{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/db7vm43537/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Charles de Gaulle documentary interview, Circa 1987"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["mssa.ms.2004 (EAD ID)","MS 2004 (Call Number)","ms_2004_s08_b0254.u.mov (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["Circa 1987 (Creation)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["videocassettes_(vhs)","video/quicktime"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;818fd7b8-ee32-4740-8197-df3add94cb10 (Other Finding Aid Note)","A copy of this material is available in digital form from Manuscripts and Archives and online. (Altformavail)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["The materials are open for research.\n\nResearchers must register and agree to the Yale University Library User Agreement for Special Collections before accessing audiovisual material in this collection."]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/2091076"]}},{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Charles de Gaulle documentary interview, Circa 1987. Henry A. Kissinger Papers, Part III (MS 2004). Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University. https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/resources/5240."]}},{"label":{"en":["Preservica Representation Type"]},"value":{"en":["Access-3"]}},{"label":{"en":["Preservica Uri"]},"value":{"en":["/structural-objects/538d67e2-f17b-489e-94ca-2d2e6921ec1d"]}}],"summary":{"en":["https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;818fd7b8-ee32-4740-8197-df3add94cb10","A copy of this material is available in digital form from Manuscripts and Archives and online."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["The materials are open for research.\n\nResearchers must register and agree to the Yale University Library User Agreement for Special Collections before accessing audiovisual material in this collection."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/072/657/small/open-uri20200221-1535-m1kjzb_1582323300.jpg?1582305301","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20200221-1535-m1kjzb.mov"]},"duration":1794.3,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/072/657/small/open-uri20200221-1535-m1kjzb_1582323300.jpg?1582305301","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-yalemssa.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/072/657/original/open-uri20200221-1535-m1kjzb.mov?1582305300","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":1794.3,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ms_2004_s08_b0254_transcript.txt [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\u003e\u003e It would be best that you ask me a question that I would answer in such a way that the viewer can see it without.\n\u003e\u003e [FOREIGN]\n\u003e\u003e Dr. Henry Kissinger we would like first to have your opinion on the man de Gaulle himself. When you met him, his stature, his personality, the way he behaves.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=0.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWhat do you think of him when he appears for you for the first time?\n\u003e\u003e Well I met de Gaulle only a few times. On the occasion of President Nixon's visit to France. And on the occasion of President de Gaulle's visit for the funeral of President Eisenhower. When I met, the striking thing about de Gaulle was the way he dominated any room in which he stood.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=30.0,59.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nThere are only a few people in my experience who have that quality. That when you saw de Gaulle, even when he didn't say anything, he exuded a kind of charisma or strength that indicated that this was the center of the room. The first time I saw that was at a reception at the LSA in honor of President Nixon.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=59.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nI noticed it most strikingly on the occasion of the funeral of President Eisenhower. Where President de Gaulle arrived in the uniform of a brigadier general. At the reception in the White House and all our Liberal representatives, who deployed generals and principle and de Gaulle as a personality suddenly rushed for him.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=86.0,109.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAs if he were the only person [INAUDIBLE], and there were 60 other heads of state there. Including [INAUDIBLE] and Prince Phillip and leading personalities. And I had the impression and I hoped that de Gaulle would not move to a window, because the whole room might tip over and everybody might fall out into the garden.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=109.0,133.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSo he had this authority in his personal relations. At least when I could observe him, he was extraordinarily polite and he achieved this commanding presence not by a aggressive rhetoric. On the contrary, in the meetings that I attended with him, he was extraordinarily polite. Extremely well spoken. Not give in to idle chatter and it was dangerous at least for somebody in my position to say something banal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=133.0,178.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBecause he would not let that go unchallenged, but his challenge would be on high intellectual level.\n\u003e\u003e Lots of people have said too that he was Machiavellian. Do you think?\n\u003e\u003e Well, the question might be was he Machiavellian? Any statesmen has to be Machiavellian to a certain degree.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=178.0,209.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBecause after all, it is the art of statesmanship to make people carry out your wishes. Like persuading them by providing incentives and penalties, it is the management of man. So on that level it was Machiavellian. On the other hand, any leader who navigates an extremely difficult course such as de Gaulle's extrication of France from Algeria.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=209.0,242.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd the equally difficult assignment of then giving France a sense of confidence out of that seeming debacle. Such a man make requires extraordinary faith in something. Because let you believe in something, you do not have the emotional strength to do the manipulation needed to achieve the objective. And I think if one reads the last chapter of the de Gaulle's memoirs, the ones that had been written before he returned to power.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=242.0,277.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWhere he describes his version of France and what the countryside looks like from his country house. That is not the description of a conventional Machiavellian. But of course Machiavelli was not as he's described either. Machiavelli was a great believer in the unity of Italy. So in the broader sense of Machiavellian he was, but not in the conventional sense.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=277.0,310.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e Another point is his behavior, the way he managed with the American and lots of people said that he was much too rigid. Whereas the other French politicians sometimes were acting more smoothly with more gentleness with the USA, and maybe often more than the US. What do you think of that?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=310.0,337.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e There's no doubt that President de Gaulle treated the United States more challengingly than any previous French president. Then the question is, was this better for France, or worse for France, and was it better or worse for the alliance? I believe, in the long run, it was better for France.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=337.0,366.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd it was better for the alliance that de Gaulle acted as he did. In the 40s and 50s, when Europe was impotent and totally dependent on American help.\n\u003e\u003e It was natural for European leaders, including French leader, to go to Washington not as heads of government but as applicants within the American decision-making process.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=366.0,394.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd that was a very comfortable situation for an Americans. On the other hand, it was demoralizing for both sides. It produced a sense of impotence in Europe and it produced a sloppiness of thinking on the American side. Because we were not challenged by equivalent personalities. In the long run in relations among nations.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=394.0,420.