you’re telling me, and then we’ll go on to NSF story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7442.0,7448.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: I had the money to do my research, but I knew because I couldn’t have my own students, that I could never achieve what I needed to do in terms of my research, because it would take many, many hands, lots and lots of space, and I could never do that.  And so I just sort of had to float along and do what I could with what I had.  Sheila Counce asked me to do a big, big review on the role of hormones in insect development, which took up a lot of my time.  It’s a big, big chapter in a book she and Waddington put together [S.J. Counce \u0026 C.H. Waddington  Developmental systems: insects/  Academic Press. 1972].  And she was the first editor on it and she asked me to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7448.0,7497.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Was that a kind of sisterly act, or was it because she felt that you --?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7497.0,7502.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, here’s the problem.  There was so much feuding going on among the insect endocrinologists.  Nobody could get along with one another, and it turned out every review that had ever been written was always written from the point of view of one guy and his people, and the other guy, and they wouldn’t ever try to put the two together.  Right?  So she wanted someone who was neutral, having not been in either school.  And of course, all my knowledge I’d gotten basically through reading, and also, I had worked in Gerry Wyatt’s lab, who was a young insect biochemist in the department, who went up to Canada not too long after I left.  He was Canadian.  So I learned a lot of this stuff in his laboratory, and he taught me the practical biochemistry that I really needed to know.  So Sheila knew I could write scientific stuff well, and she knew I was very critical in my writing, so she asked me to write the chapter and pull it all together, which I did.  The chapter itself is over 200 pages.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7502.0,7579.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, goodness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7579.0,7580.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: I read about 6,000 references in total, but I could only use about 3,000 of those (laughs) referenced in the text.  So it was a big chapter.  And it’s been come to known as the landmark in terms of review chapters on the subject, up till that time.  It came out in ’73 or ’74.  And to this day, I see people I’ve never met before, they hear my name:  “Oh, yes.”  They still use my chapter, because whenever they need a new idea, what to do in research, they just go to my chapter, and there it is.  So that’s very encouraging.  And I’ve had graduate students from other colleges and universities write to me:  “Oh, thank you so much for that, because you helped me resolve my problem with my thesis.”  And so that’s really gratifying.  I did a lot of work on that during this time when Tim was little, and when you’re writing big reviews, you well know, you want peace and quiet, so you don’t hang around the university; you go to a corner and...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7580.0,7654.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7654.0,7654.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And he was a good little kid who always knew how to take care of himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7654.0,7660.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So really, your difficulties as a woman in science came with, as it were, getting a proper job?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7660.0,7669.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, that’s basically what it was.  And decisions were made for me without ever asking me.  And oh, I was going to say -- yeah, that’s right.   When it finally came down to the end and we were treated as if we were really applying for a position on the faculty, laddered faculty, of course, we had to do the seminar.  Mary Clutter had already been dismissed out of hand.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7669.0,7702.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e This was the whole tenure...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7702.0,7704.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e This is for the tenure track.  [Prof. Doane takes up the issue discussed earlier in the interview at p.51ff.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7704.0,7706.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7706.0,7707.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e She wasn’t even invited to give a seminar.   When I gave mine, not one faculty member came except Don Poulson, whose lab I’d been doing all this work in, and Bell (sp?), who was chair of the seminar committee that year.  They were the only people coming.  Now, that work that I reported on was so important that Evelyn Hutchinson insisted that I put it in PNAS [Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?], and it became a textbook case in many of the   books used by people in developmental biology, mouse genome as well as Drosophila work.  And not a single faculty member even came to hear it except for those two.  One had to be there as chair of the seminar committee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7707.0,7758.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Why do you think they didn’t turn up?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7758.0,7762.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, they didn’t want me.  See, they knew they already were taking Mary Helen [Goldsmith].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7762.0,7766.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes, I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7766.0,7768.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It was a foregone conclusion, so why waste my time?  But don’t get me wrong, the room was standing room only, because I already had enough of a reputation on campus, both on the main campus and over at the med school, that all the young people were there, just cheering it on, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7768.0,7785.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But galling all the same?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7785.0,7787.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.  Can you imagine?  I think it was Dean Mintz [Jacqueline Mintz?] that demanded that they gave us a chance at that, and that was part of the search, you have to have a seminar.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7787.0,7801.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  But it was all...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7801.0,7803.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It was all rigged ahead of time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7803.0,7805.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, it was all just lip service to the system?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7805.0,7808.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  So that they could report to the NIH that yes, I had given a seminar.  See, it’s in the schedule.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7808.0,7816.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, they checked the box.  Well, at least you got a very good publication out of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7816.0,7822.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, several publications out of it.  And I opened up a whole new area of research. And it was good, because it was just \tbefore the time when protein genes were being cloned, and I cloned the second protein gene in Drosophila, and I did that after I got to ASU.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7822.0,7840.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Before we started talking about when your feminist consciousness was awoken, you said you had a story about your last NSF grant?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7840.0,7852.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh.  OK, this was very interesting.  This was when Tim was a little baby.   Two or three, four, somewhere in there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7852.0,7866.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e The late sixties?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7866.0,7867.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  I think it was maybe the early seventies.  I think it was early seventies -- ’70, ’71, somewhere in there.  I put in my usual renewal, and, of course, was told by everybody on the faculty, “Oh, why waste your time?  You’re never going to get it.”  But I put it in anyway, and I go in, and there’s a telephone call from the director of the developmental biology program at the NSF.  “Oh, congratulations, Dr. Doane.  You’re going to be funded.”  Yahoo, yay, I’m going to be funded again -- at a time when things were pretty tight, getting tight, right?  And I said, “But I need to go over the budget with you.”  So we went over the budget.  We got down to the last nitty-gritty, and everything was as I had written it, and fine, hunky-dory.  And then I said, “Well, wait a minute.  Where’s my salary?”  And he said, “Well, I understand you’re married.  Is that right?”  And I said, “Yeah.”  “Well, is your husband incapacitated somehow so he can’t take care of you?”  And I said, “No,” but I said, “But I need that money.  The little trivial salary I’m asking for would just about cover my baby-sitting expenses.”  And they said, “Well, we don’t give money for baby-sitting.”  (laughs) And he was not going to give me a salary.  He expected me to work for nothing.  Well, as I mentioned earlier to you, Clem Markert was really quite pro -- I won’t say pro- the feminist movement.  He was equal.  He felt women should be treated equally, and I respected him for that, because he didn’t bend over backward to be one or the other; he just was straight down the middle.  Well, first, I told Don Poulson about the conversation, and he was horrified.  He said, “You better go talk to Clem about that.”  So I went to talk to Clem.  And he’d just gotten back from Washington -- and by the way, in that pile of stuff here, some of the letters relating to this, I discovered.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=7867.0,8011.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I must look at those afterwards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8011.0,8014.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I’ll find them again.  I hope I have them.  I think I do.   He was outraged, absolutely outraged.  He was like the knight getting on his sterling white horse with his spear in hand or whatever.  And he’d just come back when Carlson [Carson ?] was the head honcho at the NSF at the time.  He’d just put out a directive to all program directors to be extra-cautious about not discriminating against minorities or women, and here is this guy asking me to work without a salary.  So he says, “You’ve got to write a letter,” and he suggested that I add a little phrase in my letter to the effect that I did not feel it was appropriate for the government to expect my husband to support my research.  It basically is what he’s asking me to do.  But he had it couched in very good terms, which I incorporated into my letter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8014.0,8081.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eand it was this guy:\u003c/strong\u003e “What do you mean by writing a letter?”  And he was all in a fury and a fit because Carson had been after him, and he wanted me to exonerate him.  And he said, “Well, we can go over that.”  And I said, “Well, I told you in the letter what I thought about it, and I don’t think I should be working for nothing when I have to support the sitting fees for my child to even go to work.”  And he said, “Well, we can go over the budget again.”  But before he would do it, I had to make a promise.  I had to make a promise to exonerate him, to write a letter saying that it had all been a misunderstanding, so that he would be off the hook.  OK, so I begrudgingly agreed, and he gave me my full budget without a penny off what I had proposed.  And it wasn’t till years later, I found out -- we had a business manager that we brought into the Society for Developmental Biology later on.  It was after I’d been secretary, a few years later.  Anyway, she went to work for the NSF and ended up in this guy’s office.  And she was sort of running the office for him.  You know, they bring them in just for two-year stints at a time.  He never got back the second year.   They didn’t invite him back.   I remember his name now.  I probably shouldn’t say it.  