{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/b27pn8xz9x/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Mintz, Jacqueline Wei, 2008 December 9"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Mintz, Jacqueline Wei, 2008 December 9. Oral Histories Documenting Yale University Women (RU 1051). Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library.\n\n https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/resources/2559."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/801904"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["mssa.ru.1051 (EAD ID)","RU 1051 (Call Number)","ru_1051_2012-a-047_mintz_jacqueline_wei_audiorecording.mp3 (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2008 December 9 (Creation)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["The materials are open for research. (Userestrict)","Jacqueline Wei Mintz was born in 1935, in Shanghai, China.  Her father was in international banking and decided to move the family to the United States in 1941, shortly before the U.S. entered World War II.   The family moved around the New York area for a time before settling in Bronxville.  Mintz attended the local public school before entering Abbot Academy (now Phillips Academy).  From there she went to Radcliffe College where she majored in linguistics, with minors in Persian and Arabic.  \n\nIn 1958, she began a Ph.D. in linguistics at Yale.  Whilst still a graduate student she met Sidney Mintz, an anthropologist on the Yale faculty.  They married in 1964.  Mintz did not complete her doctorate but in the ensuing years, between extensive study and research periods at M.I.T., then in Iran and Paris, she held a variety of positions in the Yale administration.  First, she worked for the recently-established Carnegie funded 5-year B.A. program.   She was Dean of Saybrook College in the academic year 1971-1972, during which time she also served on Yale’s Undergraduate Admissions Committee.  In 1972, she was appointed Associate Provost with responsibility for developing Yale’s affirmative action program and for preparing Yale’s first Affirmative Action Plan which was submitted to U.S. Department of Heath, Education and Welfare in April 1973.  She held this position until she resigned in 1976.\n\nAfter she left Yale, Mintz moved to Baltimore where her husband was now teaching, and took a law degree at the University of Pennsylvania.  Then she worked in Washington, D.C., first for the National Labor Relations Board, and then the American Association of University Professors.  She then specialized in consumer protection law in Baltimore, before moving to the Maryland Attorney General’s Office where she worked in educational affairs until her retirement. (Bioghist)","Jacqueline Mintz begins the interview by briefly outlining her family and educational background and touching on her ethnic identity.  A lengthy account is then given of her first impressions of Yale and the city of New Haven, and the experience of living in Helen Hadley Hall, the women graduate residence which opened its doors the year she arrived at Yale.  She describes what she perceived as the prevalent attitudes towards women at Yale, within the faculty and amongst her graduate peers and the undergraduates.  She recalls being at Yale in the sixties as a young faculty wife, and her and her husband’s relations with young faculty and students, particularly their involvement with, and commitment to, the new generation of undergraduates who were  admitted to Yale as a result of the changes in admissions policy instituted under Inslee “Inky” Clark, Dean of Undergraduate Admissions, 1965-1970.  Encounters with minority student leaders like Armstead Robinson and Glenn de Chabert are detailed at length, and how the Sixties counter culture and political issues, such as civil rights and the anti-Vietnam war protests, began to change the Yale campus and relations within it.  In this context she assesses her early attitudes to feminism, the advantages and disadvantages of being a faculty wife, and how the so-called nepotism rules impinged on her life.\n\nMintz briefly describes her involvement with the innovative 5-year B.A. program, the reasons why her husband declined an offer – a joint decision by the couple - to become the Master of Pierson College.  The circumstances in which she was offered the deanship of Saybrook College are discussed, along with the many challenges the job, especially those relating to gender and race.  She assesses to what extent her gender was an issue for the undergraduates and the college fellows.  \n\nMost of the rest of her interview is taken up with her years as Associate Provost.  As Yale’s first affirmative action officer she had responsibility for the development and implementation of Yale’s affirmative action program.  She discusses attitudes and perceptions regarding affirmative action which then prevailed in the Yale administration and faculty, especially the intense debate surrounding the role of goals, quotas and timetables in implementing government policy, which took place against a background of stringent budgetary restraints.   A description is provided of how she approached the challenges of gathering data for, and then drafting, Yale’s first Affirmative Action Plan.  