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nNations will act consistently only if their actions reflect their perception of their national interests, or of the common interest. And that has to be something that is their decision. So to the extended nations come to Washington to learn what we want them to do they may be easier to deal with, but they become demoralized.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=420.0,448.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDe Gaulle wanted to restore France to a sense of its own interest and to its own role. For that, he had to prove that he was not automatically following American direction. And that in certain respects, American and French interests were not exactly parallel. At least as far as tactics were concerned.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=448.0,471.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nOn the other hand, in all big crises, he supported the United Sates more unquestioningly. On Berlin, on the Cuban Missile Crisis, when the summit at Paris collapsed. So, De Gaulle was a man of the west. De Gaulle was a strong anti-communist. On all essential points, he agreed with us on objective, and when he disagreed with us on tactics, he was not to put it mildly, overdrawn.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=471.0,503.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nIn fact, I would say he was more nearly right than wrong. So in the long run, he was healthy for France and healthy for us. And if we want to have a permanent Atlantic relationship, there must be in Europe a center of decision. And we, Americans, must not be so nervous because if our interests are parallel, intelligent Europeans will come to that conclusion.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=503.0,531.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd if they're not parallel, no amount of structure is going to avoid its split sooner or later.\n\u003e\u003e In other words, about all these divergences and controversies which mark the policy of US and France Your opinion is that the divergences who has not at all strategical that were purely tactical-\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=531.0,556.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e No, they concerned partly tactics and partly, a different notion of the-\n\u003e\u003e [CROSSTALK] Because you've been answering the needed.\n\u003e\u003e Yes.\n\u003e\u003e And what about the divergences-\n\u003e\u003e Yes, the divergences between Europe and the United States were partly tactical and partly, they are those from a different conception of the role of Europe.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=556.0,578.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAmericans in the 1950s had thought of the Atlantic partnership, as if it were administrative or constitution of problem. That is to say as if it were only necessary to create forms of cancer patient. And then one could assign to various units or nations, specific assignments base on the division of labor.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=578.0,602.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nBut that is not how history has operated, nations act not because of the division of labor but in pursuit of some objective. The goal having extricated his country from Algeria could not make it subservient to the United States without suffering a double defeat or at least a double sense of impotence.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=602.0,628.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd therefore, what De Gaulle wanted to bring about was a situation in which he could demonstrate that when France agreed with the United States. It was in pursued of its own independent perception. Now, on some issues such as integration of forces in the NATO alliance. He insisted on an independent command structure.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=628.0,657.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nI believe that was a primarily symbolic function. Because in fact, in declaration only means that in time of war, they are assigned to the common command, to the joint command. In times of peace, all forces in Europe are under national command. Nothing could keep France from doing that if there were a war, and it doesn't really have to be decided in the absence of a war.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=657.0,683.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSo this was one of those esoteric constitutional points that Americans get terribly excited about. But whose practical consequence was really quite minimum. And so, on those symbolic issues, De Gaulle was very strong and very insistent. But if I'm gonna ask one self, what was the significance? If one looks at what the European nations have done in the 20 years, or nearly 20 years, since de Gaulle disappeared from the scene.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=683.0,726.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nOne has to say that those nations that followed De Gaulle's prescriptions, having many ways been the best allies of the United States. I believe, for example, that the best foreign policy being conducted in Europe today is that of France. The one most compatible with, what I consider, well understood American purposes and what is more amazing has been pursued under both conservative and socialist presidents of France.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=726.0,757.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSo that De Gaulle has achieve a tradition that has now lasted after all 20 years and shows no sign of reckoning. So those disputes, I was supporting the De Gaulle version even in the 60s. But those Americans who then said it will wreck the alliance and will make impossible cooperation turned out to be wrong.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=757.0,787.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nThe other issue in which there was disagreement between the United States and De Gaulle was on the organization of Europe. He wanted unity based on the nation state, America wanted a federal structure. Theoretically, probably a federal structure is more efficient. Realistically, especially now that Europe includes Greece, Spain, Portugal.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=787.0,813.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nThe idea that the enlarged Europe, Britain now, that the enlarged Europe could be federal has been answered by history. And the De Gaulle prescription is what today, the overwhelming majority of Europeans would refer him, and in America, the issue has died completely.\n\u003e\u003e To come back to the divergencies and controversies between De Gaulle and the United States.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=813.0,845.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWell, I would first like to ask you the reasons. And then some people have said that in the end, finally, when De Gaulle was so valiantly against the US, of the policy of the US. We discover then later on, that it was in fact in that served finally, the address of the United States, maybe Vietnam or that.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=845.0,871.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWell then, in that case, what do you think were the first reason the divergence and then controversies, and was the position of the rule finally serving the interest of the Europe?\n\u003e\u003e The divergences between the United States and De Gaulle were in several levels. Some were philosophic. How should Europe be organized?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=871.0,899.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWell, for one thing, that's primarily a European problem. And whether De Gaulle was right or not right, it's not as important as whether the final organization of Europe emerge from Europe or from the United States. And therefore, the mere fact that there was a European perception of it, or conception of it, was terribly important.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=899.0,926.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSecond, had to do with the structure of the Atlantic alliance, that was another one of these theoretical points in which Americans, not having a long history of international affairs, have a theory. Which they would apply everywhere. And Europeans having lived on a continent together for 300 years, have a different experience.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=926.0,948.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAgain, history has taken care of that. The third had to do with the control of nuclear weapons. The Americans of that period, and maybe even of this period, would like all nuclear weapons of the alliance to be in one hand. I believe it is desirable on two grounds to have other sentence of nuclear decision.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=948.0,981.