She told me that the day that this conversation was going on between me and him, when the people in the office heard about it, all the women in the office went on strike.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8081.0,8249.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8249.0,8250.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Because they knew that my proposal was in the top ten of all proposals submitted in that round, and if you’re in the top ten -- not 10%, but the top ten -- you automatically get your budget without change.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8250.0,8265.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8265.0,8266.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And he had deliberately, because I was a woman -- with a baby -- taken my salary out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8266.0,8273.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Good heavens.  At the very time when affirmative action was firmly in everybody’s mind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8273.0,8279.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And Carson had just sent that letter around to all the directors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8279.0,8283.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Goodness me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8283.0,8284.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, that’s the only thing that I can ever say -- it wasn’t NSF, it was this guy.  He was from Berkeley, and it was just instilled in him, and he wasn’t keeping up with the times.  But I can imagine that happened to lots of women over the years.  But they wouldn’t ever have known about it.  How would they know?  I mean, the women in the office knew because they handled the paperwork.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8284.0,8310.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s actually pretty shocking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8310.0,8315.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  It certainly couldn’t happen now, I don’t think.  Maybe down the line, it will happen again.  Who knows?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8315.0,8323.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I don’t know.  But yes, I’m sure other people experienced that because there was so little communication between women, you always thought, well, it was just me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8323.0,8340.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8340.0,8341.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e When actually it was lots of mes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8341.0,8343.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, if he hadn’t asked me those questions about my husband, I would have just thought they don’t have the money.  Yet they were going to pay my technician her full salary.  But the funny thing was, before he hung up the phone on me that day, after we had negotiated this letter of exoneration, which I think I do have here, he said to me in the most threatening voice you’ve ever heard over the telephone, he says, “Well, I hope I get to meet you someday at a meeting.  I want to see what you’re really like.”  Like I was some kind of a monster out of hell, you know.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8343.0,8384.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Hm.  Yeah, he wouldn’t have done it with a man, that’s for sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8384.0,8392.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, of course, he couldn’t possibly have done it.  But the whole reason he was doing it was anti-feminist. Anti-motherhood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8392.0,8404.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Certainly when you look at all the reports around affirmative action -- I’m not saying in Yale specifically -- but you look at stuff that you read in the New York Times and everywhere else around that time, an awful lot of people, a lot of men, were clearly very, very against it.  And indeed, I think some women were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8404.0,8430.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.  A lot of women were afraid, especially in industry. They were afraid to be allied with anything to do with AWIS, for instance because it would be detrimental, and wouldn’t put it on their CVs that they were members.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8430.0,8444.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8444.0,8444.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8444.0,8445.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e They were afraid they would lose their jobs?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8445.0,8447.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Or not even get the job if they were applying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8447.0,8449.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  Goodness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8449.0,8450.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes.  That was very common.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8450.0,8452.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/411","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And certainly I remember reading in Margaret Rossiter’s book -- you know, the two-volume book that she did on the history of women scientists in America, which was published in the mid-eighties. She clearly had interviewed quite a number of women who had been the older generation to you, who had probably taken their degrees in the twenties and thirties -- certainly before the war, as opposed to after the war -- were in tenured positions but very, very few and far between in the sciences.  And she certainly encountered women who really weren’t very comfortable at all with affirmative action because they were of the view, “Well, if I could do it, then any woman could do it; just she’s just not committed enough.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8452.0,8507.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/412","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: I know.  In fact, a lot of women were like that, not knowing what the other woman had experienced or how lucky that they were that they didn’t experience something like that in their careers. It isn’t all just you.  I mean, I had a lot of lucky breaks.   But I have another story that I’d like to tell you that is another way of discriminating against women that used to really rub me the wrong way.  As a research associate lecturer -- as I say, they used to bring through Yale all these important world-renowned figures, Nobelists, and whatnot, and of course, the faculty would take them out to dinner and discussion afterward.  And they wouldn’t include the women researchers.  Only the faculty, who were all men, with the two exceptions I’ve mentioned.  Anyway, the feminist movement was really starting to get underway in the early seventies, as you’ve noted, and Briggs and King published a very important paper that anybody in developmental biology would have known.  They were from Indiana.  I think it was King that came to give a seminar on their work.  And, of course, they took them out to dinner, and he sat down at the table, and he said, “Well, where’s Winifred Doane?”  Everybody looked at each other.  You know, he wasn’t even Drosophila, his work was in amphibian.  And they all looked at -- “Well, she’s not here.”  And he said, “Well, I’m not going to eat a bite of food until Winifred’s here.”  Believe it or not, I had already gone home, taken off my clothes, put on my bathrobe to be comfortable, and was sitting working at a table, and the phone rings, from Don Poulson:  “Winifred, you’ve got to get in here.  Our guest won’t eat dinner until you...”  (laughs) I had to get dressed, go all the way back into Yale, to the back of the club, and join them at dinner before he... Now, if that isn’t pro-feminine, I don’t know what is.  But they were so shocked.  They talked about it for days and days afterward.  (laughs) Because he’d read my papers, and they gave him ideas about his own research.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8507.0,8653.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh my goodness.  That actually brings me to something, I think, that you’d sent in an e-mail to me some time ago, and that was about the politics of Yale, and I’m quoting directly from your e-mail.  You said that the politics at Yale were “stifling.”  I wonder exactly what you meant by that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8653.0,8677.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I talked about how, you know, there were, approximately seven, six or seven, young assistant professors for every job slot that’s going to open up when the time came.  So most of the maneuvering that was done was political maneuvering. Who you knew, who you -- blah, blah, blah, and all that kind of stuff.  And some of the people who came in who were young assistant professors, you knew right from the beginning that they had an edge up over the others because of their connections and how they got there in the first place.  And sure enough, one of them ended up not only being a full professor, who eliminated this woman that biochemist that I talked to about her research, and she taught me all the biochemistry in the process.   He shared the Nobel Prize with somebody from the University of Colorado in Denver there.   He was just repeating the work these other people at the lab in Colorado. I don’t want to give his name, I don’t want to -- but everybody was embarrassed that he -- you know.  They always wanted a Nobel Prizewinner on their faculty.  Well, when this guy got it, he was so politically entangled into getting his appointment and everything else and the Nobel Prize that they were just embarrassed and would never mention it unless it was brought up by somebody else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8677.0,8775.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/415","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So the politics was very much around the tenure system?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8775.0,8779.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/416","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, it’s around everything -- everything.  Even it’s in the granting agencies.  It’s very hard to get anything objective when you’re critiquing proposals.  And that’s the other thing I learned being on the review panels at the NSF as well as on the study section, and then I was on the Ph.D. training grant committee and the undergraduate training.  I was with the NIH review system for about ten years in there.  The politics of it were just incredible.  You could just see it, left, right, and center, who was on the panel.  And the people who played it right -- now, I never did this, because I was so apolitical that I just wouldn’t do it anyway, because I didn’t think it was fair, and I didn’t think it was right.  But they would literally find out exactly who was on the committee, and somehow indirectly get their viewpoint brought around and play politics so that they would be noticed when their grant proposal came up for review.  There was just no way of avoiding the politics.  And that was the thing that was missing at ASU when I got there.  They didn’t have politics.  They were too young.  And that’s why it was, again, such a breath of fresh air.  People did what they did and were accoladed accordingly, not because of who they knew and what strings they pulled.  And it was only when I got involved with local politics that I realized that that’s politics and that’s what’s running Yale. And everybody agrees with me who knows anything about academia.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8779.0,8891.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You did start to tell me the story of the IMPACT campaign that you were very involved in to save the beach in West Haven.  It did have a knock-on effect at your work in Yale, or at least your relations in the department for a while?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8891.0,8914.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, those who knew what I was doing, they thought that was fine -- a little civic activity, OK.   Of course, it was the one time I was mentioning, when I had to appear in court on a case.  We were, as a periphery, trying to save some wetland associated with the river that went down to the waterfront.  We got away from just waterfront to wetlands, and I had to appear in court.  And the immediate reaction?  Well, through IMPACT, we were into a lot of legal litigations about referenda and defending them, and they were challenged all the way to the Supreme Court and this kind of stuff.  So I was in and out of court quite a lot.   