{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/gh9b56dx64/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Quilligan, Maureen, 2007 April 10"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Quilligan, Maureen, 2007 April 10. Oral Histories Documenting Yale University Women (RU 1051). Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library.\n\n https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/resources/2559."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/801924"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["mssa.ru.1051 (EAD ID)","RU 1051 (Call Number)","ru_1051_2012-a-051_Quilligan_Maureen.mp3 (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2007 April 10 (Creation)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["The materials are open for research. (Accessrestrict)","Maureen Quilligan was born August 16, 1944, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and brought up in Los Angeles where her father was a pediatrician.  She took her B.A. and M.A. at the University of California, Berkeley (1965 and 1967 respectively).  She earned her Ph.D. from Harvard University in 1973. She was Assistant Professor of English at Yale University from 1973 to 1978, then Associate Professor from 1978 to 1983, after which she taught at the University of Pennsylvania, where she was Acting Director of Women’s Studies 1986-1987.   In 2000 she was appointed the R. Florence Brinkley Professor of English and Professor of Women's Studies Program at Duke University.  She was Chair of English there from 2000-2005. \n\nShe is the author of four books: The Language of Allegory (Cornell U.P., 1979), Milton’s Spenser: the Politics of Reading (Cornell U.P., 1983), The Allegory of Female Authority: Christine de Pizan’s Cité des Dames (Cornell U.P., 1991), and Incest and Agency in Elizabeth’s England (University of Pennsylvania P., 2005).  In addition to publishing many articles on Renaissance writing and culture, she has co-edited several volumes of essays including Rewriting the Renaissance: the Discourses of Sexual Difference in Early Modern Europe (University of Chicago Press, 1986), Subject and Object in Renaissance Culture (Cambridge U.P., 1996) and Rereading the Black Legend: the Discourses of Religious and Racial Difference in the Renaissance Empires (University of Chicago Press, 2007).\n\nShe has won several teaching awards including the Sidonie Clauss Prize for Teaching in the Humanities at Yale (1983). (Bioghist)","Maureen Quilligan briefly discusses her upbringing but talks at length about her intellectually and politically formative student years at U.C. Berkeley during the 1960s.  She discusses the reasons she chose Harvard for her doctoral studies, her involvement in Harvard’s Graduate Women’s Organization, and pays tribute to the medievalist Morton Bloomfield, her supervisor, for his mentorship and sensitivities to gender issues.  She details the circumstances surrounding her appointment at Yale, the excitement and challenges of her first job, and how she first began to focus on gender in her teaching and scholarship.  Gender relations within the Yale Department of English are discussed extensively, particularly how they reflected departmental and institutional culture.  She talks about the junior/senior faculty divide at Yale, the university’s tenure process and how she responded to the competitive pressures of its intellectual community. An account is given of the first conference held at Yale in 1982 on gender in the Renaissance, organized by Nancy Vickers, Maureen Quilligan and her Yale colleague, Margaret Ferguson, and its impact on Renaissance studies at Yale and beyond. She recalls women in the English Department, including Marie Borroff, who was its first tenured woman and Patricia Spacks who was the first female Chair of the department, and reflects at length on the difficulties, including her own, of being a woman in academia.  Quilligan also talks about the challenges of teaching at Yale in the 1970s, especially the challenge of shaping and implementing protocols in the newly coeducational environment.   She speaks of her involvement at Yale in the campaign for affirmative action and the establishment of Women’s Studies and, more generally, working at an institutional level to introduce gender into the curriculum and its importance as a catalyst to institutional change.  She also comments on specific documents in the Yale University Archives to which she contributed during her time at Yale.  The interview concludes with her thoughts on the current position of women in the academy, particularly in the context of the so-called “culture wars,” and the role of the humanities in the public sphere. (Scope and Content Note)","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;8d6fcf03-e914-4a32-b5aa-dc96e26ca4b5 (Other Finding Aid Note)","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software. (Processinfo)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["The materials are open for research.","Maureen Quilligan was born August 16, 1944, in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and brought up in Los Angeles where her father was a pediatrician.  She took her B.A. and M.A. at the University of California, Berkeley (1965 and 1967 respectively).  She earned her Ph.D. from Harvard University in 1973. She was Assistant Professor of English at Yale University from 1973 to 1978, then Associate Professor from 1978 to 1983, after which she taught at the University of Pennsylvania, where she was Acting Director of Women’s Studies 1986-1987.   In 2000 she was appointed the R. Florence Brinkley Professor of English and Professor of Women's Studies Program at Duke University.  She was Chair of English there from 2000-2005. \n\nShe is the author of four books: \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eThe Language of Allegory\u003c/title\u003e (Cornell U.P., 1979), \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eMilton’s Spenser: the Politics of Reading\u003c/title\u003e (Cornell U.P., 1983), \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eThe Allegory of Female Authority: Christine de Pizan’s Cité des Dames\u003c/title\u003e (Cornell U.P., 1991), and \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eIncest and Agency in Elizabeth’s England\u003c/title\u003e (University of Pennsylvania P., 2005).  In addition to publishing many articles on Renaissance writing and culture, she has co-edited several volumes of essays including \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eRewriting the Renaissance: the Discourses of Sexual Difference in Early Modern Europe\u003c/title\u003e (University of Chicago Press, 1986), \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eSubject and Object in Renaissance Culture\u003c/title\u003e (Cambridge U.P., 1996) and \u003ctitle render=\"italic\"\u003eRereading the Black Legend: the Discourses of Religious and Racial Difference in the Renaissance Empires\u003c/title\u003e (University of Chicago Press, 2007).\n\nShe has won several teaching awards including the Sidonie Clauss Prize for Teaching in the Humanities at Yale (1983).","Maureen Quilligan briefly discusses her upbringing but talks at length about her intellectually and politically formative student years at U.C. Berkeley during the 1960s.  She discusses the reasons she chose Harvard for her doctoral studies, her involvement in Harvard’s Graduate Women’s Organization, and pays tribute to the medievalist Morton Bloomfield, her supervisor, for his mentorship and sensitivities to gender issues.  She details the circumstances surrounding her appointment at Yale, the excitement and challenges of her first job, and how she first began to focus on gender in her teaching and scholarship.  Gender relations within the Yale Department of English are discussed extensively, particularly how they reflected departmental and institutional culture.  She talks about the junior/senior faculty divide at Yale, the university’s tenure process and how she responded to the competitive pressures of its intellectual community. An account is given of the first conference held at Yale in 1982 on gender in the Renaissance, organized by Nancy Vickers, Maureen Quilligan and her Yale colleague, Margaret Ferguson, and its impact on Renaissance studies at Yale and beyond. She recalls women in the English Department, including Marie Borroff, who was its first tenured woman and Patricia Spacks who was the first female Chair of the department, and reflects at length on the difficulties, including her own, of being a woman in academia.  Quilligan also talks about the challenges of teaching at Yale in the 1970s, especially the challenge of shaping and implementing protocols in the newly coeducational environment.   She speaks of her involvement at Yale in the campaign for affirmative action and the establishment of Women’s Studies and, more generally, working at an institutional level to introduce gender into the curriculum and its importance as a catalyst to institutional change.  She also comments on specific documents in the Yale University Archives to which she contributed during her time at Yale.  The interview concludes with her thoughts on the current position of women in the academy, particularly in the context of the so-called “culture wars,” and the role of the humanities in the public sphere.","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u00268d6fcf03-e914-4a32-b5aa-dc96e26ca4b5","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20210826-32762-nbpdu5.mpga"]},"duration":6818.71674,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-yalemssa.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/122/236/original/open-uri20210826-32762-nbpdu5.mpga?1629982317","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":6818.71674,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ru_1051_2012-a-051_quilligan_maureen_transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Well it's looks as if it's recording, which is good.  So can I just mark it?  It's Maureen Quilligan, and the interviewer is Florence Minus, if you can hear her, and we're at Duke University on October 30, 2007.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=0.42,21.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Good.  Well, you've asked me to say something about my background.  I did do my undergraduate work at the University of California at Berkeley in the 60s.  I do remember one of the most wonderful moments of my life, which is quite I guess imprinted on me as to what a university should be, was when the students had gone out on strike during the free speech movement, and the 800 students had been arrested and carried bodily out of the Sproul Hall.  So I had seen my roommate be carried out by a big, burly policeman.  I had decided not to go in and sit in myself because Joan Baez had explained that you have to do it with peace in your heart, and you had to be a pacifist about it.  I was a fiery person that knew I couldn't if you know, one of those burly policemen had laid his hand on me, I wouldn't have been able to go limp, because I was not a pacifist at heart.  So I went home and came back the next day and went on strike.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=21.36,90.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The moment I remember was when there were 20,000 students standing around the University of California at Berkeley, at Sather Gate Plaza, waiting for the faculty to vote, whether or not they were going to support the student strike.  I don't think it was a roll call, but I think they did count out loud.  We were standing around, the faculty was meeting in Wheeler Auditorium, and they were counting the votes.  When it was clear it was going to be a majority of the faculty was going to support us in our strike, this huge roar of the students went up around the whole university.  I can see the sky and the mountains and the Campanile and Sather Gate, to this awesome moment, and that's what I thought academic life was all about.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=91.03,141.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So that's when you made your choice?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=141.48,142.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, it was very interesting.  The class I was striking, that I did not go to when I found out that the students were being arrested, and then I went in and saw my roommate be carried out, and then struck, was Stanley Fish's Milton class.  I said, well Milton would have gone on strike, so I'll go on strike.  Stanley Fish did say, he was there teaching the class because he was required to do that as part of his duties of professor, because they had not yet voted to support the strike.  He asked the students why they were there.  Well, I wasn't there because I figured Milton wouldn't be.  I thought that one read one's literature and one made ethical and political decisions that day, and they fully informed your choices.  So I thought it was all one whole pieces.  And I think very much, that that particular moment in my life was probably one of the reasons why I took the job here at Duke University, which was to try to save the English Department that Stanley Fish had created.  He'd taken a fine, you know, sort of regional department and turned it into a premiere department, and then they had said they wanted someone to come in and help put the place back together again.  It was sort of a no-brainer for me.  It was hard to leave the university because I was very, very happy and there was a fabulous renaissance group, but it was that moment of what, not that Stanley Fish himself ever really understood.  We disagreed about what that moment was in the history of American academia, but he was a great undergraduate teacher.  He built a fine department.  We were doing what we were supposed to be doing even if we didn't agree, and that's one of the reasons why I thought I would come here.  So that was a very compelling moment.  It was funny, because I went off to Harvard and --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=142.93,271.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: When you were at Berkeley as an undergraduate on an MA, was there any sense that this activism also included feminism, or did that come later?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=271.69,286.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: That came later.  Yeah, that came much later, thank you.  Good question.  No, it didn't.  Some professor once said to me, and I can't even remember who said it, trying to be nice, at Berkeley, said -- it wasn't Fish, although he did say some rather strange things.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=286.21,315.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But he did say to me at one point, I hope you won't be offended Ms. Quilligan, we were all on last names.  It was very polite and formal in those days.  Now I hope Ms. Quilligan, when I first knew I was going to have this job, coming out to what David Lodge called Euphoria U -- he didn't say that, he said the University of California at Berkeley -- I was in New Haven and I had an idea of what the typical California co-ed would look like, and I hope you won't be offended but you were a she.  Now the very funny thing about this story is that my friend was sitting in the back and she said, \"Oh you are so wrong.\"  Now had she stopped there it would have been all right, but then she said, \"The girl sitting right next to her is.\"  (laughs)  And indeed at one point, this very, very beautiful sorority girl, who happened to have brown hair at the beginning of the term, came in with this gorgeous, perfect blonde coif, and she really did come into her own at that particular point.  It was, we all knew what we were talking about, alas.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=315.89,372.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So, were you brought up in Connecticut?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=372.4,374.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, no, no.  I was brought up in Southern California, in Los Angeles.  So I'm a typical valley girl.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=374.89,379.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And your family, was there academic --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=379.94,383.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My dad was a professor of pediatrics, so he yeah, was a nice middle class, academic oaf.  He didn't practice as a doctor.  He was a professor and a researcher about all of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=383.1,394.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And what about your mother?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=394.83,395.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My mother was a homemaker, and then went and got her real estate license, things like that.  So it was a nice, sort of Southern California -- I was very happy to get out of Southern California.  I'm horrified my daughter is there.  She lives in Los Angeles right now and works for Walt Disney.  I can never escape.  (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=395.54,418.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Well, I think that's where we're all ending up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=418.42,421.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: In a Walt Disney cartoon somewhere.  She's very happy and she's very smart, and she actually went to Yale, and she's with a guy whom she met at Yale.  So I guess they're OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=421.85,431.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Was there an expectation for you as a girl, that you should succeed academically when you were at home?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=431.92,439.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: There were four girls, and I was the most like my father.  I had wanted to be pre-med and do doctoring, and he said, if you go to a medical school, I will not support you.  If you go to graduate school I'll help.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=439.18,451.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Why was he so against you going to medical school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=451.96,453.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Because he'd seen too many women doctors not use their educations, because they stopped and went home and had a family.  He thought, and he was probably right, that it was easier to coordinate a college professorship, rather than going through the whole medical school stuff, you know internship.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=453.61,475.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: When you were at Berkeley, were the women graduate students taken as seriously as the men, in terms of ultimate career and profession?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=475.46,487.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I had one wonderful woman professor, Adrienne Koch, who taught a special junior seminar for advanced humanities kids.  I was the only girl in the class, and she was the only professor I had.  That was an interesting moment, to be the two women in the class.  I remember she had us over to dinner, a bunch of undergraduates at the University of California at Berkeley.  I walked in the door and her husband said, \"Where are the other young women?\"  At that point, we all sort of looked around.  We'd forgotten that I was the only girl in the class.  That's what I was going to say, is another professor said to me Maureen you know, \"Ms. Quilligan, you don't seem to know you're a woman.\"  I remember how perplexing that comment was.  I also had a fabulous TA, a woman TA, and so I had two very good role models.  There were women in the University of California faculty who were eminent women; Dorothy Metlitsky Finkelstein.  I know these names right?  Ooh, I'm just blanking on the other one.  There was another very important woman of that same era.  I had it but it's gone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=488.57,573.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It will come back.  So there were role models around?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=573.28,577.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, there were role models around.  There was Adrienne Koch, there was Dorothy Malitsky, there was hmm hmm hmm hmm, she's a poet, a very important woman.  They were very eminent.  They were fewer, but they were taken just as seriously.  If you wanted to take yourself seriously, you would be taken seriously.  I married someone that I met, actually in Stanley Fish's class, and we had a lot of trouble.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=577.06,604.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The trouble we had was the trouble of my career needing to take second place to his, and my resentments of that, and the distress we had in trying to negotiate my very deep and profound commitments to my career and my success at it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=604.29,627.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So this would have been in the late ‘60s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=627.34,628.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: In the late ‘60s, right, exactly.  '62 to '68.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=628.51,633.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So really, there's still that feeling of the ‘50s maybe in America, that women had to do priority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=634.8,646.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I first thought well gee, I'll go on and get an MA, and I'll teach at a junior college.  You know, it was sort of that sort of thing.  Then, when I got my masters, I had an oral, and I was offered a fellowship on the basis of that, to do PhD work at Berkeley.  I had already said I would get married to someone, who had a fellowship at Harvard, and I remember Larry Ziff saying to me, \"Oh, so you want a man more than you want an English department.\"  I said well, I'll go and teach in the Boston area.  So I made the decision myself.  I could have -- you know, this is before commuting.  So I said that I would apply to Harvard, and I did, and then I got in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=646.38,695.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So that clears up actually, one question I was going to ask you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=697.45,699.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Why Harvard?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=699.66,699.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Is why you chose Harvard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=699.82,701.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It was Harvard because my then husband, my first husband was a classicist, and that was an excellent place to go.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=701.88,707.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: What was the situation for women at Harvard, as a graduate student?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=709.23,714.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, I had a very good fellowship.  I had a far better fellowship, and that was one of the problems; I had a far better fellowship than my husband.  It was the Ford Foundation, or maybe it was just that he -- whatever, never mind.  I'm not going to even go there.  It was a problem.  So I didn't see that it was problematic at all.  I did have Morton Bloomfield, who was very nice and wonderful, and a very supportive dissertation advisor.  I had two.  I had a renaissance and then Morton was my medieval advisor.  Once I finished my degree and what I was getting at and he said, \"Well you really are serious about this aren't you?\"  You know so it was, one didn't just assume you were serious, one assumed that they weren't, and then it was some sort of surprise and pleasure at the revelation, you're really serious about this aren't you.  I was used to that, because a lot of people weren't, and it wasn't expected.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=714.73,771.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: One of the things that struck me is the number of women who did make it in academic life at that time, a little later, are in face medievalists, and people have said to me that Bloomfield and Talbot Donaldson, at Yale, were actually --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=772.02,792.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Very helpful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=792.17,793.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: -- really actually quite gender blind when it came to intellectual things.  I just think it's an interesting little, and I often wonder why that should be.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=793.2,801.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, with Morton Bloomfield, actually he was very sweet.  I went off to Oxford to do a year's worth of work with J.A. Burrow, which was really wonderful, sitting (inaudible) and reading me the manuscripts was just the most wonderful thing in the world.  I'm still a renaissance person, but it's my only wish.  Morton Bloomfield nominated me for a junior fellowship at Harvard, and they said they would not accept it, the nomination of a woman, and he was very upset about this but it didn't go through so.  He became very sensitized to things, and he was gender blind to begin with, but then he saw the injustice of it and on the basis of that sense of his injustice, the injustice he'd run into himself when he wanted to nominate a woman.  He was made the chairman of the committee on the education of women of sort of the unfortunate economics cow, (laughs) and I think that sensitized him a lot.  I mean, he did a real, honest to God study.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=801.98,875.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So when would that have been?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=876.04,877.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: That would have been in 1970/71.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=877.85,880.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Before affirmative action?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=880.87,882.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yes.  We were also, the graduate women's organization, in the process of Harvard trying to figure out what it was going to do about women, it was thought that perhaps Radcliffe ought to take the graduate women back, and the graduate women's organizations was founded to try to explain to people that would be very retrograde.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=882.43,902.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so we did a lot of big scholars, we did a lot of research, and discovered that the number of fellowships and the amount of money that was given to women, as soon as gradually moved from being Radcliffe to Harvard, that they were equal citizens, and that it would be very retrograde and problematic if the way that Radcliffe was going to re-identify itself was to take the graduate women back.  And then it completely folded and became just the Radcliffe Institute, but of course, having Drew Faust come out of being president of Radcliffe, the Institute, now becoming the president of Harvard, that was -- the old network was really excited when that happened.  It was fabulous, it was really fabulous.  I actually knew Drew very briefly at Penn, so she was a fabulous person.  Anyway, so Morton, I think, was just in his own soul, gender blind, but he was also very politicized because he had to do some work and face up to it, and was responsible for some of the institutional adjustments that Harvard did make.  I'm also wondering if that wasn't because D.W. Robertson was so misogynist, and that sensitized.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=903.49,978.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=979.28,979.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know, because Morton said he was.  He said, how could like D.W. Robertson's preference to transfer and I said well, it's doing interesting stuff about the relationship between the iconography and the Romance of the Rose.  And he said OK fine but you know, he doesn't like women at all.  I said well, I don't care.  I'm just doing the scholarship, I don't have to know him.  You know, that made me interested in Harvard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=980.1,1001.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So, I'm assuming then, that your dissertation didn't have any feminist --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1001.79,1009.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, and it was interesting because when the book got to be published for the Cornell Press, very vastly revised because I just did medieval renaissance allegory and for the book, you know all the way up to 20th Century.  So it was a big difference.  I used the reader he, and the copy editor said why is the reader he?  Then answered her own question, which was, well I guess for these sorts of text, the reader is he.  And it's very, very interesting, because then I went on to -- it was interesting, my scholarship and my activism were not together, although I'm actually just right now teaching a graduate seminar on allegory, because allegory is popular by these very powerful females.  Gordon Teskey has this very interesting argument about the nature of personification.  Barbara Newman has a very interesting discussion about it, the gender personification and allegory.  