She discusses relations with the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare at both an institutional and personal level, singling out many specific issues, including:  the removal of the anti-nepotism rule from the Faculty Handbook, the ‘pipeline’ issue in respect of women and minority hiring on faculty, and the first attempts to secure regular ladder appointments for longstanding female adjunct faculty.  Mintz stresses the fact that her job entailed the development of an affirmative action program for all university employees, not just faculty, and how this responsibility brought her into contact with clerical, managerial and professional staff, and with bargaining units across the entire university.  During her tenure, she set up the first faculty search and recruitment procedures for each department and school at Yale, and completed an M \u0026amp; P Salary and Job Classification Study (which affected over 1500 employees, many of them women).  This revealed significant wage discrepancies and other forms of discrimination.  In conclusion she discusses the reasons why she resigned in 1976, and briefly describes her professional life after she left Yale.  \n\nIn the course of the interview, Mintz recalls personal encounters with, and impressions of, many senior Yale figures of the period, including President Kingman Brewster, Provosts Hannah Holborn Gray and Richard Cooper, and Dean Howard Taft.  She talks about her friendship with Marnesba “Bobbi” Hill, the first African-American women to serve in the senior Yale administration (Assistant Dean of Yale College, 1973-1974 and Associate Dean, 1974-1980).  She also recalls networks of women she found useful outside Yale, and her role as a founding member, along with Bobbi Hill, of a group called New England Minority Women Administrators. (Scope and Content Note)","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;99acbc19-f2b7-4101-822c-9eca65ebb0b5 (Other Finding Aid Note)","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software. (Processinfo)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["The materials are open for research.","Jacqueline Wei Mintz was born in 1935, in Shanghai, China.  Her father was in international banking and decided to move the family to the United States in 1941, shortly before the U.S. entered World War II.   The family moved around the New York area for a time before settling in Bronxville.  Mintz attended the local public school before entering Abbot Academy (now Phillips Academy).  From there she went to Radcliffe College where she majored in linguistics, with minors in Persian and Arabic.  \n\nIn 1958, she began a Ph.D. in linguistics at Yale.  Whilst still a graduate student she met Sidney Mintz, an anthropologist on the Yale faculty.  They married in 1964.  Mintz did not complete her doctorate but in the ensuing years, between extensive study and research periods at M.I.T., then in Iran and Paris, she held a variety of positions in the Yale administration.  First, she worked for the recently-established Carnegie funded 5-year B.A. program.   She was Dean of Saybrook College in the academic year 1971-1972, during which time she also served on Yale’s Undergraduate Admissions Committee.  In 1972, she was appointed Associate Provost with responsibility for developing Yale’s affirmative action program and for preparing Yale’s first Affirmative Action Plan which was submitted to U.S. Department of Heath, Education and Welfare in April 1973.  She held this position until she resigned in 1976.\n\nAfter she left Yale, Mintz moved to Baltimore where her husband was now teaching, and took a law degree at the University of Pennsylvania.  Then she worked in Washington, D.C., first for the National Labor Relations Board, and then the American Association of University Professors.  She then specialized in consumer protection law in Baltimore, before moving to the Maryland Attorney General’s Office where she worked in educational affairs until her retirement.","Jacqueline Mintz begins the interview by briefly outlining her family and educational background and touching on her ethnic identity.  A lengthy account is then given of her first impressions of Yale and the city of New Haven, and the experience of living in Helen Hadley Hall, the women graduate residence which opened its doors the year she arrived at Yale.  She describes what she perceived as the prevalent attitudes towards women at Yale, within the faculty and amongst her graduate peers and the undergraduates.  She recalls being at Yale in the sixties as a young faculty wife, and her and her husband’s relations with young faculty and students, particularly their involvement with, and commitment to, the new generation of undergraduates who were  admitted to Yale as a result of the changes in admissions policy instituted under Inslee “Inky” Clark, Dean of Undergraduate Admissions, 1965-1970.  Encounters with minority student leaders like Armstead Robinson and Glenn de Chabert are detailed at length, and how the Sixties counter culture and political issues, such as civil rights and the anti-Vietnam war protests, began to change the Yale campus and relations within it.  