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nOne, if all nuclear decisions are made in America and all knowledge of nuclear weapons resides in America, Europeans will become totally irresponsible. And we will have the growth of the sentiment to its unilateral disarmament and pacifism. Secondly, as far as the Soviets are concerned, it is much better for them to fear that some European countries, or other sentence of decision, in an extremity will defend themselves even if America has.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=981.0,1016.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nThe force issues concern other areas of the world. Indochina, Middle East. There, it wasn't the question of Philosophy or of historic approach. There, it was a question of judgement. I had brief conversations with de Gaulle, and both the Middle East, and Indochina. On Indochina, it was my impression that he believed that the cause we were pursuing was bound to fail, and therefore, he wanted us to draw the consequences.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1016.0,1056.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nIf he had been convinced that it would succeed, he would have wished us well. And I did not think that he was working to defeat us. He was telling us as a friend that if it didn't work, we should cut our losses. In the Middle East, he had a position which in the event turned out to be fairly close to the position I had.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1056.0,1079.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nHe felt that the United States was the strongest nation in the Middle East, and have the strongest bargaining position. And that therefore, we need not fear a diplomatic encounter in the Middle East. I made a comment to him in which indicated that I was worried about the loss of American credibility in the Middle East.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1079.0,1110.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd he said, how very strange. I had oversaw that it was the Soviets who had a worry about the loss of credibility in the Middle East, it was quite right. And that was more or less the strategy we then pursued, not necessarily because President de Gaulle recommended it, but because it was the correct analysis.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1110.0,1129.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWe waited until the Arabs had understood that the Soviets could not help them diplomatically, and then we moved fairly decisively. So in those areas, I considered de Gaulle throw that of a concerned friend who might have a different views and expressed those views. But I did not think nor did President Nixon that President de Gaulle was working to defeat us or to hurt us.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1129.0,1162.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nHe was expressing his advice, sometimes painfully. But that was not a challenge like some of his European possession.\n\u003e\u003e Let's go even further, you said that was not against you but do you think that finally, it could have served, for example, let's take the example of Vietnam and the Paris Conference which was called in Paris, and maybe also a recognition of China.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1162.0,1193.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nDo you think in certain way-\n\u003e\u003e The mixed in administration which is the one I know best, we consider de Gaulle and de Gaulle's policy as pursued by President Pompidou very compatible with the United States. We are conducted our secret contacts with the Vietnamese in Paris using French facilities, briefing only the French President even much more than our own associates.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1193.0,1229.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nWe were never worried about any violation of our confidants, nor was it ever violated, nor was any irreciprocity have been demanded or suggested. As far as China was concerned, we certainly agreed with the basic analysis. And I repeat I think President de Gaulle was a great man, not because he was a selfish Frenchman, but because in pursuing his notion of French national interest, he was standing out of a principle as well in the United States interest, and then the interest of all freed people.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1229.0,1279.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e To generalize a little more, you said in your [INAUDIBLE] that in fact, the whole story was in a certain way, the story of how nations could cooperate, and could you tell us what you said?\n\u003e\u003e At the time of de Gaulle, I wrote a book called The Trap of Partnership in which I made the point that it was not sensible to talk about a conflict with de Gaulle as if this were a person of quarrel.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1279.0,1321.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nMy point was that it was a philosophical dispute about whether nations, how nations cooperate. Do nations cooperate because as if they were all working in the same factory on an assembly line and everyone is given a certain task? Or do nations cooperate because they think of themselves as expressions of a historical and cultural reality?\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1321.0,1348.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nIn the name of which, they then pursue parallel objectives. In my view, which is in agreement with de Gaulle's view, nations cooperate because they are convinced that in pursuit of their own interest, they serve the common interest. And their cooperation is all the more meaningful if they are perceived to have a choice, especially for democracies.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1348.0,1378.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nIf a democratic public knows that their leaders having the power and the right to do, otherwise, have selected a particular course that creates a certain presumption that it isn't expression of free will. If they, however, believe that this is exacted from them, imposed on them, then it becomes demoralizing.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1378.0,1407.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nIn the contemporary period, totally outside of Europe, we have this problem with relation to international debt. When these Latin American countries are forced by international organizations to carry out certain policies, it becomes a domestic issue. If the international organizations let them make their own decision, they sometimes go further than they would in response to foreign pressure on a different level that was the situation of Europe in the 1960s.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1407.0,1443.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd it is the essence of.\n\u003e\u003e All right, we just come back a little on where you were to see [INAUDIBLE] This was on the political and strategic level the situation in the 1960's. Americans or at least many leading Americans have the tendency to believe that whether a nation defends another results from a legal obligation.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1443.0,1491.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd they often talk as if the first thing that happens in case of aggression is that the President calls for his lawyer to see what that obligation is. They all would think, Europeans would think in general whether a nation comes to the assistance of another depends on whether it believes its vital security is threatened.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1491.0,1515.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nAnd you have a legal obligation as a reinforcement and as a warning to others, but not as your principal motive. So whether you are part of an organization or not, that will not determine the common defense. The goal was less interested in structure and he even thought that structure might create an illusion and an application of responsibility.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1515.0,1543.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nHe was more interested in a common concept and that, paradoxically, he believed would result best from it being perceived that other choices were possible.\n\u003e\u003e You talked just a few moments ago. You talked about President Nixon. Can you tell us a little, how President Nixon considered I suppose it was much in the same way you did but anyway.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1543.0,1574.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e Well, President Nixon's approach and mine were very similar to De Gaulle. Of course, De Gaulle had received President Nixon when Nixon was in the wilderness. And I was told by an associate of De Gaulle's, I forget whether it was or somebody else that, after that conversation when Nixon was considered generally out of the picture, De Gaulle said to him, mark my words, this man will be President of the United States.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1574.0,1608.