So we are now talking about that, because I think that's probably why I was so attracted to it, without even knowing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1009.57,1086.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So when you got your dissertation, when you were through with your PhD, you were launched on the job market.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1086.7,1095.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1095.99,1096.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And was Yale your first choice?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1096.84,1099.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  Well I mean, I never thought in a billion years you know, whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1099.68,1105.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So how did you get the job at Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1106.23,1106.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Dwight Culler came up to Harvard, to Cambridge, and interviewed the top women, just women, causing resentments with the men.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1107.01,1117.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Do you think this could have had to do with affirmative action?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1118.61,1121.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think it had to do with the fact that this was 1973, and they had just gone co-ed in 1969, and they had a class worth of women to through, and they realized they needed to have more female faculty.  So Dwight came up to hire women.  My husband has written a little -- a funny academic book, an academic novel, so he's going around looking for visible women, but Dwight Culler was doing it at this early -- not so visible women.  They hired three that year, and it was interesting because we all knew what Drew began, talked to him it was fine.  One woman was offered the job and she accepted, Penny Lawrence.  Penny, you know from Lawrence-Fitzgerald, Lawrence now.  I went around and talked to a bunch of other people because I didn't think I was going to get the job, and then they called me down to have an interview, and I don't know if I drove down with Penny.  I know I drove down with Penny and we came together.  So I must have gone by myself.  It was interesting.  I went into Dwight's office and the chair of the office, and I was talking to (inaudible), and I can't remember who else was there, but then Marie Borroff came charging in the room and she said, \"Why wasn't I told about this?  I'm on the search committee too.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1121.27,1211.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said oh dear, oh no, too bad.  I'm thinking that you know, she's having troubles, not that I hadn't seen it before.  I was very sympathetic to Marie Borroff's not being told about the meeting, about this particular interview. ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1211.54,1227.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At any rate, yes I was offered the job, I was very surprised, and I was happy to take it and did.  And then Penny and I drove down together and started teaching.  In the very first academic meeting I had at Yale University was with a group of junior faculty we were collecting, who were going to be teaching English 25, then it was.  I think it's 125 now, you know the Chaucer to whatever, I teach that today, to this very day.  The person who was running the discussion was just somebody they'd asked, who had done it the year before, so please lead this new crew through the ropes, and it was Dick Brodhead.  I remember sitting there thinking, oh my God, I can do this.  This is what I signed up to do.  Yeah, this is what I want to do.  Penny was going on about the old man and the partner's tail and putting on the new man.  I remember that conversation and I thought you know, when Dick called up to get information about here, I said oh Dick, it will be just like the days, if you get to be president.  It will be like those fabulous days, and it's been downhill ever since that first meeting, but that was fun, that was really great fun.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1227.5,1304.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So, coming from Harvard, where there was a very active women's group trying to change things, did you find a similar group at Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1304.78,1317.28"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: There was a similar group at Yale.  I think they were trying to get women's studies started.  Because I'm not working in modern things, I generally have tended to sort of fall outside of that, and I wasn't doing any work.  My scholarship had not yet become focused on gender, and so I was a little bit beside, but it was sort of like, oh I'm glad people are pushing, because of the need to.  I was just going to do my job the best I could, that was what I had been hired to do.  Somewhere around in there, I discovered the Orwellian, the question of power and gender.  I remember I wanted to teach a class called power and gender, and I was told by the director of undergraduate, the director of DUS that somebody had objected to using the word gender to predicate of persons, that it could only be predicated of nouns.  They were terribly distressed that I was going to be stopped from teaching this and I said, oh, well that's interesting because really what I want to talk about is the odd way of the pronouns in Sir Philip Sidney's Arcadia, he makes the pronoun change.  So he calls him her, you know, Pyrocles, and so I want to talk about the -- because that seems very strange to us, you know what is biological gender, what is fictional gender, and the DUS said, would you please go talk to John Hollander, who was the fellow who had objected, and so we had the conversation about Arcadia, and John got fascinated by the gendering of things like that.  When does language even take on gender?  You know, when does -- so he was going off on a romp and needless to say, I taught the course.  You know, every sort of step of the way, it was easy.  Somebody once asked me, how do you make women sensitized to questions of gender and political inequality?  I said you just ask them what their experience has been.  He was terrified.  He was in the Nixon White House.  He was terrified when I said that, like you don't have to do anything to persuade anybody because all they have to do is, as Christine Pisani said, is to look at their own experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1317.28,1458.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: When you came to Yale, had the theory wars already broken out?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1460.39,1464.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah.  They were starting to break out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1464.34,1468.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And where did women fit into all of that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1468.79,1472.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It's funny because allegory was a big [Damanian?] term, and Barbara Johnson was, I remember, going to teach a class on allegory, and I had been teaching a class on allegory.  Barbara Johnson is a big [Damanian, Deridian?] you know.  So gender didn't play into the theory wars, because anybody --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1472.65,1501.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know, because there were women theorists who were really -- I mean, Barbara Johnson was one of the best around, but she was younger.  Shoshana Felman.  And because psychoanalysis was so large a part of it, because psychoanalysis understood that gender and sexuality was important.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1501.78,1520.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Juliet Mitchell.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1524.9,1526.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Juliet Mitchell, yes right.  Right.  So the issue of women.  There were a lot of women in the English Department, there had been a lot of people hired, and there were a lot of junior faculty.  There were fewer senior faculty, and I was a little struck, to be perfectly frank, that Dorothy Metlitsky, who was married, had come to Yale because she was married to Finkelstein, was in a second class status, which she had not been at the University of California.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1526.16,1562.82"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So she came --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1563.11,1564.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As a spouse.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1564.53,1567.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And effectively demoted, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1567.78,1568.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But not demoted because you know, but yes.  I mean, it was just a very subtle sort of thing, and that disturbed me more than the young things, you know being younger, because the young men weren't treated any better than the women really, to be perfectly frank.  I mean it was all, when you were junior faculty, you were in deep.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1568.61,1592.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Of course, that must have been something to do with the Yale tenure system or lack of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1594.5,1599.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yeah.  The rungless ladder, right and so the rungless tenure ladder, although they did tenure some people.  They tenured one, Margie Ferguson, so from that group.  They tenured Harriet Mann and Paul Fryer around that same time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1599.06,1615.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Did you -- when you came into Yale, and you were there ten years, I think.  During that time, did you have any expectation or hope that you might be tenured there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1619.64,1630.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Only because Marge Garber told me I didn't have a chance, and I'll forever resent it.  Because I think she wanted someone to prevail, and she had been so hurt.  But no, to be perfectly frank.  I job hunted all the time, every single time, and it was very painful but not at all surprising, that Marge would be tenured and I would not be tenured, because she was someone who had done degrees at Yale.  For good or ill, there is a very, very familial commitment to the people whose work you've known for a long time.  It's taken me some time to figure out that's really what it was all about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1630.17,1690.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Because actually, the surprising number of them were there as undergraduates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1690.16,1693.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1693.05,1693.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: All the way through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1693.17,1695.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Absolutely, with no -- I mean, I remember Landon Hammer had told us, as a junior, and I told him, I said listen, you would have to go elsewhere for graduate school.  I'm not going to write you a letter of recommendation for Yale.  He got into all the other places naturally, and he came back to Yale.  He was sitting behind me at somebody's lecture and he said well, you're here.  Of course he's gone through the whole thing.  I actually use him as you know, the sort of poster boy for an argument if you want to stay in any one place, although it has not hurt him.  I mean, it's just that nobody knows how good he is.  He's by far that best -- I shouldn't say that.  One of the very best undergraduates I ever taught in my entire life, and that other people should be so much more famous now than he is, even in the same class, they've gone on to fame and fortune because they went off elsewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1695.82,1751.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1751.8,1752.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: (inaudible).  He may still be there, and the new book is supposed to be spectacular.  At any rate, that, I think, is more the question along the gender.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1752.02,1765.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: That's interesting because certainly, the investment in the collegiality is very strong.  Did you find that the women, and there were fair numbers you said, of women, junior women especially, in the English Department by the time you came there, that you made common cause?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1765.98,1791.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think it was somewhat common cause.  Certainly, some of the work that we -- you know, when the scholarship, when feminism became part of the scholarship, it was a group effort.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1791.13,1807.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I know when Nancy Vickers of Bryn Mawr College, and I were sitting around the table.  It was actually my husband at the time who said, you guys are talking about gender, why don't you have a conference about it?  He was the one who suggested it, gender.  And then we had the conference in 1982 and Margie was involved with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1807.46,1830.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: That was Rewriting the Renaissance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1830.4,1832.28"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And then Rewriting the Renaissance came out in '86.  So insofar as it was scholarship that we were doing, trying to open up renaissance studies by you know, placing the renaissance studies and new studies together, and that was an important collective, a very big collective operation, but not something that was only just women.  They had a lot of men in that conference who wanted to talk.  Not make it the no man's land.  You know, there was sort of another little phase, women who are scholarship.  So it was a collective operation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1832.28,1874.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: In looking back, do you think there's a single moment or event that made you realize that your research was going from work in general to a very specifically feminist perspective?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1874.94,1892.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, I think it was that conference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1892.92,1894.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Was it the conference?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1894.22,1894.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Because I did the power and gender class.  I was also supposedly writing a book, which I'm still supposed to be writing called, When Women Rule the World, the Glorious 16th Century.  And it was when Nancy and I were talking about that book at a dinner table conversation when we said we could really get everybody together to talk about you know, really whereas gender.  She was (inaudible).  Let's get everybody together working on gender, and a lot of the men are too.  So it was that, and it was fascinating because here's the moment.  We were having lunch in was it March, 1982.  We were having lunch with the conference and a telephone call came in to Memorial Hall.  We were having lunch in the cafeteria and I walked out to the payphone or something like that.  I can't imagine what it is.  That's what I remember.  There was no cell phones, so it was some weird thing, where a friend of mine, who had gone to graduate school, whose undergraduate was (inaudible).  She ended up being the deputy editor of the New York Times Book Review, and she said, I have a bet with the editor here.  We've got this book that was written in 1405.  It's an allegory by Christine de Pizan and I said oh yeah, yeah, she wrote that sort of thing that [Rosma Tuv?] talked about.  I don't know this text though, the Book of the City of Ladies.  She said would you review this?  I have a bet, five bucks, that the editor said I can't get a publishable review out of this.  And I said OK fine, give it to me.  So, I couldn't say no to that because of the conference I was in.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1894.42,1997.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So the conference ended and we started trying to find someone to publish this collection of essays on this, and every single person that we said, every publisher we talked to -- you know it took four years to get that published because no one wants to read a book about renaissance topics by a number of different authors.  I mean, I cannot tell you -- I mean, everyone had to have one after that book.  It was fun.  It was fun to see that happen, that change happen.  So I went home and the book came in the mail, and I remember standing on the porch in Connecticut, opening up the bag, and pulling the book out, the reading copy of Earl Jeffrey Richards' translation of the Book of the City of Ladies and reading the first part, where Christine de Pizan is doing the reading scene, she's reading a book, and then she stops and says I'm going to sleep, and then to have a dream that her mother calls (inaudible).  And I just went oh my God, it's an allegory when her mother calls her to supper.  You know, this is so different and I think that was -- and then I wrote the review.  Actually, I came across a review quite recently, an old crumbled old yellow thing.  I said boy, the person who wrote this had to write a book on this.  And then I stopped, you know, backed up and did some work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1997.91,2085.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I've asked junior a member of faculty.  Several people have said to me that there really was a major divide, not necessarily a gender one, between junior faculty and senior faculty, so much so that there was at least one member of the senior faculty who just said they didn't even entertain junior faculty to dinner.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2090.08,2112.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Was that true?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2113.68,2114.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yes, yeah.  No, it was hugely different, but it was because you know, well it's kind of -- yes, yes, absolutely.  I think it was interesting.  I was just talking to someone here today or maybe a couple of days ago, about the provost that plays golf with an assistant professor, and somebody was saying that he shouldn't do that, he shouldn't play golf.  This person is going to have to come up for tenure and he has to make a decision about it, and he just shouldn't socialize.  And I said, oh please.  You know, as bad as it may be and as horrific as it may be, you know when people let that future sense of pain and anguish stop them from creating a community, it's problematic.  It has happened at Yale, and you can see why people will say, I can't invest in these people because they're not going to be around.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you're going to be really hostile to me and feel really personally betrayed, and so I'm just not going to invest in it because we can tenure these people.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2114.09,2176.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It turns out my uncle was a chair of OB/GYN at the same time and he left.  He left Duke Medical School because he saw he wasn't able to tenure any more, and that was just useless because you put all this stuff into people and then you can't do it.  It's just a cuckoo way to run a university.  I was surprised to hear him say, at that time, that it was the same in the medical school, and that it was really panned you know, because I thought it was all (inaudible).  I now, from this point of view, understand why.  I mean, it was a human decision.  But as Dick said, when he took the job and then came in and came to dinner with the (inaudible).  He was seated next to somebody who was just going through the tenure process, a wonderful, brilliant woman, and he turned to me and said, \"You can tenure people here.\"  And I said yes, you can.  She's in the clear, she thinks she's going to get it.  But he said, that's wonderful, and I said well you know, come on Dick, you know people have been tenured at Yale.  But the assumption is that it doesn't happen.  It's the unusual thing that it does happen, and so you have to put up with that.  I think it's unfortunate.  You know, Duke's made different decisions.  Had you asked me anything about this many years ago (inaudible).  But no, there was a real divide and it wasn't gender.  I don't think it was gender, and it was -- well it was gender insofar as gender difference is different.  You know, it creates a gender difference.  The young turks, the boys, and the young men had to behave in a certain way or not.  You have the girls that have to behave in a certain way or not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2176.88,2296.27"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: You were married when you were at Yale.  Do you think --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2296.27,2301.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I was married, divorced and got remarried.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2301.59,2303.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Oh, right.  So I just wondered if maybe it was more difficult for single women, the whole social stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2303.79,2311.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I don't know.  I don't really know.  We didn't talk about things like that.  The single women I knew didn't seem to think it was more difficult.  I guess I wouldn't want to speak for anything that you know, they might have said.  I mean, if you want to talk to them.  I'm unable to talk about their experiences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2311.12,2337.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Absolutely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2337.56,2337.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But I don't -- I wouldn't say they were singled out for sexual harassment, because some single women did complain about certain compromising things, but they all rather thought it was their own doing, pretty much their own doing as well.  Then, you know that was before the notion (inaudible).  And there were a lot of very, very flirtatious people who totally control (inaudible).  I don't think it was -- I just, my daughter has just been involved in censuring someone for sexual harassment.  I said, that isn't sexual harassment in my book and she said mom, you're so 20th Century.  So I understand sexual hara-- I mean, I don't have the, you know I'm so old that you know, some of the things that happen with respect to sexual harassment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2337.69,2408.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I said, OK, you know, I do understand that women are in very, very powerless positions, but why don't we just...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2408.74,2416.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I think the world has changed tremendously in thirty years.  What kind of relationship did you have with the senior women in the department?  Was Marie the only one, or Dorothy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2417.29,2431.85"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Me and Dorothy.  Dorothy was fine, but she was kind of hankered by her second-class citizenship.  Marie was fine.  It wasn't until oh my God, I'm going to blank on her name now, Pat Spacks, Patricia Spacks came as chair.  She was just a breath of fresh air.  I mean, it was amazing because she, I remember at one point, you know we were carrying on a conversation, because everything was so covert and covered, no one ever mentioned any names or you know.  There was a lot of this dancing around, and she came in and said, I don't understand what you people are talking about.  What is this?  I was like, oh my God, there's a human being in the room who is acting like a human being.  She was fabulous.  She had us over to dinner and wasn't afraid.  She was wonderful.  She really was wonderful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2431.85,2490.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I spoke to her last week actually, so I'm hoping that she'll do an interview.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2490.27,2495.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2495.19,2495.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: She said she would, actually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2495.67,2496.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, good.  She was just amazing.  It was a great thing to have her there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2496.83,2501.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Was it her personal style, or was the style partly because she was a woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2501.7,2506.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, because she was a woman, and her personal style.  A woman and also your critical practice too.  I mean, she was formerly women's studies.  I mean she understood, this is just cuckoo, the secrecy, whatever, and I think they all loved her too, because they made her chair immediately and of course then she had to start keeping all the confidences and stuff like that.  But she remained a human being, although I have a feeling that sometimes she was hurt in some way but you know, that's just the way life is.  Life is full of slings and arrows.  But the fact that she left Yale, I don't know what that story is.  It could have worked.  I'm sorry to think she was hurt, because I think she was a wonderful chair and did excellent work.  I mean, she couldn't change much about that difference, but that's just --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2506.46,2566.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: So do you think that was Yale's culture, and not just in the English Department?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2566.85,2571.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh absolutely, because my uncle complained about it in the medical school, and that's really pretty far away from the English Department.  Yeah, it was all across the board, certainly in the humanities.  And the culture, I mean the theory wars have something to do with it too, that they were sort of pitched battles.  The way in which the theory people were so defensive by saying, well you haven't read so and so.  I mean, it was all these late breaking French theorists that you had to pretend you knew something about, because you couldn't say, in any conversation, oh, I haven't read that.  What is the citation?  You know, and that's what sort of Pat Spacks would do.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2571.68,2619.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh, I remember actually, when I got to Penn, I was having a conversation with Barbara Bernstein Smith, who actually recruited me up here.  She said, well what are you writing on?  I was doing -- I think I just -- no, I had, it was finished and published.  I was publishing Milton Spencer and I said well, it's in relation with Milton Spencer, you know Harold Bloom says blah blah blah, you know, Milton's relation to Spencer.  And she said, oh does Harold say that?  Oh, I didn't know, what book is that?  So that somebody could say what book did Harold Lloyd write about.  I went ooh, I am in a different place entirely, when I got to Penn, that you could say well I haven't read that and not just want to commit hara-kiri.  You know pretend, you have to hide that you had read it.  Oh, it's fun.  We were young.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2619.8,2665.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: You did a write, and actually I've got it here, the undergraduates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2665.1,2665.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, you reminded me of it, which I'd completely forgotten about them.  Am I contradicting myself here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2665.62,2679.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I don't think so.  The tone of it is really about how women are often afraid to fail, or the fear of failure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2679.9,2692.16"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2692.18,2693.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: To me it's like the fear of failure and the price of success is something --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2693.4,2697.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It's the same yeah, OK.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2697.05,2699.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.  And I just wondered why you wrote what you wrote at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2699.79,2704.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well the fear of failure, that was something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2704.22,2705.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The current President of Radcliffe had, and I can't remember her name.  