In this context she assesses her early attitudes to feminism, the advantages and disadvantages of being a faculty wife, and how the so-called nepotism rules impinged on her life.\n\nMintz briefly describes her involvement with the innovative 5-year B.A. program, the reasons why her husband declined an offer – a joint decision by the couple - to become the Master of Pierson College.  The circumstances in which she was offered the deanship of Saybrook College are discussed, along with the many challenges the job, especially those relating to gender and race.  She assesses to what extent her gender was an issue for the undergraduates and the college fellows.  \n\nMost of the rest of her interview is taken up with her years as Associate Provost.  As Yale’s first affirmative action officer she had responsibility for the development and implementation of Yale’s affirmative action program.  She discusses attitudes and perceptions regarding affirmative action which then prevailed in the Yale administration and faculty, especially the intense debate surrounding the role of goals, quotas and timetables in implementing government policy, which took place against a background of stringent budgetary restraints.   A description is provided of how she approached the challenges of gathering data for, and then drafting, Yale’s first Affirmative Action Plan.  She discusses relations with the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare at both an institutional and personal level, singling out many specific issues, including:  the removal of the anti-nepotism rule from the Faculty Handbook, the ‘pipeline’ issue in respect of women and minority hiring on faculty, and the first attempts to secure regular ladder appointments for longstanding female adjunct faculty.  Mintz stresses the fact that her job entailed the development of an affirmative action program for all university employees, not just faculty, and how this responsibility brought her into contact with clerical, managerial and professional staff, and with bargaining units across the entire university.  During her tenure, she set up the first faculty search and recruitment procedures for each department and school at Yale, and completed an M \u0026 P Salary and Job Classification Study (which affected over 1500 employees, many of them women).  This revealed significant wage discrepancies and other forms of discrimination.  In conclusion she discusses the reasons why she resigned in 1976, and briefly describes her professional life after she left Yale.  \n\nIn the course of the interview, Mintz recalls personal encounters with, and impressions of, many senior Yale figures of the period, including President Kingman Brewster, Provosts Hannah Holborn Gray and Richard Cooper, and Dean Howard Taft.  She talks about her friendship with Marnesba “Bobbi” Hill, the first African-American women to serve in the senior Yale administration (Assistant Dean of Yale College, 1973-1974 and Associate Dean, 1974-1980).  She also recalls networks of women she found useful outside Yale, and her role as a founding member, along with Bobbi Hill, of a group called New England Minority Women Administrators.","https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u002699acbc19-f2b7-4101-822c-9eca65ebb0b5","This material was originally acquired in 2009 as a direct network transfer from Yale shared network attached storage and artificial logical AD1 forensic images were created. AD1 images were extracted in May 2020 and resulting files processed. Audio files which had been originally recorded in short sequential tracks, were merged together into a single processed master wav file with fre:ac software."]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["Access to the materials is partially restricted. See Collection Contents for details.\n\nOriginal computer files may not be accessed due to their fragility. Researchers must consult access copies."]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives Yale University Library"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - open-uri20210827-32762-qpht0v.mpga"]},"duration":12581.32898,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/public/images/audio-default.png","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-yalemssa.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/122/270/original/open-uri20210827-32762-qpht0v.mpga?1630069723","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":12581.32898,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["ru_1051_2012-a-047_mintz_jacqueline_wei_edited_transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Mintz 120908\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight, I think we’re recording.  I’m going to mark this first, Jackie.  Just to see where we are and who we are.  It’s December the 9th, 2008 and I’m -– this is Florence Minnus (sp?); I’m here with Jackie Wae (sp?) Mintz in her home in Baltimore at One 1100 Hill Road.  Maryland.  Well thank you, Jackie, for doing this; this is great um and um I find it very helpful uh to start the interviews with um with ah –- to get a sense of the -- of a person’s background –-\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd of course I’m particularly interested in your background because of course you’re Asian-American and um so far um I think you’re the first minority woman at Yale that I’ve spoken to –-\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh-huh\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAt any length; so it would be really helpful to me um to have a -– to hear a little bit about your uh your early background and and your influences growing up.