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nSo Nixon had very high regard for De Gaulle and he was absolutely determined that the controversy with De Gaulle would end. And one of the first things we did upon assuming responsibility was to issue an order prohibiting this harassment of the French position that had resulted from the tensions in the previous administration.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1608.0,1634.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\nNixon met De Gaulle as President only twice on his visit to France and on De Gaulle's visit for Eisenhower's funeral. I was present on some of those discussions and they dealt with each other with enormous respect, and no doubt had De Gaulle stayed in office, there might have been occasional disagreement, but it would have led to a very fruitful collaboration.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1634.0,1661.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e When you said that\n\u003e\u003e Well Nixon had enormous admiration for De Gaulle, as I did before we started. So, it is really inconceivable to me that there would've been tension. And indeed, after De Gaulle's death, De Gaulle's resignation rather and Pompidou's accession to power, the main lines of the De Gaulle's foreign policy were carried out by Pompidou and until Pompidou became mortally ill, we had extraordinarily good relations with Pompidou.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1661.0,1715.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e Unless there is something else you wanted to say?\n\u003e\u003e No. No.\n\u003e\u003e I feel it too but.\n\u003e\u003e Yeah I didn't cover this alleged alleged dream of Monet and De Gaulle.\n\u003e\u003e No but it's typical I mean it is interesting to express the same thing but in different words no because it would have been.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1715.0,1742.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e I mean and also then, one would have to explain why Monet and De Gaulle,\n\u003e\u003e No, no, I told you the story, not to.\n\u003e\u003e No, no, no, no, that could too. He's absolutely right, I've said it in a toast that everybody.\n\u003e\u003e Yes, that structure, I could do it.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1742.0,1757.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7596/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\n\n\u003e\u003e I said, everybody praises Monet and everybody criticizes De Gualle and if the two were to meet they'd probably agree on the objective and only disagree on the method. Do you agree with it?\n\u003e\u003e I agree entirely.\n\u003e\u003e So sorry.\n\u003e\u003e [INAUDIBLE]\nI'm sure. Somebody, I don't remember [INAUDIBLE] Somebody told me.\n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1757.0,1794.3"}]},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ms_2004_s08_b0254_caption.vtt [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It would be best that you\nask me a question that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=0.85,5.925"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would answer in such a way that\nthe viewer can see it without.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=5.925,12.885"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e [FOREIGN]\n\u003e\u003e Dr. Henry Kissinger we would like first","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=18.295,22.597"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to have your opinion on\nthe man de Gaulle himself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=22.597,25.062"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"When you met him, his stature,\nhis personality, the way he behaves.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=25.062,30.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What do you think of him when he\nappears for you for the first time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=30.92,34.43"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Well I met de Gaulle only a few times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=34.43,37.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"On the occasion of\nPresident Nixon's visit to France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=37.71,42.62"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And on the occasion of\nPresident de Gaulle's visit for","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=42.62,45.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the funeral of President Eisenhower.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=45.83,48.146"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"When I met,\nthe striking thing about de Gaulle","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=51.327,55.044"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was the way he dominated\nany room in which he stood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=55.044,59.76"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There are only a few people in my\nexperience who have that quality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=59.76,65.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That when you saw de Gaulle,\neven when he didn't say anything,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=65.44,68.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he exuded a kind of charisma or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=70.06,73.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"strength that indicated that\nthis was the center of the room.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=73.84,79.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The first time I saw that was\nat a reception at the LSA in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=79.91,84.415"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"honor of President Nixon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=84.415,86.727"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I noticed it most strikingly on\nthe occasion of the funeral of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=86.727,90.604"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"President Eisenhower.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=90.604,92.207"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Where President de Gaulle arrived in\nthe uniform of a brigadier general.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=92.207,96.44"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At the reception in the White House and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=97.55,100.318"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"all our Liberal representatives,\nwho deployed generals and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=100.318,104.818"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"principle and de Gaulle as\na personality suddenly rushed for him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=104.818,109.681"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"As if he were the only person [INAUDIBLE],\nand","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=109.681,112.679"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there were 60 other heads of state there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=112.679,115.684"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Including [INAUDIBLE] and\nPrince Phillip and leading personalities.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=115.684,121.84"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I had the impression and I hoped that\nde Gaulle would not move to a window,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=121.84,127.544"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"because the whole room might tip over and\neverybody might fall out into the garden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=127.544,133.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So he had this authority\nin his personal relations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=133.89,140.628"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At least when I could observe him,\nhe was extraordinarily polite and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=140.628,147.595"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he achieved this commanding presence\nnot by a aggressive rhetoric.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=147.595,154.573"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"On the contrary,\nin the meetings that I attended with him,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=154.573,159.449"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he was extraordinarily polite.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=159.449,162.189"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Extremely well spoken.