She was an anthropologist, and she had written about the fear of failure.  Women are more dominated by the fear of failing, therefore they don't take on risks.  That was a big deal at Harvard when we were there.  So there was that behind me, but also too -- did I write this -- when did I write it?  After I was long gone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2706.69,2738.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It was in '75/'76.  It was right in the middle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2738.5,2739.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, right in the middle of my being here.  Well, then it's probably from that.  Oh, that was Isabel McCaffrey.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2739.14,2751.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Was that the Harvard woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2752.55,2753.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, simply because she was a woman.  That's one question I wanted to ask her, how did you do it?  How did you do it?  You have your PhD, you have a good job, you are married.  I was falling apart.  How did you manage?  I had a question I wanted to ask you.  Women still feel there's something special mysteriously when a woman is doing this and say, oh isn't that cute.  I'll have to try it out.  Try (inaudible).  You don't really realize, you don't really remember.  See I just said that here today, that really could.  I remember then Morton and thinking it's so puzzling.  It scared me.  Good old Morton.  I'm being very honest here.  The nightmare is...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2753.94,2798.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: You realize of course, we can't understand a word you've just said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2799.23,2805.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know.  I'm so sorry.  I'm reading what I wrote in 1975, so that's -- no '76, so that's 31 years ago.  I'm interested that, and I now realize that it also probably scared me.  I had nightmares when I'd go to interviews for graduate schools and have people evaluating me in terms of my personal appearance.  Dress regal, fingernails trim.  So I know that all those people sitting in judgment, I mean my dreams really mean.  The President of Radcliffe once told a women's group that when she was offered the job, her first response is to say no, I can't do it.  Then she looked around her office, caught some of the articles, how women choose to -- there, that's why.  Picked up the phone and said yes.  She'd been afraid that she saw it and chose instead to succeed.  Hearing her confess honestly, her own hesitations, not to take the job offer from a small college or decide to come where the competition is heavy, exciting, the pressure is always on.  Pressure has caused dislocation in my personal life.  I was getting divorced.  But now I have learned that only I can legitimize my own right to do my job with all the energy and intelligence I can muster.  I don't need to ask somebody else.  I think I can do a better job of being a woman.  (laughs)  Cute.  I see more and more -- I'm sorry.  I see more and more women be successful, the more ones sees success as failure and don't fear their failure, try for that, it's easy.  Interesting.  And it was the woman.  I'm sorry I can't remember her name.  She was the first President of the new Radcliffe that got constituted without the undergraduates.  Actually, she oversaw that transition and she was very honest about that, and it's interesting.  I do remember that during the -- you have some dream, because the dream was coming across country and being interviewed.  You know, it's one of those weird moments, when I first saw Yale, and I saw the hospital.  That was the building that was in my dream when I was out in California.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2805.34,2929.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I had never been in New Haven but I you know, I dreamt that place, and it was funny because it where I gave birth to Maggie.  So it was a daughter, so it was a very interesting moment.  Actually the dream had gone on, to you know, I pushed the button on the elevator, you know when I flunked the interview, to get to probably Yale graduate school.  I had gone down and gone to the bottom of the elevator and drowned and died, and the water came and I floated to the top, and then I saw a child pick up a plate of bubbles.   So it's so weird that I should think that Yale, the New Haven Hospital is what that place looked like, and that's where Maggie was born.  It was very weird.  When I first came and I saw it, I had the interview and oh my God!  That's my dream, I'm coming to get the job.  Are dreams prophetic.  It was very funny.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2929.15,2987.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: You often do have déjà vu in dreams.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2987.85,2990.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2990.07,2991.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It is a phenomenon.  I've experienced it too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2992.01,2995.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But that was uncanny.  So the question, the cost of failure, was when my first marriage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2996.05,3006.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"His name is Frank.  He had gotten a job in the Classics Department at the same time I had gotten the job at the English Department.  This was a one-year position, and we had every expectation that we'd be put on a regular ladder position, but something happened.  We thought we were going to commute, as we should probably have commuted, but I sacrificed.  You know, I worked for a year and take the Berkeley thing.  We were going to commute and he was you know, quite angry with me.  At any rate, that was what was happening.  There was strained on the marriage that couldn't survive my wanting to succeed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3009.67,3061.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.  And you know, pressures on young academics are just so great anyway, but you compounded it by having a child.  What was it like to be pregnant in the English Department at that time?  I mean, did anybody advise against it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3061.16,3078.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, no.  Well, I'm just kidding.  (laughs)  I'm sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3078.08,3082.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: No one sat you down and say, whatever you do, don't get pregnant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3082.39,3088.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, no, no, they didn't say -- well no, there was a woman who said don't come around pregnant.  I mean you know, don't show up here looking like that.  You know, I was nine months pregnant.  She was born -- it's so cute, I have to tell this story.  I was going to walk around in my great scarlet rose, at the graduation, nine months pregnant.  But she was born graduation day.  Actually, she made it up to me by giving me another Yale graduation, when she graduated, which is cute.  She didn't want to be part of that parade.  She wanted to be her own self in that parade.  So somebody did say to me, it was a woman, who was non-ladder faculty.  She said, \"Don't show up around here.\"  And I kind of went -- I mean, one didn't show off one's belly, but I do think it was -- and there was another woman, Toni Healy (sp?), was pregnant at the same time.  So there were two of us, and we did bond over that.  She's meeting us in Toronto.  It's Mrs. Healy, as her students call her.  So there were two of us, so that probably made it better, and we delivered quite close in relationship to each other, so we clearly got pregnant not knowing the other one was.  So that was -- I had thought about that, but that probably made it much easier with two of us together.  No one said anything.  It was just a great big...  I remember when one of my male students realized I was pregnant, you know it registered.  You know, because people don't look at professors' bodies at all.  I was eight months pregnant but you know, they hadn't noticed.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3088.26,3196.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No, nobody said anything about it.  It was hard, it was really hard.  I remember when Margie and were both turning in materials for tenure, and Margie said, I just had this terrible dream that I was having to iron the baby.  You know, taking a hot iron and hot ironing a baby.  It was awful, and it was some horrible thing.  I'm not even sure I got it right.  Maggie actually had an infection in her mouth at the time and I said, I have to go because my mind's -- you know, this child is registering my stress about things and I have to go home.  You know so, it's not just metaphorical, it's not just a dream.  It's you know, someone else is going through this.  That was a sad moment, when I realized how much it had cost her.  But you know hey, it's not Baghdad, it was only a little bit.  There were no bombs dropping on us.  I mean, she's OK, but that was a bad month.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3196.8,3266.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: What were the students like, because you must have been teaching the early -- not the first cohort maybe, of women undergraduates for certain in the second or third.  What were they like?  Did you ever -- did they pay particular attention to you because you were a woman?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3266.6,3284.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My first class, my very first class I ever met at Yale was at 8:30 in the morning, was freshman composition.  This was 1973, and this large, African American boy got up, slammed his hands on the table and said, \"I'm not staying in this class.\"  And I said, \"Why not?\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3286.9,3306.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh God, the first thing that happened.  And he said, \"There are no women in this class.\"  I sort of peered around and he said, \"I thought I came to a co-ed school.\"  I sort of peered around, you know and they had long hair at that time, so I said oh right, oh right, there aren't any girls in here.  It was the freshman football squad, because that's you know, they have to take an early morning class, and he stormed out.  And I said, \"Don't I count?\"  And he said, \"No ma'am, you don't.\"  It was really very funny.  So that was a cute little moment, and those boys could not write at all.  Oh, and people say, don't you think students can't write as well as they used to and I say, it's been uphill.  I mean, ever since my first class, those kids were really, really bad.  They were fun to teach, so my first class all men.  And then I had another class that was really quite wonderful, and I called them all by their last name; Ms. so and so and Mr. So and so, and then they all came to me and said, you're the most uptight person we ever met.  Could you please call us by our first names, because -- I said, I was doing it to show you some respect.  And they said no, we can't talk to each other because we don't know each others' first names.  We can't say hey mister so and so you know or miss so and so.  So that's what I remember.  ","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3307.77,3383.36"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Did the women seek me out?  I know that one girl came in, in that very class.  She was actually captain of the crew team, so she was quite an athlete.  She came and said, I'm going to be late getting my paper in, I'm sorry, because I was raped.  It's my fault.  I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  So I said, anybody a little time on weekly papers who got raped.  You have to bring a doctors note.  I'm sorry.  So there was that.  I think I even tried to say it's not your fault you know, blah blah blah.  I didn't have it worked out yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3383.94,3421.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I wonder if you'd been a male professor, if she would have said that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3422.48,3427.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think she might not have, and I was -- it's too bad.  Now I know what I should have said.  Are you going and doing this?  You know, the kit, you know do you really want help, let me walk you over there, blah blah blah, which is what I'd do now, and subsequently have.  It has happened again, alas it has.  I also made an error too, from you know, an African American student who came, and was missing for -- who came back after being gone from class for a long time.  I did then, I said that she should go to you know, get a psychiatric workout and then you know, you'd be able to stay in the class.  I said, why don't you go, and I didn't know that that is totally (inaudible).  And she goes, oh great.  You know, you can do whatever you want, and she asked to come back in.  I was wrong.  I might even, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3427.92,3486.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And of course, there weren't the protocols in place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3486.31,3493.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  When I called up the dean and I said so and so came in, and I said this and this, and she said, \"Oh my God!\"  Run, do you have her, is she still there.  You know, this college dean wanted to save this person.  It was interesting, it was really very interesting, but I learned.  Subsequently, I had a fabulous graduate student who, the dean, the Graduate Dean at Penn called me up and said, so and so hasn't don't thus and such, and I'm going to drop her from the rolls.  I said, oh don't do that.  She's down in the Bahamas, saving her sister from prostitution and drug addition.  He says yeah, she told me that.  Did you believe that?  And I said yes, yes.  I mean, wouldn't you do that for your sister?  I think of course that his sister would never be there but you know.  But that's -- she's brilliant, a very fantastic scholar now you know, so a very prominent person.  But I learned what you do.  So it's not just gender, it's a lot of other things that we deal with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3493.57,3556.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: When did the notion of mentoring kind of actively enter --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3558.34,3565.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Everybody's vocabulary?  Well you know, as a junior faculty at Yale, you don't do -- you don't direct dissertations, you read them.  You just ask as readers on them, and then you teach graduate classes.  So the mentoring there was only in terms of the teaching.  I remember somebody called me up and said, I remember that Spencer class.  We seemed to be doing something different every day, and that was very useful.  What did you have us do, because I've got to put together a class.  So there was that kind of thing, but we weren't involved with directing dissertations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3565.1,3607.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I didn't mentor until I got to Penn, which I did immediately.  You know, the teaching at Yale was very, very serious, very serious.  It was a great treat to get from Harvard, where people were very unserious about their work, to Yale, where they were very serious.  You know, the down side was they're too serious, but it was infinitely to be preferred to this rets autour and this, I'm so brilliant and I don't have to do anything kind of thing, and this staggering response you know, through and through the entire university, which is not to say that I mean, they said ach, we don't have to teach our students anything.  Everybody here is so brilliant that they just make their own way.  And so we just stand back and we don't get in the way, that was what was said.  And then you know, when I got to Yale, you know, you can actually teach people thing.  You know, we can actually tell them that this is what you do when you first go to the library, then you do this and you do this.  You don't have to just figure it out.  Everybody doesn't have to rediscover the wheel.  So there was that mentoring that I learned, just because everybody did it, and it started as early as that first meeting with Dick Brodhead.  I remember just having dinner with a bunch of Yale buddies.  It wasn't Dick.  It was Penny and Paul Tribes, people like that.  Maybe it was Dick, I don't know.  We were talking about individual undergraduates by name.  You know that's the thing about Yale that's so spectacular, is their commitment to their students.  They know who they are from the time they're undergraduates.  They're just not a mass of people moving through that you don't respect.  They're deeply profound, brilliant individuals whom you care about deeply and know by name, and talk about when you go out to dinner.  And then it's a world-class research one university.  I mean, it's a great undergraduate education.  So that was my sense of the mentoring at Yale, and it didn't have anything to do with gender one way or the other.  Everybody was doing it all together, and I persist in thinking it's just a great program, you know undergraduate.  That's why I wanted -- I was happy to have a -- make a go.  I wanted her to go to women's college but when she -- she went up to the women's college, she was at Wellesley and she said mom, everybody's telling me here that if I got into Yale, I should go to Yale.  And she said, I think that's what I'm going to do.  I said, (inaudible) stand there and say I won't go to Yale.  I wanted her to have a women's college, because I do think that it's occurred to her now, I do, even with all that, while I watch girls just back off.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3608.91,3775.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: In a mix, in a co-ed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3775.5,3777.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, a co-ed situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3777.74,3778.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Even today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3778.67,3778.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Huh?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3778.79,3779.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Even today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3779.85,3780.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  Oh really today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3780.41,3784.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Even in a subject like English, where probably most of the majors are female.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3784.43,3789.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, right, not in that but you know, there's a certain couple of very pretty girls, who know they're being watched by the two or three guys in the class, who will not do some things men wouldn't normally do.  No, it's true.  More and more, -- well, I had an all girl class and it was very different.  You know, it was different and that was a wonderful time, and I don't think it would...  I remember once, proposing to teach a class in the focus, special focus program, and the people here really upsetting me deeply about it.  They wouldn't let me name it what I wanted to name it, because it was too feminist, and they said you're going to end up with a class of all women.  I said well, \"What's the matter with that?\"  You know, as if that's the end of the world.  I said, why don't you ask Nan Koenig about that?  You know, I don't mind teaching a class of all women.  It would be sort of interesting.  I actually never had -- there was one honorary guy, who was African American.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3789.67,3858.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And this was here at Duke?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3858.57,3858.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.  It was about power and gender and women gladiators and stuff like that.  But they've always been pretty much split.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3858.8,3865.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: When you came to service, what was the expectation in Yale about being on committees?  Was it because there was so many -- was it the case that there were so many committees, so few women, that women were spread rather thinly across the committees?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3865.08,3889.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think women were spread rather think across the committees, but I was not at all unused to being the only female in the room.  So it didn't bother me, I mean it was sad.  We were hoping to change it and it was starting to change, but that wasn't unusual.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3890.11,3908.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And ah, I you know, everybody sort of sat on their committees and did their committee work.  You know, you just sort of you know, the department needed to lend out a certain number of its people, we'll send you on missions to do that, and so we all just did the certain things, and we did it without any compensation.  Here at Duke, if you were asked to do something, we'll give you a class off.  It's the weirdest culture, and so very, very different from Yale, which you know, not only my first, but I really do sort of hold everything else up to it.  Ian and I actually talk about it (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3908.85,3952.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Did you serve on committees inside the English Department?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3952.95,3955.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yeah, yeah right, yes.  The last one I served on was a very interesting thing, where the faculty had just seen the administration grow so large in relation to the faculty that you were disturbed by it and wanted to find out why it happened.  That was the very last committee I served on.  It was interesting because there were graduate students on the committee, and they were very eager young men actually, there was no women.  To see them, see how academia worked and to sort of see the scales fall from their eyes, you know was an interesting process.  They were sort of outraged and it's like yeah, oh yeah, but you can still do the things you want to do here.  You know, what you want to do is teach, make your own mark, and most people are well intentioned and then they're trying to give it all up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3955.62,4017.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Did the women get onto the senior committees?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4017.34,4019.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I don't know.  I don't really know, because there would only be senior women on the senior committees.  The real divide was not gender.  The real divide was senior faculty, junior faculty.  So I mean that was the total business.  No one could -- very few people were going to be able to succeed in making the transfer and indeed, almost as many women as men did it from the cohort that I saw, but that was precious few and it was you know, it was you know, the people who didn't get tenure are a legion around running all the universities around the world today.  You know, it was a joke.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4019.62,4068.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.  You must have been -- you would have been at Yale when Hanna Gray was Provost.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4068.67,4076.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4076.98,4077.28"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And then her year as President.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4077.3,4080.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm, mm hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4080.19,4081.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Did you form any impression of her?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4081.15,4082.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As a?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4082.6,4084.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: As an administrator?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4084.86,4085.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Whatever has -- whatever impression I formed of her has been trumped by her relationship to my friend Nancy Vickers, who was President of Bryn Mawr, and Hanna was on the Board of Trustees.  So I heard a lot about Hanna and Hanna, this, that and the other thing, once giving Nancy wonderful advice saying, when you're president of an institution and you don't know what's going to happen, you be prepared for anything.  The very first day that she was President of Yale, or I guess she was Acting President of Yale, you know this was a notorious thing that happened.  Someone in the Spanish Department bit off another faculty member's earlobe.  She said, \"Who knew that I was supposed to deal with this.\"  You know, that's what she told Nancy and I said, \"Oh, I remember that incident.\"  And she said well, Hanna Gray was President and she had to deal with that.  She said so, I'm expecting anything.  So we make a joke that you know, Nancy is getting ready to stop.  She's retiring, so it's just under eleven years.  I said was it bad as biting off the earlobe and she said, I just wish they would bit off each others' earlobes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4085.05,4153.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It is interesting though, that so many women from Yale have gone off and done -- had very, very senior positions, presidential positions at so many universities, and I've been struck by that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4154.23,4171.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4171.2,4171.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Alison Richard is at Cambridge and Susan Hock was -- and a number of others, and Kim Bottomly, who has just gone to Wellesley.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4171.53,4180.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well I think that Yale has done the best job going co-ed, of all the Ivies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4180.78,4184.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4185.16,4186.15"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Absolutely.  Absolutely.  I mean, I think you know, hiring all these women --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4186.17,4190.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Why do you say that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4190.49,4190.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well making -- you know, saying we have to hire a whole bunch of women.  You know, that's when I got hired.  Not for affirmative action but because we thought these women undergraduates that we have to you know, show some mentors and role models to, and we just have to do it.  It's part of educating this population, which is different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4190.73,4210.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  Yeah.  I'm curious --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4210.86,4211.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And they didn't cut down the numbers of people.  I mean, every other university just finagled it.  I mean, Princeton you know, mandated a 60/40 ratio.  Dartmouth couldn't -- you know, went on to the three session thing, a summer session, because they weren't going to educate fewer leaders of America.  That is, they weren't going to lessen the number of men, so they just added the women on.  Nancy was very good about that.  Harvard you know, constructed Radcliffe to keep the pressure entering women off.  I mean, there were a bunch of -- this is what GWO found out, was a whole bunch of Harvard deans sat down and said OK, we don't want to have to admit women, so let's start this little college over here.  How far away do we have to make it so the Yale faculty -- so the Harvard faculty can take the tram to teach the class, so the kids will intermix, and that's exactly how they figured out how far Radcliffe would be away from Harvard.  Radcliffe never had its own faculty.  They only could choose from you know, Harvard faculty.  That was supposed to be the great (inaudible).  So when Yale decided to go co-ed, they did it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4211.24,4285.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Because some other women have said to me, not necessarily in the English Department, but women who were hired around the same time as you.  Well we knew we were there to make the numbers up.  That's their perception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4285.4,4297.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4298.4,4298.6"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And to obey the letter of the law.  1972, the affirmative action, you know Title IX.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4298.62,4305.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4305.98,4306.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: But they knew -- but they saw it also as an opportunity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4306.76,4310.