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Um, I’m happy to talk about my background.  I should um kind of make a disclaimer; I am minority because I am Asian-American; I don’t think my particular um background really qualifies me -– I’m not particularly representative of many other minorities because um well, as you will see from the [tally] -– I didn’t grow up in a minority-type situation.  Um, um, anyway starting from the beginning.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm, I was born in Shanghai in 1937 and um we’d left Shanghai in 1941, about the middle of the year, um because my father who was in international finance um and kept abreast of developments in in the foreign affairs field, um apparently thought that um there would be an attack on the U.S. and that there would be an alliance between the Japan -– Japanese and the Germans and... well, let me step back a bit, sorry.  We lived in the French Quarter of Shanghai which um was not occupied by the Japanese because it was international um and Japan had been in in the war against China for um several years already and but we did not have to live in in occupied China but because my father thought that um Japan and Germany would, you know, join in an alliance, then the Japanese would be free to enter the international settlements and occupy them.  So, he thought it would better for his children, I mean that’s the way it was always described to me, um not to have to undergo the experience of the what and so we came to the U.S. um originally um with the intention of returning in two or three years.  When the -– when the war was over, as he explained it.  Um and we -- we want to Hawaii first; um my father had left before us um and I can explain that too but um so we met him in Hawaii; he was waiting for us there um and we stayed there for a couple of months and in um -- we left sometime -- end of October, beginning of November because he thought that there was a good chance that the Japanese would attack um and a logical place for them to attack would be Hawaii.  So we went to um -- we came to the um mainland and came to the East Coast because my mother and and -- we came to the East Coast rather than the West Coast because my mother had spent a couple of months on the West Coast earlier and she found a lot of discrimination against Asians and she didn’t think that would be a good place for her children (laughter) to grow up.  I mean we were very fortunate, we children, in that sense.  So we grew up -- we ended up um –- we lived for a little while in Manhattan and then we moved to Westchester County um and lived in Scarsdale for a year and then moved to Bronxville which was a small kind of racially exclusive um uh suburb uh suburban town, you know –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOf New York.  And the reason we were there -- people would ask us, you know, how come you’re there because it was such a discriminatory place \n\r\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=0.0,300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":".  It was called by real estate brokers, “the holy square mile,” because it -- they kept everybody out.  But when we came in 1941 um [coughs], my father was in kind of international banking and he had all these banking friends and acquaintances in New York and they said well we should move there and um because China was an ally and there were no Chinese in the area, um I think my parents were treated very well; you know, everybody kind of welcomed us and so forth and –- so that’s where I spent the first -– let’s see I was four and when I was 13 um -– anyway so I grew up in the local public school um and then went to um boarding school in Massachusetts.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhich school did you go to?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI went to a school called Abbott Academy which is now merged with Philips; it was right down the street um and I enjoyed myself there.  Um people liked to complain -– all the girls liked to complain all the time about all the social life they were leaving behind but I, I thought it was great; I didn’t have my parents bothering me about various things.  And –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas it -– was it a place um that -– was it regarded as a finishing school or was it actually regarded as a place where women could -– or young women could excel academically and go on to bigger things?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know I think it is probably some sort of combination of the two.  Um, I don’t think -– I mean, I think the teachers were pretty good and if one wanted to study, one certainly could.  Um (pause) I don’t really -– I mean of the various private schools for girls it was one of the better ones or the best, I guess.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat do you think your uh your parents had in mind when they sent you to the school?