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=162.189,164.011"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Not give in to idle chatter and\nit was dangerous at least for","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=167.187,173.515"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"somebody in my position\nto say something banal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=173.515,178.826"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because he would not let\nthat go unchallenged,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=178.826,185.706"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but his challenge would be\non high intellectual level.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=185.706,193.792"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Lots of people have said\ntoo that he was Machiavellian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=193.792,196.776"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you think?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=196.776,199.268"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Well, the question might\nbe was he Machiavellian?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=199.268,204.01"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Any statesmen has to be\nMachiavellian to a certain degree.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=204.01,209.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because after all,\nit is the art of statesmanship to make","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=209.26,214.03"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"people carry out your wishes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=214.03,216.73"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Like persuading them by\nproviding incentives and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=216.73,222.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"penalties, it is the management of man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=222.59,226.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So on that level it was Machiavellian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=227.79,230.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"On the other hand, any leader who\nnavigates an extremely difficult course","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=230.06,235.639"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"such as de Gaulle's extrication\nof France from Algeria.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=236.81,240.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the equally difficult\nassignment of then giving France","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=242.27,245.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"a sense of confidence out\nof that seeming debacle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=246.55,250.9"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Such a man make requires\nextraordinary faith in something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=250.9,255.49"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because let you believe in something,\nyou do not have the emotional strength","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=256.52,261.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to do the manipulation needed\nto achieve the objective.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=261.99,265.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I think if one reads the last\nchapter of the de Gaulle's memoirs,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=267.31,272.77"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the ones that had been written\nbefore he returned to power.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=272.77,276.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Where he describes his\nversion of France and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=277.92,280.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what the countryside looks\nlike from his country house.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=280.19,285.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That is not the description of\na conventional Machiavellian.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=287.29,294.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But of course Machiavelli was\nnot as he's described either.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=295.08,298.65"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Machiavelli was a great\nbeliever in the unity of Italy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=298.65,302.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So in the broader sense of Machiavellian\nhe was, but not in the conventional sense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=302.18,309.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Another point is his behavior,\nthe way he managed with the American and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=310.56,317.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"lots of people said that\nhe was much too rigid.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=317.08,322.722"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Whereas the other French politicians\nsometimes were acting more","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=322.722,329.63"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"smoothly with more gentleness with\nthe USA, and maybe often more than the US.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=329.63,335.29"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What do you think of that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=335.29,337.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e There's no doubt that President\nde Gaulle treated the United States","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=337.74,342.12"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"more challengingly than any\nprevious French president.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=344.88,349.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Then the question is,\nwas this better for France, or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=351.1,354.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"worse for France, and was it better or\nworse for the alliance?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=354.61,358.745"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I believe, in the long run,\nit was better for France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=360.603,365.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it was better for the alliance\nthat de Gaulle acted as he did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=366.41,371.14"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In the 40s and 50s,\nwhen Europe was impotent and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=372.41,377.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"totally dependent on American help.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=377.34,380.48"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e It was natural for European leaders,\nincluding French 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unquestioningly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=472.69,478.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"On Berlin, on the Cuban Missile Crisis,\nwhen the summit at Paris collapsed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=478.18,483.08"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, De Gaulle was a man of the 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avoid","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=531.08,535.98"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"its split sooner or later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=535.98,539.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e In other words,\nabout all these divergences 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at","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=547.802,552.816"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"all strategical that were purely tactical-\n\u003e\u003e No, they concerned partly tactics and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=552.816,559.302"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"partly, a different notion of the-\n\u003e\u003e [CROSSTALK] Because you've been","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=559.302,563.508"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"answering the needed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=563.508,564.878"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=564.878,566.679"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e And what about the divergences-\n\u003e\u003e Yes, the divergences between Europe and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=566.679,570.749"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the United States were partly tactical 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it","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=614.68,620.