I went to the lab one day and nobody would speak to me at all -- nobody, except the business manager down in the main office, and she was very nice.   I didn’t know what was going on.  And I got up to my lab.  Don wasn’t around at the time.  I don’t know where he was, maybe off someplace.   But nobody seemed to know what it was about, but even people I considered friends wouldn’t speak to me.  And then there was a couple of days later that Chuck came home from the ag station and told me what the rumor was, that I was suing Yale.  That’s why I was in court, they assumed.  Why else would I go to court, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=8914.0,9012.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Suing Yale because...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9012.0,9013.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Because I was a feminist, and I’m being mistreated.  Because all his friends at the ag station would say out to my face, “You know, Winifred, you’re being discriminated against.”  They’d just say it outright.  But the people on the staff up there and the administration -- mostly the administration -- they frowned on the wives of the researchers there working.  They felt that it wasn’t fair that, for instance, I should have a salary and Chuck had a salary, and then somebody else who had four kids or five kids raising with the wife home, that Chuck should get more money, regardless of whether he was good or not.  And so they would keep his salary cut back on the assumption that I would have a salary.  Of course, Yale gave me almost no salary.  They wouldn’t allow me, within the framework of their administration, to receive much of a salary.  So we both were cut back in salaries as a result.  And then the fact that I was married and didn’t have children, they frowned on that, too, because I should have been home, raising a family.  They didn’t like the idea that I was getting a Ph.D.  That was bad.  And, after this court case I mentioned, the head of the ag station, from then on, he never spoke to me or my husband again.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9013.0,9099.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/421","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Goodness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9099.0,9100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/422","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Because I was too uppity.  (laughter) And at one of their annual, Connecticut agricultural get-togethers -- oh, what did they call it?  Some sort of a fest, once a year, where they tried out all their research for the general public.   His wife, the director’s wife, was there.  She didn’t know who I was.  I knew who she was, but she’d forgotten me.  And she came over and was talking -- we were having a nice conversation.  Pretty soon, her husband started talking to me.  He came over, and he literally dragged her away.  He said, “You don’t know who you’re talking to.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9100.0,9136.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/423","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e (laughs) It would give her bad ideas?  (laughter) So you think because so much of the way science works, the grant-making and everything else, that that inevitably meant it was going to work against women at a very fundamental level?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9136.0,9163.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/424","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, now, let me put it this way.  When there’s competition, I don’t care whether you’re going to hormones, steroids, or what, everybody’s looking for an edge to get ahead of the other person, fairly or not.  Some do it fairly, some not.  And if you’re going to discriminate against a whole group of people, like half the population, what’s easier to pick on than a woman, to eliminate them from the competition?  And I think it’s just built into our whole society that women are not respected the same as men.  It’s in all the religions, practically, of the world.  Name a religion where women are really treated the same.  They’re not.  They may be given a special and, you know, an honorary position, but it’s an honorary position that keeps them in their place.  As long as they stay in their place, they’re OK.  And it happens everywhere.  I don’t know that you can ever really stop it.   Competition is competition, and when times are short of money like they’re getting to be, that’s when this comes out, and that’s why I really feel for the young ladies today, who had a pretty soft ride till now and expect to be treated equally.  They’re going to find very all too soon, now, when money gets tight, it’s going to be the women who suffer, the minorities who suffer, and just be prepared.  I don’t think you can stop it, really.  You can always sort of hedge it away or at least be aware it’s going to happen to you, and do the best you can with what you have.  But if you really love your science, you’ll find a way to get through in terms of science.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9163.0,9285.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/425","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You were saying, just there, that women, in a way, can be eliminated.  One way or another, they can be eliminated.  That makes me think again about your own last year or two at Yale and this whole business of your own application for tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9285.0,9313.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/426","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e This was not even for tenure.  They have associate professor at two levels, one without tenure.  I was coming up not even for tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9313.0,9324.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/427","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e All right.  Oh my goodness.  Well, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9324.0,9326.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/428","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That was just to even get on the ladder for tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9326.0,9327.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/429","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What strikes me about that, of course, was you became embroiled in all of that, and it was from the best of intentions, because affirmative action was now the law of the land, and --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9327.0,9342.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/430","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Was becoming.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9342.0,9342.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/431","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9342.0,9343.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/432","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And Yale had to -- well, NIH literally said that if they expected to get funding they had to do something about patching up -- doing something affirmative about women who they felt... They came up and talked to all the women.  You know, they sent a representative -- some lawyers up to speak to all the women, in all the departments, I guess, in science anyway. And this was NIH.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9343.0,9368.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/433","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e During this time did you have anything to do with the Affirmative Action Office at Yale, because it was established in ’73, I think -- ’72, ’73.  Yeah, it must have been ’72, just after the HEW Regulations. [see also, pp. 51 and 83ff.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9368.0,9383.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/434","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think it was through that office that this group from the NIH came up with lawyers to speak to us all. I don’t remember how it was set up, but I know each one of us was invited in to talk to these lawyers, and they asked us questions.  And that was very difficult to deal with, I must say.  I did not enjoy that, because it brought out feelings that I had kept pretty close to the chest, and I didn’t want to talk about them, and found them difficult to talk about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9383.0,9412.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/435","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What feelings were those?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9412.0,9413.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/436","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, when I get really angry, I want to cry, and I would try not to cry because I was so angry, you know.  So it was difficult for me to describe -- he kept asking questions that -- well, he knew what he was talking about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9413.0,9429.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/437","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e He was trying to elicit a particular response from you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9429.0,9432.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/438","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, he obviously was trying to see if the kinds of discrimination he was familiar with from a legal point of view were going on.  And I had buried all these things and didn’t think about them, and tried not to think about them, because they interfere with your work -- and your life, for that matter.  So he was bringing up things that I chose not to think about because of that.  As I say, I’m an optimist, and I tend to look on the rosy side and stay away from the other.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9432.0,9462.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/439","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And yet, if you look at the three test cases, it was Mary Clutter, Mary Helen Goldsmith, and yourself, in biology, it sort of backfired, didn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9462.0,9476.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/440","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e How?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9476.0,9477.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/441","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Mary Clutter was on the out, I mean --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9477.0,9482.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/442","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, but she developed a wonderful career on her own.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9482.0,9487.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/443","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean, if the intention was to try to get you all, somehow normalized, into the Yale system it didn’t work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9487.0,9496.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/444","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, they were trying to get us out of the system.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9496.0,9499.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/445","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Except for Mary Helen, they couldn’t, because she was...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9499.0,9500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/446","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  So that’s why I’m saying it, in a way, worked against the three of you together, because only one of you could win.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9500.0,9510.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/447","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.  Exactly.  Yeah.  And, you know, you could predict from the beginning who was going to be the winner.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9510.0,9516.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/448","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you think that that also made you somewhat reluctant to get involved in the whole process?  That you knew what the outcome might be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9516.0,9526.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/449","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, they just asked me to fill out these forms; I’d fill out forms.  You know, nothing -- it was no big deal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9526.0,9534.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/450","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9534.0,9534.