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, absolutely opportunity, oh totally opportunity, yes.  Oh no.  I mean, we were fighting like crazy for affirmative action.  You know, Phyllis Rackin, who became my colleague at the University of Pennsylvania, you know, in 1973, when here suit against the University of Pennsylvania for tenure, that she'd been denied tenure because of gender.  You know, I mean that was a great, wonderful thing, so we have the law.  You know, so that if you worked hard, you know that you were given the opportunity.  You know, it was great.  What's interesting about affirmative action going in, because I really, I think Yale made its own commitment, and I think of the women's table as being an honest statement about...  I mean, it was a beautiful recognition of the facts, that you were going to turn into a work of art, embrace, and have a certain sense of humor about it.  And that's why I thought that you know, it was OK for Maggie to go to Yale, because I do think that they have made the best, the best commitment to equal education.  I mean, there's only so much a school can do.  It can't change all of society, but it can certainly make it open to women, and I think it did, and Maggie really wanted to go there for that reason.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4310.67,4397.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Is it just -- you know, I say that because it's just interesting that people have different perceptions, whether it's to do with their own experience, and you only see through that prism.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4397.79,4407.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know it's interesting.  Margie's daughter went to Yale too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4408.3,4410.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yes.  Yes, I remember her saying that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4410.72,4413.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4413.39,4413.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Was there a sense again, because again, in the 70s, there were rising numbers of women actually in the administration.  I mean Penny, for example, moved into administration.  Was there maybe a feeling that a woman could have a balanced life as a senior administrator, in a way that maybe it was not possible as a faculty member, or that there was a feeling that administration is sort of second class to research and scholarship, and therefore it was all right for women to do it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4414.48,4452.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think actually in Penny's case, I think she once -- I think it was adorable.  She said, I can take what I've -- the scholarship that I've done on a cart in a little, you know, chain that I have on a little model cart that I have on a you know, a bracelet.  What do you call it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4453.7,4478.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: A charm bracelet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4479.17,4480.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: A charm bracelet, and it was adorable the way she said that, that she didn't expect to you know, stand for tenure, because she hadn't done the work that you need to do in order to be a viable candidate for tenure.  And yet she had such incredible gifts for the university.  She switched tracks because she wanted also, didn't want to leave New Haven.  You know, it would have meant a different kind of you know, thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4480.85,4513.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it's not a research.  I don't think it was that it was lesser, certainly not lesser.  Many, many people think that you know, many people here, for instance, think that the administration is infinitely more important than being a you know, the old garden variety faculty member.  But the ah, but I don't think it was gender.  For instance, Chip Long had made the same adjustment into the administration.  I know Marge Garber thought possibly about doing that at the time, when she had to have a front in a sort of small place.  But you know, she, she wanted to continue to teach and one minute that she got to have -- at first she had already known that she was going to be willing to.  She had the option of going to Harvard and so on.  She was someone who you know, who was just before us and ahead of us, as a woman ah, but then you were all right, and we saw her go through a very painful process, very painful, very, very, very.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4514.01,4583.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I haven't spoken to her yet, but I hope that -- I hope she'll agree to talk, because I'd really like to hear her story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4583.55,4592.17"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think she would be a very, very good person to talk to.  She would know what the whole thing would have been like.  She was very interesting.  She -- when Penny and I came down together, Dwight -- excuse me, Dwight put us up with her, you know because she was a girl and here are two new girls on the block coming in.  So, go over and see her apartment.  I remember she had her galleys spread all over the place, it was pretty weird.  You know, she was very, you know she's been at this job two years and she's already got her book out.  We though oh, this is going to be fun.  (laughs)  She said, well I could have made it better, but I just wanted to get it out.  Then she said what she was working on and I didn't know what she was working on it and said oh wow, interesting.  Who is that person?  I never even heard of this person.  It was a painter.  It was fun.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4592.17,4657.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It's very easy probably, in academic life, to have one's confidence blunted easily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4658.01,4666.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm, yeah.  Well it's just, do you know you can do it, because you've never done it.  You just you know, barely finished your dissertation and here's all this other stuff, and it's what you've lived in and you admire it so much.  So it seems -- and you have to know so much.  It's so, it's -- and I think also too, there's you know, people weren't saying it's real easy you know.  They weren't telling us it was going to be easy and they were sort of making it look hard.  And ah, I'd just tell everybody it wasn't going to be easy.  You know, you have to plug away at it, but it's -- there's nothing serious about it.  You just have to get in there and do it, and it's a lot of fun.  And you know, when you're having a good time, you know just tell the stories of all the wonderful times you've had.  But they don't -- I didn't ever get a sense that my professors really, really loved it and enjoyed and you know, it would have been nicer.  But I think those were different days too.  It was very much a formal --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4666.47,4728.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4728.65,4728.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I'll apologize when I'm telling an anecdote to my class, because it's not really what we should be doing in there.  Oh no, go ahead and tell an anecdote, but it's usually germane, but it is a sort of humanizing you know, operation as well.  So ah, and, and it was, I guess incompetence.  Could we have loved it?  Yes.  Or there was a real -- I mean, as I say, the competitiveness of Yale.  It was very competitive, and I missed it when I got to Penn.  You know, people didn't really care.  You know, there was no -- the symbolic space was not you know, pulsing with you know, so and so said this and such, and that was interesting.  You know, it was real mellow.  You know, it was looser, it was different.  I remember once, when we got up to Yale, bending with Margie and John Killery (sp?) over a line of Morton when we were looking at this thing.  And we are just trying to see, as much as we can see, in these lines of Morton.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4728.73,4809.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you know, John Killery and Margie Ferguson, they're coming up with great things.  You know, and I'd say something, and I'd come up with a good thing too.  And it was -- I remember bending back, because they were both still there you know, and I said oh, I've missed this.  I've missed this.  And you know, we were friends and it good kind of combat in a way, that was very wearing, very, very, very wearing, but it was exciting.  Didn't I say that?  Did I say that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4810.27,4844.02"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: You did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4844.04,4844.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I said that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4844.16,4845.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yes, you did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4845.03,4846.23"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The competition is heavy, exciting, the pressure's always on.  Yes, yes!  But ah, you could have a good time.  Oh and actually, I remember the point that I made, and John Killery then, he said oh blah blah blah.  And then John Killery writes something, and this is wonderful, he said oh you know, going beyond that sort of bromine, you know that platitudeness.  So I said what the line was, and it was -- he doesn't even know where he heard it.  I just had to laugh.  I said that was not a platitude John, that was very original.  Go find it in print someplace.  You know, it was very cute, very cute.  We had a laugh over that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4846.23,4887.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Were you involved in the establishment of women's studies at Yale?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4889.32,4893.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, I wasn't and that was, as I said, it was sort of a presentist operation.  It's not that I wasn't interested.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4893.99,4906.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4906.93,4907.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But that it just, because I was teaching medieval renaissance and me, and women's studies is a cross disciplinary, very presentist operation of sociology and science and humanities.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4907.59,4925.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4925.72,4926.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: So I was never asked to participate in the actual steering committees and all that stuff.  It's also very political and very social science oriented, and so it kind of -- I expected, because I had been an activist, you know also at Oxford.  I was in a Oxford Women's Action, which was a very different sort of thing, very funny, but I would have been happy to participate, but my academic interests were not useful to them, and so it went on without me.  Also too, you know Yale, at that point, was very department oriented.  It was hard to get outside of the department, and I very seldom did, except in the colleges.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4926.48,4985.1"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4985.1,4985.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I mean, there was plenty of chance to mix and match, but it was -- you know, residential college fellowships, that's when you went outside.  I discovered that the you know, so the people who were doing the women's studies were located in a much more modern period.  So, I don't know that -- and it didn't surprise me either.  As I say you know, I was really -- the first book I published while I was there.  I was there, I can't remember, four years, so I was still saying the reader he four years into my time here.  So it wasn't until the 80s, you know '82 in that conference.  I would rather it came out in '79, so '82 is three years beyond that publication and you know, I was doing something very different.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4985.89,5042.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.  You kind of nailed your colors to the mast.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5042.63,5045.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5045.57,5045.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Academically speaking, at that point.  And then of course you went to Penn after that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5045.65,5052.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, right, and that is where I was able to do more women's studies.  I actually was chair of women's studies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5052.42,5070.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And you're involved with women's studies here as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5070.08,5070.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  No, I was chairing English here.  I mean, all my classes are cross listed but then I hired, the first year we hired, did any hiring, I hired the person who is now the chair of women's studies.  In the English Department, now she's taken over.  I knew she would be a good person to do that, but I actually haven't and I'm you know, on the faculty.  I mean, I'm listed on the faculty but in fact I you know, had little to do.  I have had, in the past, women's studies, but just because I was chair of English.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5070.82,5110.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  When you were at Yale, was there much push amongst the junior women like yourself, for institutional change?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5110.04,5123.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The institutional change was more the problem you know, just that, the rungless ladder.  Had there been any chance to change that, and yes.  I mean, there was a you know, everyone was aware and we were you know, the institutional change was to be able to get questions of gender into the curriculum, which was the most important thing, I think.  Being able to teach power and gender, and then that was easier.  The women writer but also you know, just to get a set of theoretical terms.  It's not just women's studies, you know gender studies, and understanding all of that.  That was the institutional change I think, is to change it substantively.  That's where well you know, there's that scholarship and that's what we joked about at the Rewriting the Renaissance conference, was scholarships.  You know, sisterhood is powerful, scholarship is powerful.  And so we were moving on from once activism, to try to really change the history of the world, I mean history itself.  I mean you know, you don't change an individual institution.  You don't change Harvard to make more women around to do the same old stuff, but to radically change the entire framework of knowledge.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5124.55,5214.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5214.83,5214.97"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Of knowledge itself, and that has happened.  I mean, that has happened and it's possible to talk about all these things now.  People object to it you know, arguing backlash and blah blah blah, but it really has -- it was interesting.  I was on an appointment (inaudible) tenure, head of the community around here.  You know, it oversees everything.  It's (inaudible) so we even have to do the Wallsten, the medical school, really boring, vile.  Anyway, when the science professor was talking about Watson, you know Watson.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5214.99,5248.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5248.24,5248.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Watson and Crick, and he got the Nobel Prize, and then Rosie, I forget her last name.  Do you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5248.9,5255.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Rosalyn Franklin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5255.2,5255.3"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Franklin, right.  And they guy said Watson, Crick and Franklin.  There is a woman who teaches in cultural anthropology here who is the same age I am on the (inaudible).  We both heard Watson, Crick and Franklin, and we looked at each other and she went.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5255.32,5273.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: (laughs)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5273.58,5273.64"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And there was a younger woman, who is a full professor, very distinguished, she said what are you guys talking about?  I said Watson, Crick and Franklin, and she said yeah?  I said you know, you don't know about the double helix and she was so mocked by Watson, the poor man, who was coming to a bad head.  (inaudible) and having to step down above everything.  I suppose he's only getting his justice but it does seem cruel.  At any rate, but to say that that was a big deal.  And then she went, that wasn't peace in favor of victory.  (laughs)  And it was nice, and it was just a nice moment.  Some were in the room and knew, and they weren't going to ever say anything about it.  You know, we've come a long way.  It's nice to know, which is not to say the world isn't going to hell in a hand basket.  Some things have changed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5273.66,5334.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I mean, this actually does kind of bring me to something that I'm thinking about.  The academy now, especially in the arts and humanities, there are a lot of women, maybe even 50% women, in medical schools now.  More than 50% of the students are women.  Some people have called that the feminization of the academy, and not always in a positive sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5334.66,5369.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5369.5,5371.13"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I just wondered --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5371.15,5371.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As soon as there are too many women in a place, that this is the status.  Well it's interesting that you should bring that up, yes.  And I think it's because the change or the professions.  I mean, it's not really the feminization of the academy but it's the feminization of the profession, because a lot of lawyers are now too.  So that the professions have lost status to the commercial interests.  It used to be the professions were of much higher cultural capital status than the people that just made a bunch of money, but who were cultural capital.  Women were cultural capital.  Women were just playing capitalist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5371.89,5411.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now the capital, let's have all the capital, so it was all the capital, and I do think it's -- yes, that has -- that's always the case.  That's always adjusted, and that gets us to huge, huge, huge changes in politics and economics and just the globalization, it's gargantuan, the forces.  But I think in a way, it's kind of you know, the ways of talking about the crisis, the crisis.  The feminization of the academy is not only the women are joining up and succeeding now, it's more than 50% and therefore it's suppressing the cultural capital in the place, but the men are opting out in the pulling apart of the elites, away from the very model.  There's an awful lot of men that are getting left at the bottom, and women are able to stay in the service economy.  They'll be the last little remnants of the middle class.  I sort of see it in a much bigger demographic move.  I guess I'm again, like I said, I don't mind.  You know, what's wrong with teaching a class of all women.  That doesn't bother me at all.  They're good people.  And let's hope that things will get a little bit better.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5412.23,5497.57"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think too that the -- it would be interesting to know.  You know, the big brouhaha here at Duke, I don't know if you know much about the fallout from the lacrosse case here, but that there was a groups of humanists, 88 faculty members, who signed an ad in the Chronicle here, you know, the student newspaper, supporting minority students who felt that the lacrosse problem had made everybody very racially intent against, because the accused were -- it was a cross, and three of the lacrosse people were black, and they were privileged white males, and the faculty (inaudible).  It's been a big cause celeb in the right wing press.  It's interesting now that I think of it.  No one has ever measured the problem where most of those silent were females.  You know, they all say it's just the elite.  They're all humanists, a humanist faculty that you know, all the people I know.  I mean there were men who had signed it too, are women, it's interesting, and no one mentioned that.  It was interesting.  You should look and see.  You should look and see if it's --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5502.6,5570.45"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Why do you think more women signed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5570.47,5578.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, A, there are more women humanists and you know, it was a woman who saying she was raped.  You know, they know every single woman faculty member here had been told by somebody they had been raped, if not having been raped themselves, in an academic environment.  So it seems more plausible it could be true that would be the case.  At least they're certainly sympathetic to the fear it raises, just the allegation, and the tensions of that, so they would have been more sympathetic.  So I would think would be the case, but I'm not -- no one has ever said.  One of the reasons why I bring it up is that the culture wars in academia, in the humanities, the culture wars are going to get worse, I think, because the ideological conservatives are losing real political power.  When Bush goes out of power, so they're going to have to retrench back into the academia and recreate the culture wars again.  I think lacrosse is the beginning of the process.  Duke is -- it was one of the places for the flashpoints, and this is the early sign.  Although it's interesting, none of those right wing bloggers had said they were all a bunch of women.  No one.  You know, there's a certain kind of gender bias to it, whereas I would think the ADA would you know, at least 50% is going to be women.  I do know two men who signed it but the rest of them were female.  There are a lot of people start going on the defense.  Well that's interesting that not a single person said, I've been reading the book.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5578.56,5682.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5682.73,5682.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I had a horrible argument with a friend of mine, and he told me I had a closed mind about it, that I need to look at the other side.  So that I'm reading the worst book on the other side, and it's just the worst guy has not just said, they're just a bunch of females, or he's attacking every single one of them by name.  But you know, talking about their kooky work.  (laughs)  It's horrible and funny at the same time, but he hasn't said they're all women.  Weird.  He said many of them were African American.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5682.81,5715.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's funny.  What do people say when they say that feminization --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5715.69,5723.42"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Some people say well that's just the way it is.  Others say, are actually --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5723.44,5729.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Happy?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5729.47,5730.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Optimistic.  I think an awful lot are also concerned about it, because men are dropping out of it.  It's happening all the way down through education.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5732.23,5744.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yeah.  It's not so much that there's so many women.  It's that the men are opting out, and I think it is that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5744.54,5751.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yeah.  They're bunching at the bottom.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5751.04,5752.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5752.51,5754.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: And they're opting out altogether at the top, and certainly there's -- and with that comes a detraction from the professions.  It happened in the church, but on the other hand, you could argue that the churches would be dying, especially Episcopalian churches, if it wasn't for the female priests.  Maybe one could look at it that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5754.08,5779.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, I don't think the fact that men opt out of something is necessarily bad.  It really -- I don't think it is.  I do think that the disaster cap -- I just finished reading the only male decline, I'm just asking about the shock factor, the disaster in capital rise of disaster capitalists, and I do think that that global movement has -- you know, that's lawless, total lawlessness is deeply profound and problematic.  I'm not sure that that's something that has anything to do with gender.  Usually, men have wanted to play by the rules and made the rules to play by, and women have not made up the rules, they can make it up as they go along, but this is just shear brutality.  It's just bad, but maybe (inaudible).  Do you know what I'm talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5779.75,5838.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Yes, yes, the story of -- I've read the reviews.  I haven't read the book yet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5838.81,5842.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: OK.  It's just staggering, it really is.  It's a brilliant book.  It is a brilliant book.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5842.73,5854.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Well I was going to ask you what are the greatest challenges facing female academics today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5854.6,5858.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I suppose it's the greatest challenging that's facing anybody today, you know any academics today, is to try to reconstitute a public sphere.  It's hard to do at a private institution.  (laughs)  But I seem to be here.  It's funny I you know, we just hired somebody from the University of California at Berkeley, Jose Saldivar, and he came up to me and he said, did you notice the Bears? He still roots for the football game, did you notice the Bears were winning, and then they'd always drop the last few games, and I said you know, I saw them, they made it to you know, as a public institution, made it to the front page of the US News World Report.  So you have the University of California at Berkeley football player on the front, and I said that is just weird.  You don't expect to see that school mounting a decent football team.  So the public's fear.  You know, I'm very aware of trying to save those universities.  What needs to happen is they need to be supported like private institutions, which is their alumni give money, start giving money, so now I'm getting a lot of stuff for the university.  Every day is more stuff, but deservingly so.  I mean you know they say faculty makes so much less than the state faculty people, they make so much less than people in private schools and it's you know, sort of the league versus the public, the institution.  That I think, those institutions need to be saved.  I'm very aware of it because it's interesting that Dick Brodhead said why would Duke, of all places in the south, be the place that women rise to national prominence.  And I wanted to raise my hands, it was like convocation, this is a big first inaugural lecture.  Take questions from that.  I wanted to say, go to UNC, Chapel Hill, it's the oldest state school in the country.  You know, there's a tradition here that means that this elite place can take off, because it's the research trying to compare it too.  The research triangle was here before the big, you know, Duke bit.  At any rate, I think that both the public and the private need to look at (inaudible), because the public sphere is shrinking, and I think that that's what one has to do is to try to sort of tamp down the greed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5859.05,6018.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, just tell people being greedy and entitled, it's not going to make you happy.  Look and see what the (inaudible) says.  You know, this woman said, I had to go and give the lecture to distinguished chairs of Duke, a little show and tell studio with other distinguished professors.  Luncheons, and so I was there on September 17, 2001, so I had to go up the weekend of 9-11.  I, you know everybody was getting ready to go to war and I said, well I teach Chuacer, I teach the Knight's Tale.  