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"subservient to the United States\nwithout suffering a double defeat or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=620.53,625.74"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"at least a double sense of impotence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=625.74,628.215"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And therefore, what De Gaulle wanted\nto bring about was a situation in","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=628.215,634.119"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"which he could demonstrate that when\nFrance agreed with the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=634.119,640.538"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It was in pursued of its\nown independent perception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=640.538,644.891"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, on some issues such as integration\nof forces in the NATO alliance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=644.891,652.721"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He insisted on an independent\ncommand structure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=652.721,657.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I believe that was a primarily\nsymbolic function.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=657.86,660.51"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because in fact, in declaration\nonly means that in time of war,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=660.51,666.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"they are assigned to the common command,\nto the joint command.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=666.86,669.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In times of peace, all forces in\nEurope are under national command.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=669.69,673.5"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Nothing could keep France from\ndoing that if there were a war, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=674.78,679.8"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it doesn't really have to be\ndecided in the absence of a war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=679.8,683.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So this was one of those\nesoteric constitutional","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=683.35,686.87"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"points that Americans get\nterribly excited about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=686.87,689.54"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But whose practical consequence\nwas really quite minimum.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=690.61,694.59"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so, on those symbolic issues,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=697.05,701.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle was very strong and\nvery insistent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=701.96,708.354"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But if I'm gonna ask one self,\nwhat was the significance?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=708.354,715.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If one looks at what the European\nnations have done in the 20 years,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=715.78,721.61"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"or nearly 20 years, since de\nGaulle disappeared from the scene.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=721.61,724.36"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One has to say that those nations that\nfollowed De Gaulle's prescriptions,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=726.2,731.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"having many ways been the best\nallies of the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=731.05,734.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I believe, for example, that the best\nforeign policy being conducted","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=736.03,740.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in Europe today is that of France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=740.41,743.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The one most compatible with,\nwhat I consider,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=744.4,748.34"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"well understood American purposes and\nwhat is more amazing","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=748.34,752.94"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"has been pursued under both conservative\nand socialist presidents of France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=752.94,757.736"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So that De Gaulle has achieve\na tradition that has now","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=757.736,762.88"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"lasted after all 20 years and\nshows no sign of reckoning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=762.88,768.19"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So those disputes, I was supporting\nthe De Gaulle version even in the 60s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=769.63,777.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But those Americans who then said\nit will wreck the alliance and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=777.93,781.55"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"will make impossible cooperation\nturned out to be wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=781.55,785.71"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The other issue in which there was\ndisagreement between the United States and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=787.37,792.351"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle was on\nthe organization of Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=792.351,795.268"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He wanted unity based on the nation state,\nAmerica wanted a federal structure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=795.268,800.856"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Theoretically, probably a federal\nstructure is more efficient.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=803.573,807.086"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Realistically, especially now that\nEurope includes Greece, Spain, Portugal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=807.086,811.695"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The idea that the enlarged Europe,\nBritain now,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=813.635,817.635"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that the enlarged Europe could be\nfederal has been answered by history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=817.635,823.361"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the De Gaulle\nprescription is what today,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=823.361,827.953"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the overwhelming majority of\nEuropeans would refer him,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=827.953,833.725"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and in America,\nthe issue has died completely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=833.725,838.572"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e To come back to the divergencies and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=838.572,841.187"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"controversies between De Gaulle and\nthe United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=841.187,845.378"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, I would first like\nto ask you the reasons.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=845.378,847.38"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then some people have\nsaid that in the end,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=847.38,852.156"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"finally, when De Gaulle was so","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=852.156,855.341"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"valiantly against the US,\nof the policy of the US.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=855.341,860.627"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We discover then later on, that it\nwas in fact in that served finally,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=860.627,866.325"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the address of the United States,\nmaybe Vietnam or that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=866.325,871.073"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well then, in that case,\nwhat do you think were the first","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=871.073,875.715"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"reason the divergence and\nthen controversies, and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=875.715,879.971"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was the position of the rule finally\nserving the interest of the Europe?