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/451","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean, I wasn’t out there campaigning or anything. I was doing my research, and nobody told me at the time specifically about a lot of this, I learned after the fact.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9534.0,9551.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/452","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right, right.  So at that point, you said earlier on, I think, in the interview, that -- you told me about the presentation and also from an internal point of view, you had, as it were, more points than anybody else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9551.0,9574.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/453","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, oh, I should say that Timothy Goldsmith did sort of come to in my case, in that he offered me a three-year contract as associate professor, which I accepted, with the understanding that he would write a very strong letter for me for wherever I applied for a job.  Mm-hmm. And that’s the best I could get out of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9574.0,9596.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/454","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9596.0,9597.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/455","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And I didn’t stay the three years. I was out in two.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9597.0,9601.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/456","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And I think you also mentioned, I don’t think this morning, but at another time we were talking, that there was another woman in biology at that point who’d come in, and she had actually advised you not to hang around once all of this had been resolved?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9601.0,9620.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/457","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes.  That was Margaret Davis.  She came in from the University of Michigan, and she had been involved with that successful lawsuit that the women waged against the university – an anti-discrimination lawsuit.  And she was brought in as the token woman full professor.  But they treated her so badly that as a full professor that after a few years, she just left.  She couldn’t take it anymore.  They dumped all their teaching on her so that they could do their research, and then that interfered with her research, of course, because she was spending all her time teaching.  And committee work, you know.  As the only woman in the department, then they wanted her on all these committees.  And that happened to me when I got to ASU.  I was on so many committees because there weren’t that many women around.  And then finally, I said, “This has got to stop.  I can’t go to all these meetings.”  And they were very upset that I said that’s enough but I felt I’d done my part after a few years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9620.0,9677.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/458","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You told me, actually, a rather funny story last night, about Margaret Davis [Professor of Biology, 1973-76; Professor of Forestry, 1974-76] and the smoking pipe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9677.0,9687.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/459","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh.  (laughs) Yes.  This is after I had gotten my associate professorship. I was at a faculty meeting, and they were presenting a new organization program for people in ecology, in the department.  And they had rigged it so that Margie Davis was going to do practically all of the teaching, and she already had taken on more than anybody else.  Nobody had consulted with her about this.  And she finally got up and in words I couldn’t possibly repeat, but they were so penetrating.  She said, “Well, I don’t mind going to all your committee meetings with you, and I don’t mind teaching this course and that course and so forth and so on, but I don’t think I should do all of your teaching for you.”  And there was a professor there who had come over from the medical school, a famous biochemist, and he was obviously anti-feminine.  He was sitting next to me, and the whole time she’d talk, he was just grumbling to himself, you know.  And he had this big old pipe in his hand.  And when she said that, he got so angry, he just turned beet red, and he took the pipe out of his mouth and put it in his pocket, fully lit, (laughter) and then the smoke started coming up.  I could hardly keep from laughing because it could have been, you know, the Three Stooges. (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9687.0,9785.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/460","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So the opposition was going up in smoke?  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9785.0,9794.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/461","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e It was soon after that that she got another appointment someplace else and resigned. But she used to see me in the library and tell me one story after another, which I never wrote down, because, you know, what are you going to do?  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9794.0,9812.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/462","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You must have got, though, to the point, that, you were really quite keen, maybe, on Tim Goldsmith’s offer of a really good reference to go someplace else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9812.0,9824.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/463","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.  As soon as he made that, I started looking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9824.0,9826.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/464","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9826.0,9827.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/465","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.  And ASU, as I said, just at that time happened to be looking for someone in genetics, and they knew of me.   Although being a state university, they couldn’t actively recruit like Yale could, they made it clear that I was the one they wanted, and they had one other person, possibly, who could have done the job, but he was just going there to get himself a raise in salary.  So he went down there, and,  he was from Chapel Hill.  So I accepted the offer when they gave it to me because I just was so glad to get out of Yale.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9827.0,9874.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/466","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What happened with Chuck?  Was this a joint [decision]?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9874.0,9877.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/467","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e This is when Chuck retired from the ag station.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9877.0,9881.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/468","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So he had actually retired?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9881.0,9882.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/469","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, he took advantage of that loophole in the law about state employees that said women could retire for any reason if they had to at age 50, but men couldn’t do it until they were 55.  Somebody pointed out -- a male, I should say -- that that was discrimination against the men, and so they changed it to, OK, men can also retire at 50.  And then they decided, no, that’s too early, [but] for one year, he slipped in that little loophole and took retirement so we could leave with full retirement benefits.  And the next year, they changed it for men and women at 55, they could retire if they wanted to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9882.0,9924.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/470","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So that in a way, for the first time, left you, then, free to go --?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9924.0,9928.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/471","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I was free only because Chuck said, “The first time, it was my choice; this time it’s yours,” and went off to an international entomology meeting in Hawaii and left me to my devices.  So I went down to Arizona and looked it over, and I said, “Gee, that looks like an opportunity.”  But I have to say, it did put a terrible crimp in my research to go there. I can’t deny that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9928.0,9952.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/472","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Another woman that you mentioned once in one of our conversations was a woman called Katherine Wilson, was it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9952.0,9960.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/473","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Katherine Wilson, yes, at the NIH.  Her first assistant professorship was at Yale but she was a very astute person, and after seeing the discrimination that was going on in practice -- she couldn’t lecture to undergraduates, for one thing -- she decided that was no place for her, so she took the job down at the NIH in Washington to set up the first genetic study review panel, which was the Genetic Study Section.  And she was wonderful at that job.  She was really good.  All the great things that happened in genetic basically stemmed from her wise decisions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=9960.0,10004.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/474","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And one of her pieces of advice to you was to leave?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10004.0,10009.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/475","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e To leave as soon as I could. She asked me to join the Study Section, and no one on the faculty could believe that I would be invited to be in the Study Section.  And then when I got down there -- because they were always telling me that I was never going to get funded -- I had access to all the reviews, although I couldn’t be in the room when Yale proposals were being discussed, but I could see the results afterwards.  I never got the horrible criticism some of theirs did, and they were on the faculty, and they were objecting to me.  And I never got terrible decisions like that.  I always got good ratings.  It was an eye-opener.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10009.0,10050.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/476","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Suddenly seeing it all from the outside?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10050.0,10053.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/477","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, and I also got to meet some very, very important people.  And you see, that’s when the politics comes in.  If you’re never on those kinds of panels, you don’t get to meet these people.  And they become very important to you later on, like some of the best post-docs I got at ASU were through people who I met through the NIH on the Study Section, one or another, and they had a grad student looking for someone who worked with Drosophila, and would ask if I want to take them.  One of the best ones I had was Andy Clark.  He’s a full professor at Cornell now.  That’s the way it goes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10053.0,10088.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/478","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I haven’t really thought of it this way before, but maybe one of the ways in which affirmative action really seemed to work was that it opened up the national institutions to women, maybe rather more freely than the Ivy Leagues.  And once they were open, and therefore women had access to spheres of influence which could then --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10088.0,10114.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/479","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10114.0,10115.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/480","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- impact.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10115.0,10115.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/481","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e They always talked about empowerment.  