Chaucer says, in the Knight's Tale, in the general prologue, that if you go to war in a holy land, you go and do that in peril to your immortal soul, and I'm here to tell you that that's what I study and that's what Chaucer has to tell us, and if we go to war you know, a holy crusade, we do so at the peril of immortal soul.  And I think that's what humanists have to say.  We're the only humanities department, because history is a social science.  So we're the only humanities department and frankly, they don't really have an extensive history that teaches history, that teaches history, black history.  You know, you have to do in a major, a sense of the past, because the shallowness of this moment was -- is inhuman.  It's inhuman, it's totally inhuman, because it seems to be that technology has changed everything.  There are still people who can reason there's so much we can know about, and how things are going to go wrong.  (inaudible).  Mercenaries.  You know, mercenaries.  Chaucer has the right theory; become a mercenary and that's bad.  You know, if you fight inside your ideology that's OK, but if you go outside your ideology and fight for money, that's bad.  And it's just today, you know just today in the newspaper.  I get to teach Chaucer and say mercenaries, do you guys know about black water?  Somebody said ooh, that's a cool name.  Well let's break down that road.  So I do things like that all the time, it's so much fun, and they pay me.  So I think that's what the academia is.  American academia.  I mean, let them come on back to the academia and let's fight it out, let's try to say you guys have really destroyed this country, and let's hope you don't destroy the world.  I feel very passionate about it.  It's like coming back to the moment, when the women faculty says -- votes for the strike, you know for the free speech movement at the University of California.  I think it's still that same, that's -- the university has to be that place in a culture, and if the Republicans you know, the ideology, the ideologues are going to come back, where you can fight, this -- the pendulum is going to swing in this lacrosse things, which poor Dick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6019.96,6223.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It was a pretty amazing welcome back he got anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6224.46,6232.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: How do you mean?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6232.26,6233.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Well, he hadn't been long and Duke won and then the whole business blew up, isn't that right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6233.69,6238.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh no, it was two years yeah, right.  No, he's being reviewed right now.  You know it's the fourth year of his five year leg, and I'm sure he's not going to have any trouble, then it's -- Paul Frye (sp?) says, why would he want to take it on?  (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6238.28,6276.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Did you ever, yourself, think of going up the administrative ladder?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6276.29,6280.4"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  As I say, I'm working my way down the administrative ladder, because I'm DUS now, just for return because the new chair is desperate.  He said Maureen, when you told me to do less, he said it was the most important job in the department.  I said yes, I was at Yale so I know.  Had I ever wanted to?  No.  I don't have -- it's like I couldn't go into Sproul Hall, because I would have socked somebody and got myself in real trouble.  I am too irascible to be an administrator.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6280.4,6315.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you're an administrator, I think the best idea that an administrator has got, who is the wonderful man at Harvard, who was president four summers, who was a renaissance scholar, a great renaissance scholar.  He was hospitalized.  Do you remember that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6316.06,6337.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: No, I don't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6338.03,6338.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: He's a wonderful Sidney scholar.  At any rate, he had such a big heart.  He was very -- the President of Harvard.  When he was Dean at Princeton, which he was before, there was some student demonstration, and so a student hauled off and socked him, and knocked him down, and he stood up and he said, rubbing his jaw, \"Do you feel better now?\"  That's what a really good administrator is.  It's somebody who absorbs it and stops the friction, and I couldn't do it.  I really -- I could do it for a little bit, as chair, and that's what I did do here, because I knew that's what I was supposed to do, but I couldn't go on and do it.  In order to be able to do those things really well, you have to be interested in the tool that you need to wield to do the things you want to do, which is power.  And I don't like power so much, that I don't want to have to be involved.  I'd much rather be in this position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6338.65,6398.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: Do you think that's a female thing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6400.1,6401.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  I've seen lots of females be very powerful, I mean do very evil, powerful, horrible things.  No, I don't think so, I really don't think so.  I really don't think so.  I do think the female thing is to try to do something in a slightly different way, and don't go on to...  I think, I don't want to do it.  I just don't want to do it.  It's not, it doesn't look like (inaudible).  I think I do a lot where I do what I do do, and I think I'm better at doing that than I would be doing something else.  This is what I'm supposed to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6402.71,6457.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's interesting that Nancy Vickers is the head of this place.  The big president of the women's college would be very hard to turn down, if anybody had ever asked me, but I don't have the...  You know, I know what people are who can do it really well, and she doesn't like power either.  She's one who's helped me see you know, that that's what I don't like, and she says it's very wearing because a lot of people can hang in here and do this because they really like the perks of power.  They like to walk in the room and everybody go (gasps) you know, so and so's here, just not even knowing who so and so is and really caring who the person or anything like that.  It's just the position walks in the room and everybody is oh, it's exciting, oh we're really important because so and so's here.  You know, there's that little sort of moment of power, and then of course there's the down side of it is that so and so walks in and they've got power and I hate them.  You know, it's so that you're not getting people's response to power without having to know you.  She said she doesn't like it and, therefore, she doesn't have the normal support that a lot of people do who get into this position.  I don't think Dick does either, I really don't.  I don't think he cares about the power so much.  He really wants to be liked and you know, he's deeply moral about what he thinks division, because he becomes with the undergraduate experience at Yale, which I meant to say, there was moral horrors going on all the time.  (inaudible).  So that's you know, I've been to DUSs.  When I arrived at this place, there was no place for the DUS.  There was one secretary's desk.  That's the only presence the undergraduates had in the English Departments, is the secretary's desk, because the DUS was everywhere.  This whole office.  Excuse me, but the undergraduates you know, pays the freighter in any of these places, let's change it.  So that's kind of you know, it's beyond gender, although we call -- all the women around here are you know just, oh the boys.  You know, we go to an English Department meeting, you know so it's not like we're not sisters together, but we don't have to even think about it.  It's a wonderful thought.  We get to be witches and (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6457.26,6624.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  So I hear, I saw the wormy bowl.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6624.14,6626.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The wormy bowl.  You saw the wormy bowl.  She's a Yale undergrad, Priscilla, a really brilliant, fabulous, brilliant person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6626.63,6638.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: I wished her joy of the worm anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6638.56,6641.25"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Joy of the worm, yes very good, very excellent, excellent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6641.27,6644.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: How would you like to be remembered?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6644.87,6647.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: How would I like to be remembered?  It's interesting.  I want to be remembered as the kind of teacher that Morton Bloomfield was.  I remember Morton Bloomfield as being a great teacher, and this is how.  Elaine Pagles (sp?), do you know her name?  Elaine Pagles was in a graduate school and we -- I said oh Elaine I just -- you'll love this.  She was writing on origin, had an allegory somewhere from Morton, and we were having a little -- we were talking about our last papers, sort of a dinner over at Morton's house.  So I said do come.  He was a great teacher.  And so we had our -- she was there, and we had our little reports and ate dinner and chatted.  Then we were walking back.  She was staying at the Divinity School dorms, which was right close to where Morton's house was in Cambridge.  We were walking back and I said, well what did you think of it?  She said well I don't know, I wasn't all that impressed.  I said, he didn't really seem all that brilliant to me.  I said oh, well let's go out and have a drink or something and she said, oh no, no, I'm sorry do you mind?  I knew we were going to go out and have a drink, but I just finally figured out what I'm going to write in my dissertation, because he asked me this question and I finally figured it out.  And I said, that's a good teacher.  And she went oh.  She said, well I'm going to go write that down.  I said fine, OK bye.  You got my point though didn't you?  That's the kind of teacher I want to be remembered as being, that's it.  And maybe -- I mean, I know that about Morton.  I'm not sure anybody else does, but I want somebody to say that.  Juliette Fleming, she's this wonderful woman who teaches attorney college, she said how did you do it without getting in the way?  She says, I get in the way of my students all the time.  How did you do it and not get in the way?  I said well Julie, no one gets in your way you know.  I mean I just yeah, that sounds good, you know because you're brilliant.  But you know, that is -- the Elaine Pagles moment was, that's how I'd like to be remembered actually.  No one's ever asked me that.  That is how I would like to be remembered, as that kind of a teacher.  You know, where somebody comes in and says all right yeah, oh that's interesting.  I always feel bad that I -- the dissertation looks a little too close to align (inaudible).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6648.09,6794.72"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: This is a nice moment to stop.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6795.31,6801.39"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  OK, thanks.  What time is it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6801.41,6803.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: It's 8:00, coming up to 8:00.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6803.81,6805.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: OK good, I haven't made you late.  Can I take you somewhere?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6805.94,6808.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: No.  I have to go and retrieve the car from --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6808.13,6810.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The Ryan Center?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6810.68,6812.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER: The Ryan Center.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6812.67,6812.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/67336/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"MAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, should we meet tomorrow, or is this enough?\u003cbr\u003eEnd of Interview with Maureen Quilligan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6812.83,6818.63"}]},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ru_1051_2012-a-051_quilligan_maureen_edited_transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Interview with Maureen Quilligan\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Well it's looks as if it's recording, which is good.  So can I just mark it?  It's Maureen Quilligan, and the interviewer is Florence Minus, if you can hear her, and we're at Duke University on October 30, 2007.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Good.  Well, you've asked me to say something about my background.  I did do my undergraduate work at the University of California at Berkeley in the 60s.  I do remember one of the most wonderful moments of my life, which is quite I guess imprinted on me as to what a university should be, was when the students had gone out on strike during the free speech movement, and the 800 students had been arrested and carried bodily out of the Sproul Hall.  So I had seen my roommate be carried out by a big, burly policeman.  I had decided not to go in and sit in myself because Joan Baez had explained that you have to do it with peace in your heart, and you had to be a pacifist about it.  I was a fiery person that knew I couldn't if you know, one of those burly policemen had laid his hand on me, I wouldn't have been able to go limp, because I was not a pacifist at heart.  So I went home and came back the next day and went on strike.  \r\n\r\nThe moment I remember was when there were 20,000 students standing around the University of California at Berkeley, at Sather Gate Plaza, waiting for the faculty to vote, whether or not they were going to support the student strike.  I don't think it was a roll call, but I think they did count out loud.  We were standing around, the faculty was meeting in Wheeler Auditorium, and they were counting the votes.  When it was clear it was going to be a majority of the faculty was going to support us in our strike, this huge roar of the students went up around the whole university.  I can see the sky and the mountains and the Campanile and Sather Gate, to this awesome moment, and that's what I thought academic life was all about.  (laughs)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So that's when you made your choice?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, it was very interesting.  The class I was striking, that I did not go to when I found out that the students were being arrested, and then I went in and saw my roommate be carried out, and then struck, was Stanley Fish's Milton class.  I said, well Milton would have gone on strike, so I'll go on strike.  Stanley Fish did say, he was there teaching the class because he was required to do that as part of his duties of professor, because they had not yet voted to support the strike.  He asked the students why they were there.  Well, I wasn't there because I figured Milton wouldn't be.  I thought that one read one's literature and one made ethical and political decisions that day, and they fully informed your choices.  So I thought it was all one whole pieces.  And I think very much, that that particular moment in my life was probably one of the reasons why I took the job here at Duke University, which was to try to save the English Department that Stanley Fish had created.  He'd taken a fine, you know, sort of regional department and turned it into a premiere department, and then they had said they wanted someone to come in and help put the place back together again.  It was sort of a no-brainer for me.  It was hard to leave the university because I was very, very happy and there was a fabulous renaissance group, but it was that moment of what, not that Stanley Fish himself ever really understood.  We disagreed about what that moment was in the history of American academia, but he was a great undergraduate teacher.  He built a fine department.  We were doing what we were supposed to be doing even if we didn't agree, and that's one of the reasons why I thought I would come here.  So that was a very compelling moment.  It was funny, because I went off to Harvard and --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: When you were at Berkeley as an undergraduate on an MA, was there any sense that this activism also included feminism, or did that come later?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: That came later.  Yeah, that came much later, thank you.  Good question.  No, it didn't.  Some professor once said to me, and I can't even remember who said it, trying to be nice, at Berkeley, said -- it wasn't Fish, although he did say some rather strange things.  (laughs)  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=0.0,314.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But he did say to me at one point, I hope you won't be offended Ms. Quilligan, we were all on last names.  It was very polite and formal in those days.  Now I hope Ms. Quilligan, when I first knew I was going to have this job, coming out to what David Lodge called Euphoria U -- he didn't say that, he said the University of California at Berkeley -- I was in New Haven and I had an idea of what the typical California co-ed would look like, and I hope you won't be offended but you were a she.  Now the very funny thing about this story is that my friend was sitting in the back and she said, \"Oh you are so wrong.\"  Now had she stopped there it would have been all right, but then she said, \"The girl sitting right next to her is.\"  (laughs)  And indeed at one point, this very, very beautiful sorority girl, who happened to have brown hair at the beginning of the term, came in with this gorgeous, perfect blonde coif, and she really did come into her own at that particular point.  It was, we all knew what we were talking about, alas.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So, were you brought up in Connecticut?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, no, no.  I was brought up in Southern California, in Los Angeles.  So I'm a typical valley girl.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And your family, was there academic --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My dad was a professor of pediatrics, so he yeah, was a nice middle class, academic oaf.  He didn't practice as a doctor.  He was a professor and a researcher about all of this.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And what about your mother?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My mother was a homemaker, and then went and got her real estate license, things like that.  So it was a nice, sort of Southern California -- I was very happy to get out of Southern California.  I'm horrified my daughter is there.  She lives in Los Angeles right now and works for Walt Disney.  I can never escape.  (laughs)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Well, I think that's where we're all ending up.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: In a Walt Disney cartoon somewhere.  She's very happy and she's very smart, and she actually went to Yale, and she's with a guy whom she met at Yale.  So I guess they're OK.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Was there an expectation for you as a girl, that you should succeed academically when you were at home?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: There were four girls, and I was the most like my father.  I had wanted to be pre-med and do doctoring, and he said, if you go to a medical school, I will not support you.  If you go to graduate school I'll help.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Why was he so against you going to medical school?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Because he'd seen too many women doctors not use their educations, because they stopped and went home and had a family.  He thought, and he was probably right, that it was easier to coordinate a college professorship, rather than going through the whole medical school stuff, you know internship.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: When you were at Berkeley, were the women graduate students taken as seriously as the men, in terms of ultimate career and profession?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I had one wonderful woman professor, Adrienne Koch, who taught a special junior seminar for advanced humanities kids.  I was the only girl in the class, and she was the only professor I had.  That was an interesting moment, to be the two women in the class.  I remember she had us over to dinner, a bunch of undergraduates at the University of California at Berkeley.  I walked in the door and her husband said, \"Where are the other young women?\"  At that point, we all sort of looked around.  We'd forgotten that I was the only girl in the class.  That's what I was going to say, is another professor said to me Maureen you know, \"Ms. Quilligan, you don't seem to know you're a woman.\"  I remember how perplexing that comment was.  I also had a fabulous TA, a woman TA, and so I had two very good role models.  There were women in the University of California faculty who were eminent women; Dorothy Metlitsky Finkelstein.  I know these names right?  Ooh, I'm just blanking on the other one.  There was another very important woman of that same era.  I had it but it's gone.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It will come back.  So there were role models around?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, there were role models around.  There was Adrienne Koch, there was Dorothy Malitsky, there was hmm hmm hmm hmm, she's a poet, a very important woman.  They were very eminent.  They were fewer, but they were taken just as seriously.  If you wanted to take yourself seriously, you would be taken seriously.  I married someone that I met, actually in Stanley Fish's class, and we had a lot of trouble.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=314.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The trouble we had was the trouble of my career needing to take second place to his, and my resentments of that, and the distress we had in trying to negotiate my very deep and profound commitments to my career and my success at it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So this would have been in the late ‘60s.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: In the late ‘60s, right, exactly.  '62 to '68.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So really, there's still that feeling of the ‘50s maybe in America, that women had to do priority.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I first thought well gee, I'll go on and get an MA, and I'll teach at a junior college.  You know, it was sort of that sort of thing.  Then, when I got my masters, I had an oral, and I was offered a fellowship on the basis of that, to do PhD work at Berkeley.  I had already said I would get married to someone, who had a fellowship at Harvard, and I remember Larry Ziff saying to me, \"Oh, so you want a man more than you want an English department.\"  I said well, I'll go and teach in the Boston area.  So I made the decision myself.  I could have -- you know, this is before commuting.  So I said that I would apply to Harvard, and I did, and then I got in.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So that clears up actually, one question I was going to ask you.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Why Harvard?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Is why you chose Harvard.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It was Harvard because my then husband, my first husband was a classicist, and that was an excellent place to go.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: What was the situation for women at Harvard, as a graduate student?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, I had a very good fellowship.  I had a far better fellowship, and that was one of the problems; I had a far better fellowship than my husband.  It was the Ford Foundation, or maybe it was just that he -- whatever, never mind.  I'm not going to even go there.  It was a problem.  So I didn't see that it was problematic at all.  I did have Morton Bloomfield, who was very nice and wonderful, and a very supportive dissertation advisor.  I had two.  I had a renaissance and then Morton was my medieval advisor.  Once I finished my degree and what I was getting at and he said, \"Well you really are serious about this aren't you?\"  You know so it was, one didn't just assume you were serious, one assumed that they weren't, and then it was some sort of surprise and pleasure at the revelation, you're really serious about this aren't you.  I was used to that, because a lot of people weren't, and it wasn't expected.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: One of the things that struck me is the number of women who did make it in academic life at that time, a little later, are in face medievalists, and people have said to me that Bloomfield and Talbot Donaldson, at Yale, were actually --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Very helpful.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: -- really actually quite gender blind when it came to intellectual things.  I just think it's an interesting little, and I often wonder why that should be.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, with Morton Bloomfield, actually he was very sweet.  I went off to Oxford to do a year's worth of work with J.A. Burrow, which was really wonderful, sitting (inaudible) and reading me the manuscripts was just the most wonderful thing in the world.  I'm still a renaissance person, but it's my only wish.  Morton Bloomfield nominated me for a junior fellowship at Harvard, and they said they would not accept it, the nomination of a woman, and he was very upset about this but it didn't go through so.  He became very sensitized to things, and he was gender blind to begin with, but then he saw the injustice of it and on the basis of that sense of his injustice, the injustice he'd run into himself when he wanted to nominate a woman.  He was made the chairman of the committee on the education of women of sort of the unfortunate economics cow, (laughs) and I think that sensitized him a lot.  I mean, he did a real, honest to God study.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So when would that have been?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: That would have been in 1970/71.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Before affirmative action?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yes.  We were also, the graduate women's organization, in the process of Harvard trying to figure out what it was going to do about women, it was thought that perhaps Radcliffe ought to take the graduate women back, and the graduate women's organizations was founded to try to explain to people that would be very retrograde.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=600.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so we did a lot of big scholars, we did a lot of research, and discovered that the number of fellowships and the amount of money that was given to women, as soon as gradually moved from being Radcliffe to Harvard, that they were equal citizens, and that it would be very retrograde and problematic if the way that Radcliffe was going to re-identify itself was to take the graduate women back.  And then it completely folded and became just the Radcliffe Institute, but of course, having Drew Faust come out of being president of Radcliffe, the Institute, now becoming the president of Harvard, that was -- the old network was really excited when that happened.  It was fabulous, it was really fabulous.  I actually knew Drew very briefly at Penn, so she was a fabulous person.  Anyway, so Morton, I think, was just in his own soul, gender blind, but he was also very politicized because he had to do some work and face up to it, and was responsible for some of the institutional adjustments that Harvard did make.  I'm also wondering if that wasn't because D.W. Robertson was so misogynist, and that sensitized.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Really?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know, because Morton said he was.  He said, how could like D.W. Robertson's preference to transfer and I said well, it's doing interesting stuff about the relationship between the iconography and the Romance of the Rose.  And he said OK fine but you know, he doesn't like women at all.  I said well, I don't care.  I'm just doing the scholarship, I don't have to know him.  You know, that made me interested in Harvard.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So, I'm assuming then, that your dissertation didn't have any feminist --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, and it was interesting because when the book got to be published for the Cornell Press, very vastly revised because I just did medieval renaissance allegory and for the book, you know all the way up to 20th Century.  