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=879.971,885.884"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e The divergences between\nthe United States and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=885.884,890.776"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle were in several levels.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=890.776,894.93"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Some were philosophic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=894.93,895.86"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"How should Europe be organized?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=897.1,898.22"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well, for one thing,\nthat's primarily a European problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=899.7,902.686"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And whether De Gaulle was right or not\nright, it's not as important as whether","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=902.686,909.68"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the final organization of Europe emerge\nfrom Europe or from the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=910.76,915.379"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And therefore, the mere fact that there\nwas a European perception of it, 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us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1157.884,1162.201"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He was expressing his advice,\nsometimes painfully.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1162.201,1168.112"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But that was not a challenge like\nsome of his European 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and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1198.643,1203.67"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"de Gaulle's policy as\npursued by President Pompidou","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1203.67,1208.7"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"very compatible with the United 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facilities,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1217.71,1222.489"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"briefing only the French President even\nmuch more than our own associates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1223.67,1228.83"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We were never worried about any violation\nof our confidants, nor was it 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concerned,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1241.38,1245.057"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we certainly agreed with\nthe basic analysis.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1245.057,1250.58"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I repeat I think President\nde Gaulle was a great 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interest,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1261.07,1266.644"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he was standing out of a principle as\nwell in the United States interest,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1266.644,1273.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and then the interest of all freed people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1273.18,1277.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e To generalize a little more,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1279.88,1283.267"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"you said in your [INAUDIBLE] that in fact,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1283.267,1287.874"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the whole story was in a certain way,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1287.874,1292.072"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the story of how nations could cooperate,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1292.072,1296.949"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and could you tell us what you said?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1296.949,1301.031"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e At the time of de Gaulle,\nI wrote a book called The Trap of","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1301.031,1306.421"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Partnership in which I made\nthe point that it was not sensible","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1306.421,1312.274"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"to talk about a conflict with de Gaulle\nas if this were a person of 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reality?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1344.877,1347.21"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In the name of which,\nthey then pursue parallel objectives.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1348.27,1352.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In my view, which is in\nagreement with de Gaulle's 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Europe,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1407.69,1410.66"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we have this problem with\nrelation to international debt.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1410.66,1416.28"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"When these Latin American countries\nare forced by international 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1960s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1437.51,1441.95"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it is the essence of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1443.33,1449.336"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e All right, we just come back a little\non where you were to see [INAUDIBLE]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1457.695,1462.959"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"This was on the political and strategic\nlevel the situation in the 1960's.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1466.586,1473.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Americans or at least many leading\nAmericans have the tendency to 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think,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1500.436,1504.99"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Europeans would think in general whether a\nnation comes to the assistance of another","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1504.99,1509.565"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"depends on whether it believes\nits vital security is threatened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1509.565,1513.47"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you have a legal obligation\nas a reinforcement and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1515.47,1519.78"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as a warning to others, but\nnot as your principal motive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1519.78,1522.96"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So whether you are part\nof an organization or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1524.26,1526.69"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"not, that will not determine\nthe common defense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1526.69,1530.26"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The goal was less interested in structure\nand he even thought that structure","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1531.97,1538.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"might create an illusion and\nan application of responsibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1538.07,1543.81"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He was more interested in a common concept\nand that, paradoxically, he believed","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1543.81,1551.04"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"would result best from it being perceived\nthat other choices were possible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1551.04,1556.35"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e You talked just a few moments ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1558.77,1561.05"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You talked about President Nixon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1561.05,1563.