I don’t like that phrase, because it’s so politically motivated.  But in fact, that’s what it boils down to.  Where the power lies.  Women tend to shun away from that sort of thing, and I think it’s just in our genes, our makeup, or our upbringing.  I think it’s as much in our genes as in our upbringing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10115.0,10136.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/482","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?   And coming from a geneticist, that’s an interesting thing to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10136.0,10137.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/483","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, genes don’t work in a vacuum; they work in an environment.  So the two go hand in hand together.  We’ll never get back to the years, I don’t think, back in the dim long years of long ago when women ran their -- I don’t think we’ll ever get back there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10137.0,10164.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/484","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e When it was a matriarchy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10164.0,10164.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/485","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10164.0,10165.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/486","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So you got the tenured post at ASU.    What kind of farewell did you get at Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10165.0,10184.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/487","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, (laughs) nothing really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10184.0,10187.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/488","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Because you’d been there for, what, 20 years, more?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10187.0,10191.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/489","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Twenty-one years, yeah.  No, they were glad to say goodbye and just let me sort of drift away.  And besides, I wasn’t looking for any kind -- Don’s lab group had a little party for me, and a few people from the business office came up and joined us and so forth.  And Don and his wife took Chuck and me out to dinner, and that sort of thing.  But that was about it.  And then I left, and Don was due to retire soon after, so who were they asking to organize his retirement affair at Yale but me, in Arizona?  Trying to get a new job going. I couldn’t be much help at all.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10191.0,10234.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/490","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it turned out that that’s when they changed the law about when you could force somebody in academia to retire.  You couldn’t force them to retire.  Remember when that -- oh, you weren’t in the country then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10234.0,10250.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/491","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e No, but I knew that the law changed, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10250.0,10252.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/492","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Then it was 70, and he was going to become 70, and although he had really been doing nothing in the way of research to speak of -- hadn’t published in years and years -- but he had tenure at Yale; therefore, they couldn’t get rid of him.  He was also, since he more or less started the whole developmental genetics Drosophila theme, he was the father of it, so to speak.  Once it got molecular, then it got clearly away from him, but up till then, he was the father of developmental genetics in Drosophila.  He worked out all the embryology of Drosophila and so forth and so on.  And many of the ideas about how genes and cytoplasmic elements from the genes control development.  They wanted me to prepare his retirement.  I got a hold of a couple of people there to work with me on this, and we were all set to go, and I’d gotten my plane ticket and arranged for somebody to take care of my genetics class for me so I could go.  And then they changed the law at the first of the year and took away this requirement of 70 years, and Don decided he wasn’t going to retire.  So he stayed on.  (laughs) And they were so upset at Yale because they wanted to get him off so that they would get another tenure-track.  And he didn’t leave.  But unfortunately, the following year, he had a serious car accident that really, he never recovered from.  But at that time, I couldn’t go because I was all tied up with other stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10252.0,10360.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/493","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You also said to me over breakfast this morning that there was also a parting shot, that when you left to go to your fancy job at ASU...?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10360.0,10376.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/494","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.   Art Goldstein, from what had been the botany department -- botany and zoology had merged into biology in the sixties -- he was a proponent, he was the one that was really pushing for Mary Helen.  In fact, he really played the political game, which I didn’t even know enough to play, but he got letters from all over the country, the world, in support of Mary Helen’s research.  So he had put together this big dossier in support of her.  And I just put in the names of three references, you know.  One of them happened to be a Harvard professor who was on the Study Section with me, but was nice, and -- well, I won’t go into that.  But anyway, I had good references.  So he thought of himself as being a real supporter of feminism on campus, and amongst the scientists, biologists in particular.  But the last thing he said to me when I saw him just before I left Yale was, “But Winifred, do you really think you can run your own research lab?”  Of course, I had been running my own research lab for years, which shows how much he’d even looked at my CV.  And running not only my lab but Don’s lab, too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10376.0,10456.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/495","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So did you leave with a sense that right to the very last moment, there was a culture of just –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10456.0,10463.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/496","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, they were glad –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10463.0,10463.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/497","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- putting people down?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10463.0,10464.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/498","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e -- that it had been resolved that I was leaving.  They were glad because that got rid of all the tension, and there was no problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10464.0,10471.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/499","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So what was it like going to ASU?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10471.0,10475.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/500","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, as I say, it was like a breath of fresh air.  I liked the climate right from the day I arrived.  Of course, they have you come in for job interviews in fall and spring, when it’s at its best.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10475.0,10490.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/501","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, not 104 in the shade.  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10490.0,10495.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/502","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I was treated with utmost respect by everybody, and for the first time I felt I like sort of had a real mentor and that was Kathy Church, who was the first woman in the department.  She had wonderful stories to tell me about being the first woman in the department.  See, every Friday afternoon, all the male members on the faculty, if they wanted to, could go out and have a beer together at one of the local pubs.  And of course, she wasn’t invited; she was a woman.  But she’s a wonderful person to get along with, and she ended up being chair of the department, and then on to become Associate provost because she went into administration later on.  But she had a wonderful way with people and had a lot of friends.  They would tell her what would go on at these beer things.  And that’s where all the business of the department was done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10495.0,10559.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/503","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e A bit like Mory’s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10559.0,10559.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/504","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Exactly like Mory’s.  Right, yeah.  And of course women aren’t ever involved.  So she and I decided we were going to have our own women’s group, so we’d go out and have a drink every Friday, (laughter) during the time the men were all getting together.  And she clued me in on the personalities in the department and the whole administration, and things to do, not to do.  She was really very helpful in getting me established.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10559.0,10592.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/505","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e When I first contacted you, you said that when you left Yale, you never wanted to see the place again.  Those were your words.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10592.0,10601.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/506","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yep, and I still don’t.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10601.0,10603.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/507","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You said it with such a passion and it just makes me wonder, you know, how profoundly and even in what ways your Yale experience affected you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10603.0,10616.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/508","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I guess I was pretty bitter about the way I’d been treated, and mostly because of the two-facedness of it.  People who’d be my friends on one hand but then would be just the opposite when it came to my career.  That really hurt.  The other thing was that while you’re at Yale or one of the Ivy League schools, when you send a paper off to press, they assume it’s good, and without hardly reading it, they publish it.  So I’d send off papers.  They’d practically go to print the way they were sent, without a T crossed or an I dotted.  And get to ASU -- oh, well, this isn’t the Ivy League anymore.  They would try to find everything wrong.  And I would see the same things on the review panels in Washington, whether it was NSF or NIH.  The panels would automatically, if it came from one of the big schools, assume that the work was good without really looking at it.  And so I’d spend all my time pointing out the fallacies in these things.  Well, maybe we’d better have another look at this.  But it would take an awful lot of talking to point out that, come on, this is biased for the university, which means biased towards the men.  And  that was one of the things that I’ve talked to other men who were at Yale, who I felt were just as good as some that were kept that didn’t necessarily turn out so good, and they felt just as bitter, because they didn’t feel they’d been properly treated, either.  And then once you get away from that, you don’t have Yale on your cap to say, OK, I’m better than you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10616.0,10745.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/509","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e So it’s the question of -- what was that quote you said to me?  “Better to be from Yale than at Yale?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10745.0,10755.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/510","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes, definitely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10755.0,10757.