So it was a big difference.  I used the reader he, and the copy editor said why is the reader he?  Then answered her own question, which was, well I guess for these sorts of text, the reader is he.  And it's very, very interesting, because then I went on to -- it was interesting, my scholarship and my activism were not together, although I'm actually just right now teaching a graduate seminar on allegory, because allegory is popular by these very powerful females.  Gordon Teskey has this very interesting argument about the nature of personification.  Barbara Newman has a very interesting discussion about it, the gender personification and allegory.  So we are now talking about that, because I think that's probably why I was so attracted to it, without even knowing it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So when you got your dissertation, when you were through with your PhD, you were launched on the job market.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And was Yale your first choice?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  Well I mean, I never thought in a billion years you know, whatever.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So how did you get the job at Yale?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Dwight Culler came up to Harvard, to Cambridge, and interviewed the top women, just women, causing resentments with the men.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Do you think this could have had to do with affirmative action?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think it had to do with the fact that this was 1973, and they had just gone co-ed in 1969, and they had a class worth of women to through, and they realized they needed to have more female faculty.  So Dwight came up to hire women.  My husband has written a little -- a funny academic book, an academic novel, so he's going around looking for visible women, but Dwight Culler was doing it at this early -- not so visible women.  They hired three that year, and it was interesting because we all knew what Drew began, talked to him it was fine.  One woman was offered the job and she accepted, Penny Lawrence.  Penny, you know from Lawrence-Fitzgerald, Lawrence now.  I went around and talked to a bunch of other people because I didn't think I was going to get the job, and then they called me down to have an interview, and I don't know if I drove down with Penny.  I know I drove down with Penny and we came together.  So I must have gone by myself.  It was interesting.  I went into Dwight's office and the chair of the office, and I was talking to (inaudible), and I can't remember who else was there, but then Marie Borroff came charging in the room and she said, \"Why wasn't I told about this?  I'm on the search committee too.\"  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=900.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I said oh dear, oh no, too bad.  I'm thinking that you know, she's having troubles, not that I hadn't seen it before.  I was very sympathetic to Marie Borroff's not being told about the meeting, about this particular interview. \r\n\r\nAt any rate, yes I was offered the job, I was very surprised, and I was happy to take it and did.  And then Penny and I drove down together and started teaching.  In the very first academic meeting I had at Yale University was with a group of junior faculty we were collecting, who were going to be teaching English 25, then it was.  I think it's 125 now, you know the Chaucer to whatever, I teach that today, to this very day.  The person who was running the discussion was just somebody they'd asked, who had done it the year before, so please lead this new crew through the ropes, and it was Dick Brodhead.  I remember sitting there thinking, oh my God, I can do this.  This is what I signed up to do.  Yeah, this is what I want to do.  Penny was going on about the old man and the partner's tail and putting on the new man.  I remember that conversation and I thought you know, when Dick called up to get information about here, I said oh Dick, it will be just like the days, if you get to be president.  It will be like those fabulous days, and it's been downhill ever since that first meeting, but that was fun, that was really great fun.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So, coming from Harvard, where there was a very active women's group trying to change things, did you find a similar group at Yale?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: There was a similar group at Yale.  I think they were trying to get women's studies started.  Because I'm not working in modern things, I generally have tended to sort of fall outside of that, and I wasn't doing any work.  My scholarship had not yet become focused on gender, and so I was a little bit beside, but it was sort of like, oh I'm glad people are pushing, because of the need to.  I was just going to do my job the best I could, that was what I had been hired to do.  Somewhere around in there, I discovered the Orwellian, the question of power and gender.  I remember I wanted to teach a class called power and gender, and I was told by the director of undergraduate, the director of DUS that somebody had objected to using the word gender to predicate of persons, that it could only be predicated of nouns.  They were terribly distressed that I was going to be stopped from teaching this and I said, oh, well that's interesting because really what I want to talk about is the odd way of the pronouns in Sir Philip Sidney's Arcadia, he makes the pronoun change.  So he calls him her, you know, Pyrocles, and so I want to talk about the -- because that seems very strange to us, you know what is biological gender, what is fictional gender, and the DUS said, would you please go talk to John Hollander, who was the fellow who had objected, and so we had the conversation about Arcadia, and John got fascinated by the gendering of things like that.  When does language even take on gender?  You know, when does -- so he was going off on a romp and needless to say, I taught the course.  You know, every sort of step of the way, it was easy.  Somebody once asked me, how do you make women sensitized to questions of gender and political inequality?  I said you just ask them what their experience has been.  He was terrified.  He was in the Nixon White House.  He was terrified when I said that, like you don't have to do anything to persuade anybody because all they have to do is, as Christine Pisani said, is to look at their own experience.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: When you came to Yale, had the theory wars already broken out?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah.  They were starting to break out.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And where did women fit into all of that?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It's funny because allegory was a big [Damanian?] term, and Barbara Johnson was, I remember, going to teach a class on allegory, and I had been teaching a class on allegory.  Barbara Johnson is a big [Damanian, Deridian?] you know.  So gender didn't play into the theory wars, because anybody -- \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1200.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you know, because there were women theorists who were really -- I mean, Barbara Johnson was one of the best around, but she was younger.  Shoshana Felman.  And because psychoanalysis was so large a part of it, because psychoanalysis understood that gender and sexuality was important.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Juliet Mitchell.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Juliet Mitchell, yes right.  Right.  So the issue of women.  There were a lot of women in the English Department, there had been a lot of people hired, and there were a lot of junior faculty.  There were fewer senior faculty, and I was a little struck, to be perfectly frank, that Dorothy Metlitsky, who was married, had come to Yale because she was married to Finkelstein, was in a second class status, which she had not been at the University of California.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So she came --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As a spouse.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And effectively demoted, right.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But not demoted because you know, but yes.  I mean, it was just a very subtle sort of thing, and that disturbed me more than the young things, you know being younger, because the young men weren't treated any better than the women really, to be perfectly frank.  I mean it was all, when you were junior faculty, you were in deep.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Of course, that must have been something to do with the Yale tenure system or lack of it.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yeah.  The rungless ladder, right and so the rungless tenure ladder, although they did tenure some people.  They tenured one, Margie Ferguson, so from that group.  They tenured Harriet Mann and Paul Fryer around that same time.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Did you -- when you came into Yale, and you were there ten years, I think.  During that time, did you have any expectation or hope that you might be tenured there?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Only because Marge Garber told me I didn't have a chance, and I'll forever resent it.  Because I think she wanted someone to prevail, and she had been so hurt.  But no, to be perfectly frank.  I job hunted all the time, every single time, and it was very painful but not at all surprising, that Marge would be tenured and I would not be tenured, because she was someone who had done degrees at Yale.  For good or ill, there is a very, very familial commitment to the people whose work you've known for a long time.  It's taken me some time to figure out that's really what it was all about.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Because actually, the surprising number of them were there as undergraduates.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: All the way through.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Absolutely, with no -- I mean, I remember Landon Hammer had told us, as a junior, and I told him, I said listen, you would have to go elsewhere for graduate school.  I'm not going to write you a letter of recommendation for Yale.  He got into all the other places naturally, and he came back to Yale.  He was sitting behind me at somebody's lecture and he said well, you're here.  Of course he's gone through the whole thing.  I actually use him as you know, the sort of poster boy for an argument if you want to stay in any one place, although it has not hurt him.  I mean, it's just that nobody knows how good he is.  He's by far that best -- I shouldn't say that.  One of the very best undergraduates I ever taught in my entire life, and that other people should be so much more famous now than he is, even in the same class, they've gone on to fame and fortune because they went off elsewhere.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Right.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: (inaudible).  He may still be there, and the new book is supposed to be spectacular.  At any rate, that, I think, is more the question along the gender.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: That's interesting because certainly, the investment in the collegiality is very strong.  Did you find that the women, and there were fair numbers you said, of women, junior women especially, in the English Department by the time you came there, that you made common cause?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think it was somewhat common cause.  Certainly, some of the work that we -- you know, when the scholarship, when feminism became part of the scholarship, it was a group effort.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1500.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I know when Nancy Vickers of Bryn Mawr College, and I were sitting around the table.  It was actually my husband at the time who said, you guys are talking about gender, why don't you have a conference about it?  He was the one who suggested it, gender.  And then we had the conference in 1982 and Margie was involved with that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: That was Rewriting the Renaissance.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And then Rewriting the Renaissance came out in '86.  So insofar as it was scholarship that we were doing, trying to open up renaissance studies by you know, placing the renaissance studies and new studies together, and that was an important collective, a very big collective operation, but not something that was only just women.  They had a lot of men in that conference who wanted to talk.  Not make it the no man's land.  You know, there was sort of another little phase, women who are scholarship.  So it was a collective operation.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: In looking back, do you think there's a single moment or event that made you realize that your research was going from work in general to a very specifically feminist perspective?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, I think it was that conference.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Was it the conference?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Because I did the power and gender class.  I was also supposedly writing a book, which I'm still supposed to be writing called, When Women Rule the World, the Glorious 16th Century.  And it was when Nancy and I were talking about that book at a dinner table conversation when we said we could really get everybody together to talk about you know, really whereas gender.  She was (inaudible).  Let's get everybody together working on gender, and a lot of the men are too.  So it was that, and it was fascinating because here's the moment.  We were having lunch in was it March, 1982.  We were having lunch with the conference and a telephone call came in to Memorial Hall.  We were having lunch in the cafeteria and I walked out to the payphone or something like that.  I can't imagine what it is.  That's what I remember.  There was no cell phones, so it was some weird thing, where a friend of mine, who had gone to graduate school, whose undergraduate was (inaudible).  She ended up being the deputy editor of the New York Times Book Review, and she said, I have a bet with the editor here.  We've got this book that was written in 1405.  It's an allegory by Christine de Pizan and I said oh yeah, yeah, she wrote that sort of thing that [Rosma Tuv?] talked about.  I don't know this text though, the Book of the City of Ladies.  She said would you review this?  I have a bet, five bucks, that the editor said I can't get a publishable review out of this.  And I said OK fine, give it to me.  So, I couldn't say no to that because of the conference I was in.  \r\n\r\nSo the conference ended and we started trying to find someone to publish this collection of essays on this, and every single person that we said, every publisher we talked to -- you know it took four years to get that published because no one wants to read a book about renaissance topics by a number of different authors.  I mean, I cannot tell you -- I mean, everyone had to have one after that book.  It was fun.  It was fun to see that happen, that change happen.  So I went home and the book came in the mail, and I remember standing on the porch in Connecticut, opening up the bag, and pulling the book out, the reading copy of Earl Jeffrey Richards' translation of the Book of the City of Ladies and reading the first part, where Christine de Pizan is doing the reading scene, she's reading a book, and then she stops and says I'm going to sleep, and then to have a dream that her mother calls (inaudible).  And I just went oh my God, it's an allegory when her mother calls her to supper.  You know, this is so different and I think that was -- and then I wrote the review.  Actually, I came across a review quite recently, an old crumbled old yellow thing.  I said boy, the person who wrote this had to write a book on this.  And then I stopped, you know, backed up and did some work.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I've asked junior a member of faculty.  Several people have said to me that there really was a major divide, not necessarily a gender one, between junior faculty and senior faculty, so much so that there was at least one member of the senior faculty who just said they didn't even entertain junior faculty to dinner.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=1800.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Was that true?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yes, yeah.  No, it was hugely different, but it was because you know, well it's kind of -- yes, yes, absolutely.  I think it was interesting.  I was just talking to someone here today or maybe a couple of days ago, about the provost that plays golf with an assistant professor, and somebody was saying that he shouldn't do that, he shouldn't play golf.  This person is going to have to come up for tenure and he has to make a decision about it, and he just shouldn't socialize.  And I said, oh please.  You know, as bad as it may be and as horrific as it may be, you know when people let that future sense of pain and anguish stop them from creating a community, it's problematic.  It has happened at Yale, and you can see why people will say, I can't invest in these people because they're not going to be around.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you're going to be really hostile to me and feel really personally betrayed, and so I'm just not going to invest in it because we can tenure these people.  \r\n\r\nIt turns out my uncle was a chair of OB/GYN at the same time and he left.  He left Duke Medical School because he saw he wasn't able to tenure any more, and that was just useless because you put all this stuff into people and then you can't do it.  It's just a cuckoo way to run a university.  I was surprised to hear him say, at that time, that it was the same in the medical school, and that it was really panned you know, because I thought it was all (inaudible).  I now, from this point of view, understand why.  I mean, it was a human decision.  But as Dick said, when he took the job and then came in and came to dinner with the (inaudible).  He was seated next to somebody who was just going through the tenure process, a wonderful, brilliant woman, and he turned to me and said, \"You can tenure people here.\"  And I said yes, you can.  She's in the clear, she thinks she's going to get it.  But he said, that's wonderful, and I said well you know, come on Dick, you know people have been tenured at Yale.  But the assumption is that it doesn't happen.  It's the unusual thing that it does happen, and so you have to put up with that.  I think it's unfortunate.  You know, Duke's made different decisions.  Had you asked me anything about this many years ago (inaudible).  But no, there was a real divide and it wasn't gender.  I don't think it was gender, and it was -- well it was gender insofar as gender difference is different.  You know, it creates a gender difference.  The young turks, the boys, and the young men had to behave in a certain way or not.  You have the girls that have to behave in a certain way or not.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: You were married when you were at Yale.  Do you think --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I was married, divorced and got remarried.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Oh, right.  So I just wondered if maybe it was more difficult for single women, the whole social stuff.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I don't know.  I don't really know.  We didn't talk about things like that.  The single women I knew didn't seem to think it was more difficult.  I guess I wouldn't want to speak for anything that you know, they might have said.  I mean, if you want to talk to them.  I'm unable to talk about their experiences.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Absolutely.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But I don't -- I wouldn't say they were singled out for sexual harassment, because some single women did complain about certain compromising things, but they all rather thought it was their own doing, pretty much their own doing as well.  Then, you know that was before the notion (inaudible).  And there were a lot of very, very flirtatious people who totally control (inaudible).  I don't think it was -- I just, my daughter has just been involved in censuring someone for sexual harassment.  I said, that isn't sexual harassment in my book and she said mom, you're so 20th Century.  So I understand sexual hara-- I mean, I don't have the, you know I'm so old that you know, some of the things that happen with respect to sexual harassment.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2100.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I said, OK, you know, I do understand that women are in very, very powerless positions, but why don't we just...\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah, I think the world has changed tremendously in thirty years.  What kind of relationship did you have with the senior women in the department?  Was Marie the only one, or Dorothy?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Me and Dorothy.  Dorothy was fine, but she was kind of hankered by her second-class citizenship.  Marie was fine.  It wasn't until oh my God, I'm going to blank on her name now, Pat Spacks, Patricia Spacks came as chair.  She was just a breath of fresh air.  I mean, it was amazing because she, I remember at one point, you know we were carrying on a conversation, because everything was so covert and covered, no one ever mentioned any names or you know.  There was a lot of this dancing around, and she came in and said, I don't understand what you people are talking about.  What is this?  I was like, oh my God, there's a human being in the room who is acting like a human being.  She was fabulous.  She had us over to dinner and wasn't afraid.  She was wonderful.  She really was wonderful.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I spoke to her last week actually, so I'm hoping that she'll do an interview.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh good.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: She said she would, actually.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, good.  She was just amazing.  It was a great thing to have her there.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Was it her personal style, or was the style partly because she was a woman?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, because she was a woman, and her personal style.  A woman and also your critical practice too.  I mean, she was formerly women's studies.  I mean she understood, this is just cuckoo, the secrecy, whatever, and I think they all loved her too, because they made her chair immediately and of course then she had to start keeping all the confidences and stuff like that.  But she remained a human being, although I have a feeling that sometimes she was hurt in some way but you know, that's just the way life is.  Life is full of slings and arrows.  But the fact that she left Yale, I don't know what that story is.  It could have worked.  I'm sorry to think she was hurt, because I think she was a wonderful chair and did excellent work.  I mean, she couldn't change much about that difference, but that's just --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: So do you think that was Yale's culture, and not just in the English Department?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh absolutely, because my uncle complained about it in the medical school, and that's really pretty far away from the English Department.  Yeah, it was all across the board, certainly in the humanities.  And the culture, I mean the theory wars have something to do with it too, that they were sort of pitched battles.  The way in which the theory people were so defensive by saying, well you haven't read so and so.  I mean, it was all these late breaking French theorists that you had to pretend you knew something about, because you couldn't say, in any conversation, oh, I haven't read that.  What is the citation?  You know, and that's what sort of Pat Spacks would do.  \r\n\r\nOh, I remember actually, when I got to Penn, I was having a conversation with Barbara Bernstein Smith, who actually recruited me up here.  She said, well what are you writing on?  I was doing -- I think I just -- no, I had, it was finished and published.  I was publishing Milton Spencer and I said well, it's in relation with Milton Spencer, you know Harold Bloom says blah blah blah, you know, Milton's relation to Spencer.  And she said, oh does Harold say that?  Oh, I didn't know, what book is that?  So that somebody could say what book did Harold Lloyd write about.  I went ooh, I am in a different place entirely, when I got to Penn, that you could say well I haven't read that and not just want to commit hara-kiri.  You know pretend, you have to hide that you had read it.  Oh, it's fun.  We were young.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: You did a write, and actually I've got it here, the undergraduates.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, you reminded me of it, which I'd completely forgotten about them.  Am I contradicting myself here?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I don't think so.  The tone of it is really about how women are often afraid to fail, or the fear of failure.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: To me it's like the fear of failure and the price of success is something --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: It's the same yeah, OK.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.  And I just wondered why you wrote what you wrote at that time.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well the fear of failure, that was something.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2400.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The current President of Radcliffe had, and I can't remember her name.  She was an anthropologist, and she had written about the fear of failure.  Women are more dominated by the fear of failing, therefore they don't take on risks.  That was a big deal at Harvard when we were there.  So there was that behind me, but also too -- did I write this -- when did I write it?  After I was long gone.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It was in '75/'76.  It was right in the middle.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, right in the middle of my being here.  Well, then it's probably from that.  Oh, that was Isabel McCaffrey.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Was that the Harvard woman?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, simply because she was a woman.  That's one question I wanted to ask her, how did you do it?  How did you do it?  You have your PhD, you have a good job, you are married.  I was falling apart.  How did you manage?  I had a question I wanted to ask you.  Women still feel there's something special mysteriously when a woman is doing this and say, oh isn't that cute.  I'll have to try it out.  Try (inaudible).  You don't really realize, you don't really remember.  See I just said that here today, that really could.  I remember then Morton and thinking it's so puzzling.  It scared me.  Good old Morton.  I'm being very honest here.  The nightmare is...\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: You realize of course, we can't understand a word you've just said.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know.  I'm so sorry.  I'm reading what I wrote in 1975, so that's -- no '76, so that's 31 years ago.  I'm interested that, and I now realize that it also probably scared me.  I had nightmares when I'd go to interviews for graduate schools and have people evaluating me in terms of my personal appearance.  Dress regal, fingernails trim.  So I know that all those people sitting in judgment, I mean my dreams really mean.  The President of Radcliffe once told a women's group that when she was offered the job, her first response is to say no, I can't do it.  Then she looked around her office, caught some of the articles, how women choose to -- there, that's why.  Picked up the phone and said yes.  She'd been afraid that she saw it and chose instead to succeed.  Hearing her confess honestly, her own hesitations, not to take the job offer from a small college or decide to come where the competition is heavy, exciting, the pressure is always on.  Pressure has caused dislocation in my personal life.  I was getting divorced.  But now I have learned that only I can legitimize my own right to do my job with all the energy and intelligence I can muster.  I don't need to ask somebody else.  I think I can do a better job of being a woman.  (laughs)  Cute.  I see more and more -- I'm sorry.  I see more and more women be successful, the more ones sees success as failure and don't fear their failure, try for that, it's easy.  Interesting.  And it was the woman.  I'm sorry I can't remember her name.  She was the first President of the new Radcliffe that got constituted without the undergraduates.  Actually, she oversaw that transition and she was very honest about that, and it's interesting.  I do remember that during the -- you have some dream, because the dream was coming across country and being interviewed.  You know, it's one of those weird moments, when I first saw Yale, and I saw the hospital.  That was the building that was in my dream when I was out in California.  \r\n\r\nI had never been in New Haven but I you know, I dreamt that place, and it was funny because it where I gave birth to Maggie.  