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Can you tell us a little,\nhow President Nixon considered I","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1565.64,1570.023"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"suppose it was much in the same\nway you did but anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1570.023,1574.06"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Well, President Nixon's approach and\nmine were very similar to De Gaulle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1574.06,1579.007"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Of course,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1579.007,1579.874"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle had received President Nixon\nwhen Nixon was in the wilderness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1579.874,1585.259"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I was told by an associate of\nDe Gaulle's, I forget whether it was or","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1586.33,1591.92"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"somebody else that,\nafter that conversation when","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1591.92,1597.24"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Nixon was considered generally out of\nthe picture, De Gaulle said to him,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1597.24,1602.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"mark my words, this man will be\nPresident of the United States.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1602.41,1606.289"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So Nixon had very high regard for\nDe Gaulle and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1608.41,1611.37"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"he was absolutely determined that\nthe controversy with De Gaulle would end.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1611.37,1616.52"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And one of the first things we did\nupon assuming responsibility was to","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1616.52,1623.79"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"issue an order prohibiting this\nharassment of the French position","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1623.79,1629.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that had resulted from the tensions\nin the previous administration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1630.4,1634.698"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Nixon met De Gaulle as President only\ntwice on his visit to France and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1634.698,1639.358"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"on De Gaulle's visit for\nEisenhower's funeral.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1639.358,1642.89"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was present on some of those\ndiscussions and they dealt with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1644.34,1649.18"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"each other with enormous respect, and\nno doubt had De Gaulle stayed in office,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1649.18,1654.07"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"there might have been\noccasional disagreement, but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1654.07,1658.53"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"it would have led to a very\nfruitful collaboration.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1658.53,1661.674"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e When you said that","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1661.674,1669.129"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Well Nixon had enormous admiration for","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1672.63,1676.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle, as I did before we started.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1676.33,1679.526"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, it is really inconceivable to me\nthat there would've been tension.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1679.526,1687.56"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And indeed, after De Gaulle's death,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1687.56,1690.772"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"De Gaulle's resignation rather and\nPompidou's accession to power,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1690.772,1696.443"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"the main lines of the De Gaulle's\nforeign policy were carried","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1696.443,1701.355"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"out by Pompidou and\nuntil Pompidou became mortally ill,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1701.355,1705.889"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"we had extraordinarily good\nrelations with Pompidou.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1705.889,1710.349"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Unless there is something\nelse you wanted to say?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1715.391,1720.546"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1720.546,1721.438"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1721.438,1722.451"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e I feel it too but.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1728.17,1729.41"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Yeah I didn't cover this alleged\nalleged dream of Monet and De Gaulle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1729.41,1733.91"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/411","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e No but it's typical I mean it is\ninteresting to express the same thing but","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1733.91,1739.33"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/412","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"in different words no\nbecause it would have been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1739.33,1742.055"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e I mean and also then, one would have\nto explain why Monet and De Gaulle,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1742.055,1745.995"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e No, no, I told you the story, not to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1745.995,1747.541"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/415","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e No, no, no, no, that could too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1747.541,1749.845"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/416","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He's absolutely right,\nI've said it in a toast that everybody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1749.845,1754.795"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e Yes, that structure, I could do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1754.795,1757.855"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e I said, everybody praises Monet and\neverybody criticizes De Gualle and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1757.855,1762.135"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"if the two were to meet they'd\nprobably agree on the objective and","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1762.135,1766.31"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"only disagree on the method.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1766.31,1768.2"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/421","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you agree with it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1768.2,1770.11"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/422","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e I agree entirely.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1770.11,1770.685"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/423","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e So sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1770.685,1772.096"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/424","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003e\u003e [INAUDIBLE]\nI'm sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1772.096,1776.32"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/425","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Somebody, I don't remember\n[INAUDIBLE] Somebody told me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657#t=1776.32,1780.41"}]},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/77/collection_resources/17395/file/72657/transcript/7597/annotation/426","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/007/597/original/transcript_index_158232330620200221-1535-1dt14tg?1582305307","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/007/597/original/transcript_index_158232330620200221-1535-1dt14tg?1582305307"}]}]}]}