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/511","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10757.0,10757.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/512","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, for a woman, anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10757.0,10758.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/513","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, for a woman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10758.0,10760.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/514","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Winifred Doane: For a woman.  I wouldn’t say that for a man. But it does help you with the money.  That’s one of the things Kathy pointed out to me:  “Don’t tell people you’re from Yale; don’t say it was done like such-and-such at Yale.  Remember, you’re at a state university now, and things are done very differently.”  And it’s absolutely true because as I said before, they try to help the young faculty get tenure, not try to beat them down and make them leave.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10760.0,10792.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/515","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you think the presumption is if you hired somebody who was good enough at that level, then the presumption was that they would be tenured if they if they did all of the things they’re supposed to do?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10792.0,10800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/516","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10800.0,10801.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/517","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10801.0,10802.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/518","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And if not, then an older faculty member might help them out and show them what they needed to do.  And that’s the way ASU is pretty much, still.  In fact, that’s one of the things the emeritus colleges do. We have a mentoring section now, a center where we will mentor young faculty to help them bridge the gap. But do you think that would ever happen at Yale?  I don’t think so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10802.0,10829.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/519","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it would be interesting to see now that they’ve changed the tenure system -- because they changed it --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10829.0,10833.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/520","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e What is it now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10833.0,10834.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/521","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e -- exactly a year ago?  Well, it’s more in line now with what happens in the rest of the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10834.0,10838.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/522","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?  They don’t have that long associate professor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10838.0,10841.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/523","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e The assumption is now that if you’re appointed --  see if I get this right --  is that if you make the cut and are appointed as an assistant, associate professor, then if you do all the right things and publish and do all the things that a faculty member is supposed to do, that you will get tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10841.0,10866.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/524","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, that’s the way it is at most places.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10866.0,10868.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/525","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, it is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10868.0,10869.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/526","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e When you’re named associate professor you get tenure?   Yale had the double system and that long, long period up to tenure could last forever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10869.0,10881.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/527","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  I mean, at least up to ten years, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10881.0,10884.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/528","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yeah, it was a long time.  So it will be interesting to see how it’s going to work its way out.   One of the reasons, I was told, why Yale really seriously thought about changing the system and to make it more in line with everywhere else was that there was a perception, apparently, that women in particular were not applying to jobs at Yale because they didn’t think it was going to serve them very well because they thought, “Well, if I stay here seven or eight years, well, I’ll get the Yale name and all of that, but I won’t have a job at the end of it. So there seems to be a groundswell that was arguing that actually the Yale tenure system was working ultimately against the university and its values.  So that it was changed -- was it last May?  The end of the last academic year.  So it will be interesting to see what happens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10884.0,10941.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/529","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Actually, now you're talking about tenure reminds me.  When I went to ASU, although they offered me a full professorship, there was a state regulation regarding all three universities in the state that even if you came in as a full professor, you didn’t necessarily have tenure.  You had to be reviewed after two years.  Well, I didn’t doubt for a minute that it’d go through.  It didn’t bother me. But that would keep some people from going there and so finally, they got rid of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10941.0,10971.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/530","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. What did you take away from your experience at Yale, which, looking back, influenced how you conducted your academic life after you left Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10971.0,10989.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/531","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I certainly learned at Yale the importance of knowing the literature and having access to the literature.  And that was one of the things I missed when I got to ASU; they didn’t have as good a library.  Of course, Yale’s got one of the best in the world.  And I loved to go down to the Yale library and make use of it.  It was so easy.   But now, you don’t have to worry about that because with computers, you can access all the journals anyway.   I learned what graduate seminars ought to be like, and the importance of bringing in top-notch researchers for graduate education, so they see these people and can talk to them and make the connections, which maybe, you know, later in life serve them somehow or other.  Because it is still the old grapevine, and so if you don’t bring those people to campus, how are the grad students ever going to meet them to make use of it.  And that’s lost in the shuffle, although our current president is doing a lot to change that.  Still got a long way to go and [in addition] all these cutbacks right now.  It’s really sad what’s happening in all education in Arizona, and across the country, I guess.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=10989.0,11080.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/532","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Did it help form any views about how women should relate to other women, professionally, in the academy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11080.0,11094.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/533","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e In the -- what, the National Academy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11094.0,11098.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/534","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I’m talking about academia generally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11098.0,11101.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/535","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yes, I did finally found the chapter for AWIS there [at ASU].  I didn’t have time to do much about it.  And I didn’t think there was much chance, because there were so few women around on the faculty.  You need women on faculty to get that going.  It’s not feasible.  And right now, the chapter’s zooming ahead, which I’m very glad to see because we really went through the doldrums there for a while, but I kept it going.  And now it’s building up again.   Women from other labs that were predominantly male or all-male would come down to my lab just for the camaraderie of talking to the women in my lab and to me too.  And I remember one of them who did a Ph.D. in -- she was an ecologist. She got into doing DNA work, and so she needed a lab where she could do it in, so she came down and did it in my lab.  And she was saying that it was the first time that she had experienced -- in our department, mind you -- the kind of respect that she had hoped to get as a graduate student doing research.  And she wasn’t getting that in her own lab.  Of course, her lab, the guy was one of those who went out for the beer every Friday, you know.  So there were those things.  And I also picked up a graduate student who none of the men would take.  She was a woman, and they decided they didn’t want her.  She was in the Ph.D. program, and the graduate student advisor suggested that maybe she should settle for a master’s, and she ended up doing a master’s in my lab.  She got very bitter, because she really wanted a Ph.D.  And she went to Hawaii from there.  She worked on the skinny gene, as a matter of fact.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11101.0,11227.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/536","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I wish I could contact her now -- I don’t know where she is -- and tell her, “Well, look at this.” [The work on adipose, the “skinny” gene]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11227.0,11232.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/537","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, maybe she knows.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11232.0,11234.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/538","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I doubt it because she really didn’t want to be working on Drosophila.  She wanted to work on animals.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11234.0,11240.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/539","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  During your -- was it 25 years at ASU?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11240.0,11245.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/540","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e 20 -- well, let’s see.  Twenty-one years at ASU. 21 at Yale, 21 at ASU but on the faculty at ASU.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11245.0,11256.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/541","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e During -- that’s the second half of your career -- at ASU, were you involved in any innovations apart from setting up the chapter of AWIS that were designed to empower or enable women in science?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11256.0,11275.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/542","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I got involved with the Faculty Women’s Association, and we did work when I was active in that, setting up daycare facilities for faculty.  I kind of lost touch with that.   Well, when I retired, they sort of -- even though I kept sending them money, they sort of eliminated me like I was no longer around.  So I lost touch with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11275.0,11303.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/543","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e We touched on this -- we’re almost at the end.  I think we’re all beginning to flag a bit.  (laughter) It would be nice to have you finish up with maybe a couple of comments from you on women in science today, because many, many things have improved for women since you were trying to make your way as a geneticist.  