So it was a daughter, so it was a very interesting moment.  Actually the dream had gone on, to you know, I pushed the button on the elevator, you know when I flunked the interview, to get to probably Yale graduate school.  I had gone down and gone to the bottom of the elevator and drowned and died, and the water came and I floated to the top, and then I saw a child pick up a plate of bubbles.   So it's so weird that I should think that Yale, the New Haven Hospital is what that place looked like, and that's where Maggie was born.  It was very weird.  When I first came and I saw it, I had the interview and oh my God!  That's my dream, I'm coming to get the job.  Are dreams prophetic.  It was very funny.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: You often do have déjà vu in dreams.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes, yes.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It is a phenomenon.  I've experienced it too.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But that was uncanny.  So the question, the cost of failure, was when my first marriage.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=2700.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"His name is Frank.  He had gotten a job in the Classics Department at the same time I had gotten the job at the English Department.  This was a one-year position, and we had every expectation that we'd be put on a regular ladder position, but something happened.  We thought we were going to commute, as we should probably have commuted, but I sacrificed.  You know, I worked for a year and take the Berkeley thing.  We were going to commute and he was you know, quite angry with me.  At any rate, that was what was happening.  There was strained on the marriage that couldn't survive my wanting to succeed.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.  And you know, pressures on young academics are just so great anyway, but you compounded it by having a child.  What was it like to be pregnant in the English Department at that time?  I mean, did anybody advise against it?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, no.  Well, I'm just kidding.  (laughs)  I'm sorry.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: No one sat you down and say, whatever you do, don't get pregnant.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, no, no, they didn't say -- well no, there was a woman who said don't come around pregnant.  I mean you know, don't show up here looking like that.  You know, I was nine months pregnant.  She was born -- it's so cute, I have to tell this story.  I was going to walk around in my great scarlet rose, at the graduation, nine months pregnant.  But she was born graduation day.  Actually, she made it up to me by giving me another Yale graduation, when she graduated, which is cute.  She didn't want to be part of that parade.  She wanted to be her own self in that parade.  So somebody did say to me, it was a woman, who was non-ladder faculty.  She said, \"Don't show up around here.\"  And I kind of went -- I mean, one didn't show off one's belly, but I do think it was -- and there was another woman, Toni Healy (sp?), was pregnant at the same time.  So there were two of us, and we did bond over that.  She's meeting us in Toronto.  It's Mrs. Healy, as her students call her.  So there were two of us, so that probably made it better, and we delivered quite close in relationship to each other, so we clearly got pregnant not knowing the other one was.  So that was -- I had thought about that, but that probably made it much easier with two of us together.  No one said anything.  It was just a great big...  I remember when one of my male students realized I was pregnant, you know it registered.  You know, because people don't look at professors' bodies at all.  I was eight months pregnant but you know, they hadn't noticed.  \r\n\r\nNo, nobody said anything about it.  It was hard, it was really hard.  I remember when Margie and were both turning in materials for tenure, and Margie said, I just had this terrible dream that I was having to iron the baby.  You know, taking a hot iron and hot ironing a baby.  It was awful, and it was some horrible thing.  I'm not even sure I got it right.  Maggie actually had an infection in her mouth at the time and I said, I have to go because my mind's -- you know, this child is registering my stress about things and I have to go home.  You know so, it's not just metaphorical, it's not just a dream.  It's you know, someone else is going through this.  That was a sad moment, when I realized how much it had cost her.  But you know hey, it's not Baghdad, it was only a little bit.  There were no bombs dropping on us.  I mean, she's OK, but that was a bad month.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: What were the students like, because you must have been teaching the early -- not the first cohort maybe, of women undergraduates for certain in the second or third.  What were they like?  Did you ever -- did they pay particular attention to you because you were a woman?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: My first class, my very first class I ever met at Yale was at 8:30 in the morning, was freshman composition.  This was 1973, and this large, African American boy got up, slammed his hands on the table and said, \"I'm not staying in this class.\"  And I said, \"Why not?\"  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3000.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh God, the first thing that happened.  And he said, \"There are no women in this class.\"  I sort of peered around and he said, \"I thought I came to a co-ed school.\"  I sort of peered around, you know and they had long hair at that time, so I said oh right, oh right, there aren't any girls in here.  It was the freshman football squad, because that's you know, they have to take an early morning class, and he stormed out.  And I said, \"Don't I count?\"  And he said, \"No ma'am, you don't.\"  It was really very funny.  So that was a cute little moment, and those boys could not write at all.  Oh, and people say, don't you think students can't write as well as they used to and I say, it's been uphill.  I mean, ever since my first class, those kids were really, really bad.  They were fun to teach, so my first class all men.  And then I had another class that was really quite wonderful, and I called them all by their last name; Ms. so and so and Mr. So and so, and then they all came to me and said, you're the most uptight person we ever met.  Could you please call us by our first names, because -- I said, I was doing it to show you some respect.  And they said no, we can't talk to each other because we don't know each others' first names.  We can't say hey mister so and so you know or miss so and so.  So that's what I remember.  \r\n\r\nDid the women seek me out?  I know that one girl came in, in that very class.  She was actually captain of the crew team, so she was quite an athlete.  She came and said, I'm going to be late getting my paper in, I'm sorry, because I was raped.  It's my fault.  I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  So I said, anybody a little time on weekly papers who got raped.  You have to bring a doctors note.  I'm sorry.  So there was that.  I think I even tried to say it's not your fault you know, blah blah blah.  I didn't have it worked out yet.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I wonder if you'd been a male professor, if she would have said that.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think she might not have, and I was -- it's too bad.  Now I know what I should have said.  Are you going and doing this?  You know, the kit, you know do you really want help, let me walk you over there, blah blah blah, which is what I'd do now, and subsequently have.  It has happened again, alas it has.  I also made an error too, from you know, an African American student who came, and was missing for -- who came back after being gone from class for a long time.  I did then, I said that she should go to you know, get a psychiatric workout and then you know, you'd be able to stay in the class.  I said, why don't you go, and I didn't know that that is totally (inaudible).  And she goes, oh great.  You know, you can do whatever you want, and she asked to come back in.  I was wrong.  I might even, you know.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And of course, there weren't the protocols in place.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  When I called up the dean and I said so and so came in, and I said this and this, and she said, \"Oh my God!\"  Run, do you have her, is she still there.  You know, this college dean wanted to save this person.  It was interesting, it was really very interesting, but I learned.  Subsequently, I had a fabulous graduate student who, the dean, the Graduate Dean at Penn called me up and said, so and so hasn't don't thus and such, and I'm going to drop her from the rolls.  I said, oh don't do that.  She's down in the Bahamas, saving her sister from prostitution and drug addition.  He says yeah, she told me that.  Did you believe that?  And I said yes, yes.  I mean, wouldn't you do that for your sister?  I think of course that his sister would never be there but you know.  But that's -- she's brilliant, a very fantastic scholar now you know, so a very prominent person.  But I learned what you do.  So it's not just gender, it's a lot of other things that we deal with.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: When did the notion of mentoring kind of actively enter --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Everybody's vocabulary?  Well you know, as a junior faculty at Yale, you don't do -- you don't direct dissertations, you read them.  You just ask as readers on them, and then you teach graduate classes.  So the mentoring there was only in terms of the teaching.  I remember somebody called me up and said, I remember that Spencer class.  We seemed to be doing something different every day, and that was very useful.  What did you have us do, because I've got to put together a class.  So there was that kind of thing, but we weren't involved with directing dissertations.  \r\n\r\n\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3300.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I didn't mentor until I got to Penn, which I did immediately.  You know, the teaching at Yale was very, very serious, very serious.  It was a great treat to get from Harvard, where people were very unserious about their work, to Yale, where they were very serious.  You know, the down side was they're too serious, but it was infinitely to be preferred to this rets autour and this, I'm so brilliant and I don't have to do anything kind of thing, and this staggering response you know, through and through the entire university, which is not to say that I mean, they said ach, we don't have to teach our students anything.  Everybody here is so brilliant that they just make their own way.  And so we just stand back and we don't get in the way, that was what was said.  And then you know, when I got to Yale, you know, you can actually teach people thing.  You know, we can actually tell them that this is what you do when you first go to the library, then you do this and you do this.  You don't have to just figure it out.  Everybody doesn't have to rediscover the wheel.  So there was that mentoring that I learned, just because everybody did it, and it started as early as that first meeting with Dick Brodhead.  I remember just having dinner with a bunch of Yale buddies.  It wasn't Dick.  It was Penny and Paul Tribes, people like that.  Maybe it was Dick, I don't know.  We were talking about individual undergraduates by name.  You know that's the thing about Yale that's so spectacular, is their commitment to their students.  They know who they are from the time they're undergraduates.  They're just not a mass of people moving through that you don't respect.  They're deeply profound, brilliant individuals whom you care about deeply and know by name, and talk about when you go out to dinner.  And then it's a world-class research one university.  I mean, it's a great undergraduate education.  So that was my sense of the mentoring at Yale, and it didn't have anything to do with gender one way or the other.  Everybody was doing it all together, and I persist in thinking it's just a great program, you know undergraduate.  That's why I wanted -- I was happy to have a -- make a go.  I wanted her to go to women's college but when she -- she went up to the women's college, she was at Wellesley and she said mom, everybody's telling me here that if I got into Yale, I should go to Yale.  And she said, I think that's what I'm going to do.  I said, (inaudible) stand there and say I won't go to Yale.  I wanted her to have a women's college, because I do think that it's occurred to her now, I do, even with all that, while I watch girls just back off.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: In a mix, in a co-ed?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, a co-ed situation.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Even today?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Huh?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Even today?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  Oh really today.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Even in a subject like English, where probably most of the majors are female.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, right, not in that but you know, there's a certain couple of very pretty girls, who know they're being watched by the two or three guys in the class, who will not do some things men wouldn't normally do.  No, it's true.  More and more, -- well, I had an all girl class and it was very different.  You know, it was different and that was a wonderful time, and I don't think it would...  I remember once, proposing to teach a class in the focus, special focus program, and the people here really upsetting me deeply about it.  They wouldn't let me name it what I wanted to name it, because it was too feminist, and they said you're going to end up with a class of all women.  I said well, \"What's the matter with that?\"  You know, as if that's the end of the world.  I said, why don't you ask Nan Koenig about that?  You know, I don't mind teaching a class of all women.  It would be sort of interesting.  I actually never had -- there was one honorary guy, who was African American.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And this was here at Duke?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.  It was about power and gender and women gladiators and stuff like that.  But they've always been pretty much split.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: When you came to service, what was the expectation in Yale about being on committees?  Was it because there was so many -- was it the case that there were so many committees, so few women, that women were spread rather thinly across the committees?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think women were spread rather think across the committees, but I was not at all unused to being the only female in the room.  So it didn't bother me, I mean it was sad.  We were hoping to change it and it was starting to change, but that wasn't unusual.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3600.0,3900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And ah, I you know, everybody sort of sat on their committees and did their committee work.  You know, you just sort of you know, the department needed to lend out a certain number of its people, we'll send you on missions to do that, and so we all just did the certain things, and we did it without any compensation.  Here at Duke, if you were asked to do something, we'll give you a class off.  It's the weirdest culture, and so very, very different from Yale, which you know, not only my first, but I really do sort of hold everything else up to it.  Ian and I actually talk about it (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Did you serve on committees inside the English Department?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yeah, yeah right, yes.  The last one I served on was a very interesting thing, where the faculty had just seen the administration grow so large in relation to the faculty that you were disturbed by it and wanted to find out why it happened.  That was the very last committee I served on.  It was interesting because there were graduate students on the committee, and they were very eager young men actually, there was no women.  To see them, see how academia worked and to sort of see the scales fall from their eyes, you know was an interesting process.  They were sort of outraged and it's like yeah, oh yeah, but you can still do the things you want to do here.  You know, what you want to do is teach, make your own mark, and most people are well intentioned and then they're trying to give it all up.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Did the women get onto the senior committees?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I don't know.  I don't really know, because there would only be senior women on the senior committees.  The real divide was not gender.  The real divide was senior faculty, junior faculty.  So I mean that was the total business.  No one could -- very few people were going to be able to succeed in making the transfer and indeed, almost as many women as men did it from the cohort that I saw, but that was precious few and it was you know, it was you know, the people who didn't get tenure are a legion around running all the universities around the world today.  You know, it was a joke.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.  You must have been -- you would have been at Yale when Hanna Gray was Provost.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And then her year as President.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm, mm hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Did you form any impression of her?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As a?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: As an administrator?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Whatever has -- whatever impression I formed of her has been trumped by her relationship to my friend Nancy Vickers, who was President of Bryn Mawr, and Hanna was on the Board of Trustees.  So I heard a lot about Hanna and Hanna, this, that and the other thing, once giving Nancy wonderful advice saying, when you're president of an institution and you don't know what's going to happen, you be prepared for anything.  The very first day that she was President of Yale, or I guess she was Acting President of Yale, you know this was a notorious thing that happened.  Someone in the Spanish Department bit off another faculty member's earlobe.  She said, \"Who knew that I was supposed to deal with this.\"  You know, that's what she told Nancy and I said, \"Oh, I remember that incident.\"  And she said well, Hanna Gray was President and she had to deal with that.  She said so, I'm expecting anything.  So we make a joke that you know, Nancy is getting ready to stop.  She's retiring, so it's just under eleven years.  I said was it bad as biting off the earlobe and she said, I just wish they would bit off each others' earlobes.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It is interesting though, that so many women from Yale have gone off and done -- had very, very senior positions, presidential positions at so many universities, and I've been struck by that.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Alison Richard is at Cambridge and Susan Hock was -- and a number of others, and Kim Bottomly, who has just gone to Wellesley.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well I think that Yale has done the best job going co-ed, of all the Ivies.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Really?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Absolutely.  Absolutely.  I mean, I think you know, hiring all these women --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Why do you say that?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well making -- you know, saying we have to hire a whole bunch of women.  You know, that's when I got hired.  Not for affirmative action but because we thought these women undergraduates that we have to you know, show some mentors and role models to, and we just have to do it.  It's part of educating this population, which is different.\r\n\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=3900.0,4200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  Yeah.  I'm curious --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And they didn't cut down the numbers of people.  I mean, every other university just finagled it.  I mean, Princeton you know, mandated a 60/40 ratio.  Dartmouth couldn't -- you know, went on to the three session thing, a summer session, because they weren't going to educate fewer leaders of America.  That is, they weren't going to lessen the number of men, so they just added the women on.  Nancy was very good about that.  Harvard you know, constructed Radcliffe to keep the pressure entering women off.  I mean, there were a bunch of -- this is what GWO found out, was a whole bunch of Harvard deans sat down and said OK, we don't want to have to admit women, so let's start this little college over here.  How far away do we have to make it so the Yale faculty -- so the Harvard faculty can take the tram to teach the class, so the kids will intermix, and that's exactly how they figured out how far Radcliffe would be away from Harvard.  Radcliffe never had its own faculty.  They only could choose from you know, Harvard faculty.  That was supposed to be the great (inaudible).  So when Yale decided to go co-ed, they did it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Because some other women have said to me, not necessarily in the English Department, but women who were hired around the same time as you.  Well we knew we were there to make the numbers up.  That's their perception.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And to obey the letter of the law.  1972, the affirmative action, you know Title IX.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: But they knew -- but they saw it also as an opportunity.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh, absolutely opportunity, oh totally opportunity, yes.  Oh no.  I mean, we were fighting like crazy for affirmative action.  You know, Phyllis Rackin, who became my colleague at the University of Pennsylvania, you know, in 1973, when here suit against the University of Pennsylvania for tenure, that she'd been denied tenure because of gender.  You know, I mean that was a great, wonderful thing, so we have the law.  You know, so that if you worked hard, you know that you were given the opportunity.  You know, it was great.  What's interesting about affirmative action going in, because I really, I think Yale made its own commitment, and I think of the women's table as being an honest statement about...  I mean, it was a beautiful recognition of the facts, that you were going to turn into a work of art, embrace, and have a certain sense of humor about it.  And that's why I thought that you know, it was OK for Maggie to go to Yale, because I do think that they have made the best, the best commitment to equal education.  I mean, there's only so much a school can do.  It can't change all of society, but it can certainly make it open to women, and I think it did, and Maggie really wanted to go there for that reason.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Is it just -- you know, I say that because it's just interesting that people have different perceptions, whether it's to do with their own experience, and you only see through that prism.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I know it's interesting.  Margie's daughter went to Yale too.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yes.  Yes, I remember her saying that.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Was there a sense again, because again, in the 70s, there were rising numbers of women actually in the administration.  I mean Penny, for example, moved into administration.  Was there maybe a feeling that a woman could have a balanced life as a senior administrator, in a way that maybe it was not possible as a faculty member, or that there was a feeling that administration is sort of second class to research and scholarship, and therefore it was all right for women to do it?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think actually in Penny's case, I think she once -- I think it was adorable.  She said, I can take what I've -- the scholarship that I've done on a cart in a little, you know, chain that I have on a little model cart that I have on a you know, a bracelet.  What do you call it?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: A charm bracelet.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: A charm bracelet, and it was adorable the way she said that, that she didn't expect to you know, stand for tenure, because she hadn't done the work that you need to do in order to be a viable candidate for tenure.  And yet she had such incredible gifts for the university.  She switched tracks because she wanted also, didn't want to leave New Haven.  You know, it would have meant a different kind of you know, thing.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4200.0,4500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So it's not a research.  I don't think it was that it was lesser, certainly not lesser.  Many, many people think that you know, many people here, for instance, think that the administration is infinitely more important than being a you know, the old garden variety faculty member.  But the ah, but I don't think it was gender.  For instance, Chip Long had made the same adjustment into the administration.  I know Marge Garber thought possibly about doing that at the time, when she had to have a front in a sort of small place.  But you know, she, she wanted to continue to teach and one minute that she got to have -- at first she had already known that she was going to be willing to.  She had the option of going to Harvard and so on.  She was someone who you know, who was just before us and ahead of us, as a woman ah, but then you were all right, and we saw her go through a very painful process, very painful, very, very, very.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I haven't spoken to her yet, but I hope that -- I hope she'll agree to talk, because I'd really like to hear her story.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I think she would be a very, very good person to talk to.  She would know what the whole thing would have been like.  She was very interesting.  She -- when Penny and I came down together, Dwight -- excuse me, Dwight put us up with her, you know because she was a girl and here are two new girls on the block coming in.  So, go over and see her apartment.  I remember she had her galleys spread all over the place, it was pretty weird.  You know, she was very, you know she's been at this job two years and she's already got her book out.  We though oh, this is going to be fun.  (laughs)  She said, well I could have made it better, but I just wanted to get it out.  Then she said what she was working on and I didn't know what she was working on it and said oh wow, interesting.  Who is that person?  I never even heard of this person.  It was a painter.  It was fun.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It's very easy probably, in academic life, to have one's confidence blunted easily.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm, yeah.  Well it's just, do you know you can do it, because you've never done it.  You just you know, barely finished your dissertation and here's all this other stuff, and it's what you've lived in and you admire it so much.  So it seems -- and you have to know so much.  It's so, it's -- and I think also too, there's you know, people weren't saying it's real easy you know.  They weren't telling us it was going to be easy and they were sort of making it look hard.  And ah, I'd just tell everybody it wasn't going to be easy.  You know, you have to plug away at it, but it's -- there's nothing serious about it.  You just have to get in there and do it, and it's a lot of fun.  And you know, when you're having a good time, you know just tell the stories of all the wonderful times you've had.  But they don't -- I didn't ever get a sense that my professors really, really loved it and enjoyed and you know, it would have been nicer.  But I think those were different days too.  It was very much a formal --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I'll apologize when I'm telling an anecdote to my class, because it's not really what we should be doing in there.  Oh no, go ahead and tell an anecdote, but it's usually germane, but it is a sort of humanizing you know, operation as well.  So ah, and, and it was, I guess incompetence.  Could we have loved it?  Yes.  Or there was a real -- I mean, as I say, the competitiveness of Yale.  It was very competitive, and I missed it when I got to Penn.  You know, people didn't really care.  You know, there was no -- the symbolic space was not you know, pulsing with you know, so and so said this and such, and that was interesting.  You know, it was real mellow.  You know, it was looser, it was different.  I remember once, when we got up to Yale, bending with Margie and John Killery (sp?) over a line of Morton when we were looking at this thing.  And we are just trying to see, as much as we can see, in these lines of Morton.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4500.0,4800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you know, John Killery and Margie Ferguson, they're coming up with great things.  You know, and I'd say something, and I'd come up with a good thing too.  