And this question was suggested to me by somebody else, another scientist that I interviewed, and she said that, again, coming back to your notion of opportunity, that the way cell biology in particular has developed over the last generation that it created opportunities maybe for women to get into a new area where the rules, in a way, hadn’t been written, the same way as with the old sciences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11303.0,11364.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/544","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11364.0,11365.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/545","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e She felt that that was an opportunity that she grabbed and other women, she thinks, probably, in their own developing fields, also grabbed.  And I wondered if you felt that that was something that you could relate to?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11365.0,11380.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/546","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, definitely.  Any time I’d go to a cell biology meeting -- I was a member of that association, too -- it’s reassuring when you see a lot of other women who are still doing their research, some on faculty lines, some research associates.  But there is a certain camaraderie and a feeling of support behind you; it isn’t just you out there all by yourself.  And I think that’s very important, and I think that’s where AWIS is important.  And AWIS isn’t just restricted to women -- it’s for women -- and one of our faculty members is a member of AWIS, and he was chair at the time I retired, and he’s still a member.  And he’s been at the NSF.  He’s been, I found out, first one of the directors of the ecology program, and then up a little higher.  He’s coming back to ASU this fall.  I really want to talk to him about his experiences there.  He was very, very supportive of me.  And he told me when I retired, he said, “Winifred, as long as I’m chair, and if you want to keep your lab going, you have my word you will have it.”  Well, (laughs) as it turned out, he then went to the NSF and is no longer chair.  But I still have some of this space because it’s in an old building now, and they don’t have the money to renovate, so I haven’t cleaned out a lot of the stuff, all my books and stuff.  But after my husband died, both my sisters and I went through that really personal traumatic period about two years away.  I just couldn’t get back into it.  (laughs) And besides, I don’t think I’d ever get a grant again at my age.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11380.0,11496.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/547","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, no, that might be a difficulty.  (laughter) Though there is ageism, I suppose.   Do you think also -- this is again something that you mentioned earlier on in the interview, that there is so much more emphasis now on collaboration and collaborative cross-disciplinary working in the sciences, especially when you’re looking for grants?  Do you think that has helped woman’s progress in science?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11496.0,11523.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/548","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it definitely has if you find a woman who knows how to cherry-pick the people to associate with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11523.0,11533.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/549","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11533.0,11534.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/550","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But that’s politics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11534.0,11534.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/551","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11534.0,11536.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/552","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e And I know one such woman who left ASU, and now she’s over in San Diego. But she was kind of an unscrupulous person.  In fact, she left behind a lawsuit that Yale still hasn’t settled with the Indian tribes of the state, because of her shady dealings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11536.0,11561.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/553","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh dear.  (laughter)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11561.0,11563.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/554","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e But I was going to say, one of the things I was telling you about Jim Collins, who was our chair and then joined AWIS.   He felt he learned a lot from me about how to succeed, because he was a young faculty member when I got there.  Now, I didn’t think I taught anybody anything, but he claimed I gave him the key to success.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11563.0,11587.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/555","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Which was?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11587.0,11588.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/556","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Which was to delegate authority within your lab and bring in the young people to me to do their research projects, which is, of course, wonderful for them and for the department and so forth.  You don’t get much out of undergraduates in publishable material, but it helps give an atmosphere to the lab.  And then you bring in graduate students, and they more or less control the undergraduates.  And then you bring in post-docs.  When you’re not there, they supervise the graduate students.  And so you build up this tier of things, and which is what the big labs all do.  And I hadn’t realized I was doing it, but that’s the way it was done at Yale, and I just automatically fell into that.  And when he saw how well it worked, that’s what he decided was the way to go, because we couldn’t necessarily get the best graduate students in genetics because we didn’t have enough molecular biochemical people around to bring them in, but you could always bring in post-docs who had that training someplace else and would love to come to Arizona, right?  (laughs) And I could finance them, and they could enjoy the state while they were there.  And so that worked out very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11588.0,11671.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/557","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you think, in the modern university, that women are becoming more successful, either because having now it’s almost like economies of scale, that there are enough women now to transform the institution, or is it that just simply the women that are now in universities are a success because they’ve learned to play the system?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11671.0,11703.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/558","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, I think if I were a young person now I know I would have to play the system to succeed.  But I was sort of that in-between phase when things weren’t quite so expensive to run a research lab, and it was just beginning to go up into the millions of dollars, and I was sort of somewhere in between.  Although over the time, of course I had more -- many more than a million dollars in my lab.  But I’ll tell you one thing.  It’s hard to put it into words because just like I can talk to you freely and I don’t have any trouble, there are some women you cannot talk to that way.  And men are very super-sensitive to women who grate against them.  You know what I’m trying to say?  They’re just they’re offended by them.  And I remember one of the graduate students from Yale who went out to Oregon, and he said to me one time in a meeting, he said he was trying to be helpful for women, but he said, “You know, Winifred, I don’t have any trouble talking with you.”  We were buddies, kind of.  He says, “But I’ve hardly met a single woman since I left here that I can really talk to.  They’re so bent on getting power, power, power, that they’ve lost the humanity in a way, almost,” and they weren’t treating the men very well.  With hostility, as if that’s the same as power.  That’s not the way you treat anybody, and I don’t care if it’s a man or a woman.  They resent it.  And I think too many women got this idea of having power meant being hostile, and that’s one thing that is going to kill them if they continue along that line.  You have to be able to relate to people.  And if you put up barriers between you, it’s not to your own good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11703.0,11832.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/559","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e At least possibly not in the long term, anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11832.0,11836.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/560","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11836.0,11837.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/561","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And for others as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11837.0,11838.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/562","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s right.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11838.0,11839.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/563","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e But when I think of an institution like Yale, and I think more and more increasingly, every university, they’re based on the idea of a meritocracy, where individualism is the big thing.  You know, you have to get on with your research; you have to publish this; you have to do this; you have to do that.   That sense of the individual -- an individual getting on – can that run counter to notions of institutional ideals, which is about nurturing.   This seems to me sometimes a bit of a misfit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11839.0,11887.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/564","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e OK.  And I have to say that at ASU, they completely reversed their attitude now when someone comes up for tenure and you become an associate professor.  It used to be when they’d look at their publications, they’d want to see that person’s name first or only on the publication, or was it done by them or somebody else.  They wanted to know the individual was doing the research, which was fine in those days.  Now, they look for just the opposite.  How much collaboration are they doing with other people?  How many other people are on that paper?  Spreading out beyond the university, not just within the university.  And that’s become the code word now for success.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11887.0,11933.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/565","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11933.0,11934.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/566","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e That’s a change in attitude in funding agencies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11934.0,11939.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/567","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  Is that a change for the better, in your view?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11939.0,11943.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/568","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it’s a change of necessity, based on the high-tech kind of work that goes on, that no one person can know it all.  Yeah, you need expertise in different areas if you’re going to pull it together, make advances.  You can’t just keep going on these little pathways; you got to bring them together, ultimately, to make advances.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11943.0,11976.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/569","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e And also, I suppose, it also means, being connected to different spheres of influence, which increases the sphere of influence in its totality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11976.0,11985.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/570","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, yes.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11985.0,11990.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/571","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e In February of this year, you were honored by AWIS for your -- and I quote from the document -- “commitment to the achievement of equity for women in science.”   What kind of work have you done that may have led AWIS to honor you in this way?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=11990.0,12020.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/572","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, of course, working to set up the chapter -- local chapter, central Arizona chapter of AWIS -- was one thing.  I’ve always had women in my laboratory, of course, and they are very loyal.  They celebrate my birthday every year, those that are still left around, and some that come back for a visit.  So we always have a big birthday party for me.  (laughs) It’s always nice to keep in touch of them, regardless of where they’ve gone, and regardless of whether they got a graduate degree -- just people who worked in the lab, also, they come to these parties.  And they were the ones who started by getting this award for me from the YWCA, for the woman of the year in --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12020.0,12070.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/573","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e In 2000?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12070.0,12071.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/574","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e In 2000.  That came from this group that I’m talking about.  I didn’t know anything about it until they phoned me up.  And that led, from there, into the department realizing, “Well, maybe we should have done more for Winifred when she retired,” which they didn’t.  And then, I don’t know how this came about.  Jane -- oh, I know.  I recommended -- yes, I recommended Jane Maienschein for one of these awards because she, I thought, has done wonderful things.  And she’s done wonderful things for women on campus.  She’s really one of those people that is clearly out for the other person, not herself -- although it helps her in the process, but even so, she’s good.  And I felt she certainly was worthy of one of these awards, so I recommended her.  And then the following year I got her to join the chapter first and then we got Jim Collins to join the chapter.  And we felt, “Ooh, it would be nice for a man to have one of these,” so we recommended him.  And they kept saying, “Well, we’ve got to get Winifred the award, too.”  So they finally got around, (laughs) in this year, to putting my name in.  (laughs) But they were all happy about it, and it’s a whole bunch of new people that I didn’t know then, so the chapter’s happy about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12071.0,12161.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/575","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What do you think, given that women have come a fairly long way in science since the time that you started, what do you think still needs to be done to make it genuinely equitable, in terms of men and women?  What do you think is the biggest impediment still to women in the sciences?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12161.0,12187.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/576","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well part of it is the way that women are brought up.  They’re expected to expect less.  They don’t demand the same salary; they don’t demand the same things, the way a lab is set up, before they go into it.  And it’s just the way you’re supposed to step back and let a man go first, right?  And that spills right over into their careers.  That’s one thing.  Not all women are like that, though.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12187.0,12215.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/577","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you think that applies to young women today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12215.0,12218.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/578","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e A lot of them, yes, still.  They’re very uncertain about whether this is a career for them. They’re uncertain.  I don’t feel many of them have the same sort of commitment I had.   I don’t know how unusual I was, because you don’t know how many good women got lost by the wayside because of the prejudice against them, but certainly lots did.   One thing that the people who -- the students or lab people -- they always looked on me as a role model, and I think that is very important, to have a role model and to see a woman who is successful.  Now, I didn’t know Margie Davis well, but she certainly could have been a role model for me.  At least I could see, yeah, somebody has made it.  And although I don’t think I benefited from mentoring much, I have come around to thinking that that is very important.  And I do try to help in mentoring young people now who come to me.  A lot of people come to me, both men and women, for my ideas, and they always have, even when I was at Yale, and have tea together and yak-yak-yak and so forth.  So every little bit of that counts, and if it’s a woman in there, not just all men, there’s your role model.  So it all works out in the end.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12218.0,12317.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/579","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e I suppose some might argue that women today maybe have a sense of entitlement that your generation didn’t have, because --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12317.0,12328.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/580","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, we certainly didn’t have a sense of entitlement. Just the opposite.  It was like the glass ceiling, basically the same idea.   When I see them at ASU at these AWIS meetings, they’re all very nervous about getting a job, and whether they should stay on, and -- they’re all worried about having families, or getting married, or if they are married, having a family, and whether there’ll even be any jobs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12328.0,12358.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/581","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Which is a big consideration right at this moment, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12358.0,12360.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/582","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e For both the men and the women.  Yeah, they’re all worried.  And I keep telling them, “Listen, don’t think because women have been getting jobs in academia or industry in science that it’s [still] going to be there.  Just assume that the minute there’s fewer dollars around, women are going to go by the wayside.  So you stay in there and don’t give up just because something happens.  You got to stay in there and be ready to go with the first chance you have, and that’s where opportunity comes in.”  It comes in awful little batches.  You never know where it’s going to show up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12360.0,12399.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/583","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e You have to be alive to it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12399.0,12401.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/584","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e You have to be not only alive to it but willing to accept it, even though it isn’t maybe the very top, but it could lead you up the ladder at least another step.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12401.0,12412.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/585","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e What do you think your greatest achievement in your professional life was?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12412.0,12419.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/586","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I’ve done a lot of things, but this skinny gene that I worked on as a graduate student, I always thought that that was a really important mutant to have discovered, and as it turns out, it was.  But it was way ahead of its time.  There was no way you could approach it back then.  It wasn’t until fairly recently that we could molecularly identify the gene, which I did help do, and the cloning paper and sequencing.  Once you knew what the protein was, then you could go on to figure out the function -- it turns out it’s a very important gene, all the way up the phylogenetic tree to humans.  So I always felt, because of its various side effects, its effect on physiology and biochemistry of the fruit fly, that it was a good candidate for type 2 diabetes as well as obesity, and it looks like that indeed might be the case.  So yeah, that’s an important discovery.  And I was very glad that the people in Texas recognized me the way they did.  They were very gracious.  But drosophilists tend to be that way.   I don’t think, when you get beyond drosophilists, they’re quite that generous.  But also my work on the AMY genes is important.   It was a model system to start looking at gene regulation in higher organisms, and what it was was showing tissue, specific expression of a gene -- this was from alpha-amylase in the gut -- so let’s say here as opposed to here as opposed to here -- genetic control over that at a certain time in development, certain stage.  The ideas developed around that eventually led into better systems to work with.  But at least the idea got set, and so when better systems came along to work with, that’s what’s important.  Those are the two biggest things I did.  Well, I did a lot of little things in between, but I think those are the two major contributions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12419.0,12563.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/587","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e In your retirement, you’ve taken up with the Emeritus College at ASU, and that, leads me really to a kind of final thought, is that most of us are living much longer and living more active lives, and you’re proof of that.   It just makes me wonder, too, about the traditional kind of constrictions on a woman’s career, which were often around,  doing your Ph.D. and your post-doc and trying to get your first job, was also the main child-bearing years, and how difficult that is to manage.  I just wondered, the fact that we are living longer, and we can live active, productive lives, intellectual and professional lives, much longer than the allotted 67 years when we have to retire, or whatever it is.  I just wonder if that is something that hasn’t been factored into how we think about our working lives, especially our working lives as women?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12563.0,12638.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/588","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, one of my mottoes that I always would relate to my female graduate students is that statistics show that you’re going to live longer than men, so you may lose out in your early years, but you can make it up later on.  And that’s what I always tell them.  And it’s true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12638.0,12657.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/589","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Even in sciences?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12657.0,12658.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/590","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eWinifred Doane:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, whatever.  I mean, you don’t have to stay in one field.  People do switch around.  Like I’ve switched over now to something completely different.  And I don’t want to go back to science; I’m interested in writing now, creative writing, and I’m just as happy with doing that as I was when I was doing science and writing scientific papers, which are not as much fun to write at all.  (laughter) So there are lots of opportunities in life, and when you’re in retirement, you’re free to do whatever you want.  Yeah, and sure, I could go back and do some research, but I’m off on another track now. (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12658.0,12697.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/591","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eFlorence Minnis:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah.  Well, that’s a great note on which to end.  Thank you very much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12697.0,12702.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/592","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"END OF INTERVIEW","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264#t=12702.0,12706.71674"}]},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48957/file/122264/transcript/49563/annotation/593","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/049/563/original/transcript_1693961873.txt?1723900095","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/049/563/original/transcript_1693961873.txt?1723900095"}]}]}]}