And it was -- I remember bending back, because they were both still there you know, and I said oh, I've missed this.  I've missed this.  And you know, we were friends and it good kind of combat in a way, that was very wearing, very, very, very wearing, but it was exciting.  Didn't I say that?  Did I say that?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: You did.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I said that?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yes, you did.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The competition is heavy, exciting, the pressure's always on.  Yes, yes!  But ah, you could have a good time.  Oh and actually, I remember the point that I made, and John Killery then, he said oh blah blah blah.  And then John Killery writes something, and this is wonderful, he said oh you know, going beyond that sort of bromine, you know that platitudeness.  So I said what the line was, and it was -- he doesn't even know where he heard it.  I just had to laugh.  I said that was not a platitude John, that was very original.  Go find it in print someplace.  You know, it was very cute, very cute.  We had a laugh over that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Were you involved in the establishment of women's studies at Yale?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No, I wasn't and that was, as I said, it was sort of a presentist operation.  It's not that I wasn't interested.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: But that it just, because I was teaching medieval renaissance and me, and women's studies is a cross disciplinary, very presentist operation of sociology and science and humanities.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: So I was never asked to participate in the actual steering committees and all that stuff.  It's also very political and very social science oriented, and so it kind of -- I expected, because I had been an activist, you know also at Oxford.  I was in a Oxford Women's Action, which was a very different sort of thing, very funny, but I would have been happy to participate, but my academic interests were not useful to them, and so it went on without me.  Also too, you know Yale, at that point, was very department oriented.  It was hard to get outside of the department, and I very seldom did, except in the colleges.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I mean, there was plenty of chance to mix and match, but it was -- you know, residential college fellowships, that's when you went outside.  I discovered that the you know, so the people who were doing the women's studies were located in a much more modern period.  So, I don't know that -- and it didn't surprise me either.  As I say you know, I was really -- the first book I published while I was there.  I was there, I can't remember, four years, so I was still saying the reader he four years into my time here.  So it wasn't until the 80s, you know '82 in that conference.  I would rather it came out in '79, so '82 is three years beyond that publication and you know, I was doing something very different.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.  You kind of nailed your colors to the mast.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Mm hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Academically speaking, at that point.  And then of course you went to Penn after that.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, right, and that is where I was able to do more women's studies.  I actually was chair of women's studies.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And you're involved with women's studies here as well?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  No, I was chairing English here.  I mean, all my classes are cross listed but then I hired, the first year we hired, did any hiring, I hired the person who is now the chair of women's studies.  In the English Department, now she's taken over.  I knew she would be a good person to do that, but I actually haven't and I'm you know, on the faculty.  I mean, I'm listed on the faculty but in fact I you know, had little to do.  I have had, in the past, women's studies, but just because I was chair of English.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=4800.0,5100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  When you were at Yale, was there much push amongst the junior women like yourself, for institutional change?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The institutional change was more the problem you know, just that, the rungless ladder.  Had there been any chance to change that, and yes.  I mean, there was a you know, everyone was aware and we were you know, the institutional change was to be able to get questions of gender into the curriculum, which was the most important thing, I think.  Being able to teach power and gender, and then that was easier.  The women writer but also you know, just to get a set of theoretical terms.  It's not just women's studies, you know gender studies, and understanding all of that.  That was the institutional change I think, is to change it substantively.  That's where well you know, there's that scholarship and that's what we joked about at the Rewriting the Renaissance conference, was scholarships.  You know, sisterhood is powerful, scholarship is powerful.  And so we were moving on from once activism, to try to really change the history of the world, I mean history itself.  I mean you know, you don't change an individual institution.  You don't change Harvard to make more women around to do the same old stuff, but to radically change the entire framework of knowledge.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Of knowledge itself, and that has happened.  I mean, that has happened and it's possible to talk about all these things now.  People object to it you know, arguing backlash and blah blah blah, but it really has -- it was interesting.  I was on an appointment (inaudible) tenure, head of the community around here.  You know, it oversees everything.  It's (inaudible) so we even have to do the Wallsten, the medical school, really boring, vile.  Anyway, when the science professor was talking about Watson, you know Watson.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Watson and Crick, and he got the Nobel Prize, and then Rosie, I forget her last name.  Do you know?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Rosalyn Franklin.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Franklin, right.  And they guy said Watson, Crick and Franklin.  There is a woman who teaches in cultural anthropology here who is the same age I am on the (inaudible).  We both heard Watson, Crick and Franklin, and we looked at each other and she went.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: (laughs)\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: And there was a younger woman, who is a full professor, very distinguished, she said what are you guys talking about?  I said Watson, Crick and Franklin, and she said yeah?  I said you know, you don't know about the double helix and she was so mocked by Watson, the poor man, who was coming to a bad head.  (inaudible) and having to step down above everything.  I suppose he's only getting his justice but it does seem cruel.  At any rate, but to say that that was a big deal.  And then she went, that wasn't peace in favor of victory.  (laughs)  And it was nice, and it was just a nice moment.  Some were in the room and knew, and they weren't going to ever say anything about it.  You know, we've come a long way.  It's nice to know, which is not to say the world isn't going to hell in a hand basket.  Some things have changed.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I mean, this actually does kind of bring me to something that I'm thinking about.  The academy now, especially in the arts and humanities, there are a lot of women, maybe even 50% women, in medical schools now.  More than 50% of the students are women.  Some people have called that the feminization of the academy, and not always in a positive sense.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh yeah, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I just wondered --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: As soon as there are too many women in a place, that this is the status.  Well it's interesting that you should bring that up, yes.  And I think it's because the change or the professions.  I mean, it's not really the feminization of the academy but it's the feminization of the profession, because a lot of lawyers are now too.  So that the professions have lost status to the commercial interests.  It used to be the professions were of much higher cultural capital status than the people that just made a bunch of money, but who were cultural capital.  Women were cultural capital.  Women were just playing capitalist.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5100.0,5400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now the capital, let's have all the capital, so it was all the capital, and I do think it's -- yes, that has -- that's always the case.  That's always adjusted, and that gets us to huge, huge, huge changes in politics and economics and just the globalization, it's gargantuan, the forces.  But I think in a way, it's kind of you know, the ways of talking about the crisis, the crisis.  The feminization of the academy is not only the women are joining up and succeeding now, it's more than 50% and therefore it's suppressing the cultural capital in the place, but the men are opting out in the pulling apart of the elites, away from the very model.  There's an awful lot of men that are getting left at the bottom, and women are able to stay in the service economy.  They'll be the last little remnants of the middle class.  I sort of see it in a much bigger demographic move.  I guess I'm again, like I said, I don't mind.  You know, what's wrong with teaching a class of all women.  That doesn't bother me at all.  They're good people.  And let's hope that things will get a little bit better.\r\n\r\nI think too that the -- it would be interesting to know.  You know, the big brouhaha here at Duke, I don't know if you know much about the fallout from the lacrosse case here, but that there was a groups of humanists, 88 faculty members, who signed an ad in the Chronicle here, you know, the student newspaper, supporting minority students who felt that the lacrosse problem had made everybody very racially intent against, because the accused were -- it was a cross, and three of the lacrosse people were black, and they were privileged white males, and the faculty (inaudible).  It's been a big cause celeb in the right wing press.  It's interesting now that I think of it.  No one has ever measured the problem where most of those silent were females.  You know, they all say it's just the elite.  They're all humanists, a humanist faculty that you know, all the people I know.  I mean there were men who had signed it too, are women, it's interesting, and no one mentioned that.  It was interesting.  You should look and see.  You should look and see if it's --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Why do you think more women signed?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, A, there are more women humanists and you know, it was a woman who saying she was raped.  You know, they know every single woman faculty member here had been told by somebody they had been raped, if not having been raped themselves, in an academic environment.  So it seems more plausible it could be true that would be the case.  At least they're certainly sympathetic to the fear it raises, just the allegation, and the tensions of that, so they would have been more sympathetic.  So I would think would be the case, but I'm not -- no one has ever said.  One of the reasons why I bring it up is that the culture wars in academia, in the humanities, the culture wars are going to get worse, I think, because the ideological conservatives are losing real political power.  When Bush goes out of power, so they're going to have to retrench back into the academia and recreate the culture wars again.  I think lacrosse is the beginning of the process.  Duke is -- it was one of the places for the flashpoints, and this is the early sign.  Although it's interesting, none of those right wing bloggers had said they were all a bunch of women.  No one.  You know, there's a certain kind of gender bias to it, whereas I would think the ADA would you know, at least 50% is going to be women.  I do know two men who signed it but the rest of them were female.  There are a lot of people start going on the defense.  Well that's interesting that not a single person said, I've been reading the book.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I had a horrible argument with a friend of mine, and he told me I had a closed mind about it, that I need to look at the other side.  So that I'm reading the worst book on the other side, and it's just the worst guy has not just said, they're just a bunch of females, or he's attacking every single one of them by name.  But you know, talking about their kooky work.  (laughs)  It's horrible and funny at the same time, but he hasn't said they're all women.  Weird.  He said many of them were African American.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5400.0,5700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It's funny.  What do people say when they say that feminization --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Some people say well that's just the way it is.  Others say, are actually --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Happy?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Optimistic.  I think an awful lot are also concerned about it, because men are dropping out of it.  It's happening all the way down through education.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right, yeah.  It's not so much that there's so many women.  It's that the men are opting out, and I think it is that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yeah.  They're bunching at the bottom.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: And they're opting out altogether at the top, and certainly there's -- and with that comes a detraction from the professions.  It happened in the church, but on the other hand, you could argue that the churches would be dying, especially Episcopalian churches, if it wasn't for the female priests.  Maybe one could look at it that way.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yeah, I don't think the fact that men opt out of something is necessarily bad.  It really -- I don't think it is.  I do think that the disaster cap -- I just finished reading the only male decline, I'm just asking about the shock factor, the disaster in capital rise of disaster capitalists, and I do think that that global movement has -- you know, that's lawless, total lawlessness is deeply profound and problematic.  I'm not sure that that's something that has anything to do with gender.  Usually, men have wanted to play by the rules and made the rules to play by, and women have not made up the rules, they can make it up as they go along, but this is just shear brutality.  It's just bad, but maybe (inaudible).  Do you know what I'm talking about?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Yes, yes, the story of -- I've read the reviews.  I haven't read the book yet.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: OK.  It's just staggering, it really is.  It's a brilliant book.  It is a brilliant book.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Well I was going to ask you what are the greatest challenges facing female academics today.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: I suppose it's the greatest challenging that's facing anybody today, you know any academics today, is to try to reconstitute a public sphere.  It's hard to do at a private institution.  (laughs)  But I seem to be here.  It's funny I you know, we just hired somebody from the University of California at Berkeley, Jose Saldivar, and he came up to me and he said, did you notice the Bears? He still roots for the football game, did you notice the Bears were winning, and then they'd always drop the last few games, and I said you know, I saw them, they made it to you know, as a public institution, made it to the front page of the US News World Report.  So you have the University of California at Berkeley football player on the front, and I said that is just weird.  You don't expect to see that school mounting a decent football team.  So the public's fear.  You know, I'm very aware of trying to save those universities.  What needs to happen is they need to be supported like private institutions, which is their alumni give money, start giving money, so now I'm getting a lot of stuff for the university.  Every day is more stuff, but deservingly so.  I mean you know they say faculty makes so much less than the state faculty people, they make so much less than people in private schools and it's you know, sort of the league versus the public, the institution.  That I think, those institutions need to be saved.  I'm very aware of it because it's interesting that Dick Brodhead said why would Duke, of all places in the south, be the place that women rise to national prominence.  And I wanted to raise my hands, it was like convocation, this is a big first inaugural lecture.  Take questions from that.  I wanted to say, go to UNC, Chapel Hill, it's the oldest state school in the country.  You know, there's a tradition here that means that this elite place can take off, because it's the research trying to compare it too.  The research triangle was here before the big, you know, Duke bit.  At any rate, I think that both the public and the private need to look at (inaudible), because the public sphere is shrinking, and I think that that's what one has to do is to try to sort of tamp down the greed.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=5700.0,6003.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, just tell people being greedy and entitled, it's not going to make you happy.  Look and see what the (inaudible) says.  You know, this woman said, I had to go and give the lecture to distinguished chairs of Duke, a little show and tell studio with other distinguished professors.  Luncheons, and so I was there on September 17, 2001, so I had to go up the weekend of 9-11.  I, you know everybody was getting ready to go to war and I said, well I teach Chuacer, I teach the Knight's Tale.  Chaucer says, in the Knight's Tale, in the general prologue, that if you go to war in a holy land, you go and do that in peril to your immortal soul, and I'm here to tell you that that's what I study and that's what Chaucer has to tell us, and if we go to war you know, a holy crusade, we do so at the peril of immortal soul.  And I think that's what humanists have to say.  We're the only humanities department, because history is a social science.  So we're the only humanities department and frankly, they don't really have an extensive history that teaches history, that teaches history, black history.  You know, you have to do in a major, a sense of the past, because the shallowness of this moment was -- is inhuman.  It's inhuman, it's totally inhuman, because it seems to be that technology has changed everything.  There are still people who can reason there's so much we can know about, and how things are going to go wrong.  (inaudible).  Mercenaries.  You know, mercenaries.  Chaucer has the right theory; become a mercenary and that's bad.  You know, if you fight inside your ideology that's OK, but if you go outside your ideology and fight for money, that's bad.  And it's just today, you know just today in the newspaper.  I get to teach Chaucer and say mercenaries, do you guys know about black water?  Somebody said ooh, that's a cool name.  Well let's break down that road.  So I do things like that all the time, it's so much fun, and they pay me.  So I think that's what the academia is.  American academia.  I mean, let them come on back to the academia and let's fight it out, let's try to say you guys have really destroyed this country, and let's hope you don't destroy the world.  I feel very passionate about it.  It's like coming back to the moment, when the women faculty says -- votes for the strike, you know for the free speech movement at the University of California.  I think it's still that same, that's -- the university has to be that place in a culture, and if the Republicans you know, the ideology, the ideologues are going to come back, where you can fight, this -- the pendulum is going to swing in this lacrosse things, which poor Dick.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It was a pretty amazing welcome back he got anyway.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: How do you mean?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Well, he hadn't been long and Duke won and then the whole business blew up, isn't that right?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Oh no, it was two years yeah, right.  No, he's being reviewed right now.  You know it's the fourth year of his five year leg, and I'm sure he's not going to have any trouble, then it's -- Paul Frye (sp?) says, why would he want to take it on?  (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Did you ever, yourself, think of going up the administrative ladder?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  As I say, I'm working my way down the administrative ladder, because I'm DUS now, just for return because the new chair is desperate.  He said Maureen, when you told me to do less, he said it was the most important job in the department.  I said yes, I was at Yale so I know.  Had I ever wanted to?  No.  I don't have -- it's like I couldn't go into Sproul Hall, because I would have socked somebody and got myself in real trouble.  I am too irascible to be an administrator.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6003.0,6300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you're an administrator, I think the best idea that an administrator has got, who is the wonderful man at Harvard, who was president four summers, who was a renaissance scholar, a great renaissance scholar.  He was hospitalized.  Do you remember that?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: No, I don't.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: He's a wonderful Sidney scholar.  At any rate, he had such a big heart.  He was very -- the President of Harvard.  When he was Dean at Princeton, which he was before, there was some student demonstration, and so a student hauled off and socked him, and knocked him down, and he stood up and he said, rubbing his jaw, \"Do you feel better now?\"  That's what a really good administrator is.  It's somebody who absorbs it and stops the friction, and I couldn't do it.  I really -- I could do it for a little bit, as chair, and that's what I did do here, because I knew that's what I was supposed to do, but I couldn't go on and do it.  In order to be able to do those things really well, you have to be interested in the tool that you need to wield to do the things you want to do, which is power.  And I don't like power so much, that I don't want to have to be involved.  I'd much rather be in this position.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: Do you think that's a female thing?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: No.  I've seen lots of females be very powerful, I mean do very evil, powerful, horrible things.  No, I don't think so, I really don't think so.  I really don't think so.  I do think the female thing is to try to do something in a slightly different way, and don't go on to...  I think, I don't want to do it.  I just don't want to do it.  It's not, it doesn't look like (inaudible).  I think I do a lot where I do what I do do, and I think I'm better at doing that than I would be doing something else.  This is what I'm supposed to do.\r\n\r\nIt's interesting that Nancy Vickers is the head of this place.  The big president of the women's college would be very hard to turn down, if anybody had ever asked me, but I don't have the...  You know, I know what people are who can do it really well, and she doesn't like power either.  She's one who's helped me see you know, that that's what I don't like, and she says it's very wearing because a lot of people can hang in here and do this because they really like the perks of power.  They like to walk in the room and everybody go (gasps) you know, so and so's here, just not even knowing who so and so is and really caring who the person or anything like that.  It's just the position walks in the room and everybody is oh, it's exciting, oh we're really important because so and so's here.  You know, there's that little sort of moment of power, and then of course there's the down side of it is that so and so walks in and they've got power and I hate them.  You know, it's so that you're not getting people's response to power without having to know you.  She said she doesn't like it and, therefore, she doesn't have the normal support that a lot of people do who get into this position.  I don't think Dick does either, I really don't.  I don't think he cares about the power so much.  He really wants to be liked and you know, he's deeply moral about what he thinks division, because he becomes with the undergraduate experience at Yale, which I meant to say, there was moral horrors going on all the time.  (inaudible).  So that's you know, I've been to DUSs.  When I arrived at this place, there was no place for the DUS.  There was one secretary's desk.  That's the only presence the undergraduates had in the English Departments, is the secretary's desk, because the DUS was everywhere.  This whole office.  Excuse me, but the undergraduates you know, pays the freighter in any of these places, let's change it.  So that's kind of you know, it's beyond gender, although we call -- all the women around here are you know just, oh the boys.  You know, we go to an English Department meeting, you know so it's not like we're not sisters together, but we don't have to even think about it.  It's a wonderful thought.  We get to be witches and (inaudible).\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6300.0,6600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236/transcript/31939/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:  So I hear, I saw the wormy bowl.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The wormy bowl.  You saw the wormy bowl.  She's a Yale undergrad, Priscilla, a really brilliant, fabulous, brilliant person.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: I wished her joy of the worm anyway.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Joy of the worm, yes very good, very excellent, excellent.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: How would you like to be remembered?\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: How would I like to be remembered?  It's interesting.  I want to be remembered as the kind of teacher that Morton Bloomfield was.  I remember Morton Bloomfield as being a great teacher, and this is how.  Elaine Pagles (sp?), do you know her name?  Elaine Pagles was in a graduate school and we -- I said oh Elaine I just -- you'll love this.  She was writing on origin, had an allegory somewhere from Morton, and we were having a little -- we were talking about our last papers, sort of a dinner over at Morton's house.  So I said do come.  He was a great teacher.  And so we had our -- she was there, and we had our little reports and ate dinner and chatted.  Then we were walking back.  She was staying at the Divinity School dorms, which was right close to where Morton's house was in Cambridge.  We were walking back and I said, well what did you think of it?  She said well I don't know, I wasn't all that impressed.  I said, he didn't really seem all that brilliant to me.  I said oh, well let's go out and have a drink or something and she said, oh no, no, I'm sorry do you mind?  I knew we were going to go out and have a drink, but I just finally figured out what I'm going to write in my dissertation, because he asked me this question and I finally figured it out.  And I said, that's a good teacher.  And she went oh.  She said, well I'm going to go write that down.  I said fine, OK bye.  You got my point though didn't you?  That's the kind of teacher I want to be remembered as being, that's it.  And maybe -- I mean, I know that about Morton.  I'm not sure anybody else does, but I want somebody to say that.  Juliette Fleming, she's this wonderful woman who teaches attorney college, she said how did you do it without getting in the way?  She says, I get in the way of my students all the time.  How did you do it and not get in the way?  I said well Julie, no one gets in your way you know.  I mean I just yeah, that sounds good, you know because you're brilliant.  But you know, that is -- the Elaine Pagles moment was, that's how I'd like to be remembered actually.  No one's ever asked me that.  That is how I would like to be remembered, as that kind of a teacher.  You know, where somebody comes in and says all right yeah, oh that's interesting.  I always feel bad that I -- the dissertation looks a little too close to align (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: This is a nice moment to stop.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Yes.  OK, thanks.  What time is it?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: It's 8:00, coming up to 8:00.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: OK good, I haven't made you late.  Can I take you somewhere?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: No.  I have to go and retrieve the car from --\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: The Ryan Center?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER: The Ryan Center.\r\n\nMAUREEN QUILLIGAN: Well, should we meet tomorrow, or is this enough?\r\nEnd of Interview with Maureen Quilligan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48936/file/122236#t=6600.0,6818.71674"}]}]}]}