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThey didn’t like the public schools anymore.  Um, they thought –- Bronxville Public School has a reputation or had a reputation for being one of the [kind of] most modern progressive schools; had a great reputation but they didn’t like it -- ultimately, they said it was -- that, that, you know, there was no homework; there was no grades, that kind of thing and they thought that was not a good way to um have your children learn.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo they wanted you to to to succeed academically?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh absolutely.  Yeah.  I mean for a typical Chinese family, you know (laughter) -- um sure, it was -- it went without saying that we should do well in school.  Um and just to step back a bit, my father used to always say um that, you know, this was America and I could do anything I wanted and that girls could do things that at the same way that boys could.  Well, you know, I -- being young I believed him .  (laughter)  Anyway so I went to that boarding school for four years and then I um went to Radcliffe for college and that was terrific; I, you know it was -- there were no restrictions –- Abbott was very strict.  Um it was -– you know and you just didn’t see boys even though Andover was a block and a half away and you could only go downtown um in the afternoon for a short while and if you went into Boston, you were chaperoned -– I mean it was –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo you felt you had been released?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm absolutely, you didn’t have to go to bed at a certain hour; there were lights out so I stayed up all hours.  Um you could eat when you wanted um -- the first year I lived in one of the regular dorms and... let’s see I think boys still weren’t allowed upstairs so you’d have these, you know, mixtures and stuff like that downstairs on Friday nights or Saturday nights.  Um I mean there were still (inaudible) rules and I think they were probably (inaudible) rules throughout the time I was in college.  But then I moved into a off-campus house my sophomore year and um I spent a lot of my time up in the square with friends and so forth so it kind of didn’t matter.  Um anyway I, I found college, you know, very exciting, very exhilarating.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas that academically as well as socially?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I think at the beginning, I mean, I don’t think I found classes... it wasn’t that I didn’t like them; they weren’t probably as important to me \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=300.0,600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"as some other things.  Eventually I kind of settled down and um I originally intended to major in Russian history because Russian history was really -– and um I took a couple of great courses [coughs]; um I think even my freshman year I took some classes that were, you know, upper-level graduate classes.  They were really good.  But I realized that if you wanted to study the history of an area, you needed to know the language.  Um so I was going to take Russian but in the meantime I’d also gotten interested in Ottoman history because of it’s impact on Russia [in the] -– so I took a course on Ottoman history and decided that’s the area I wanted to specialize in and so I ended up taking Arabic and Persian.  Um and instead of majoring in history because I needed to take so much Arabic and Persian, I majored in linguistics because you could count, count language as is part of the fulfillments of your, you know, main -– the requirements for the major.  Um and um but I also, you know, did linguistics and found that really very interesting um and I was at the end of my senior year; I was trying to decide whether to do Middle East studies or linguistics and the people in the Middle East Center, which was fairly new at the time because Americans were just beginning to discover how important oil was, um and they’d set up this money and they lured these British scholars, you know, from -- they knew me and I was, you know, one of the undergraduates who had taken as much Arabic and Persian so they, they really wanted me to go on to -- but I wanted to do a combined linguistics-Middle East studies and you could do history and Middle East studies and sociology and art history but you couldn’t do linguistics because um Gibb -– Sir. Hamilton A. R. Gibb who was the kind of the, the most important um specialist there -- he didn’t like linguistics.  He really -- he thought that was a terrible way to go about learning about language.  And um he wouldn’t allow that particular combination so I said, well, you know, in that case I didn’t want to, you know, go on in that program.  So I ended up going to Yale in linguistics.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.  Did -– when uh thinking about your experience at Wellesley did you -– were you taught by men mostly?  Or –-\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAt, at Radcliffe.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSorry, I, I meant to say Radcliffe.  I’m sorry.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah, well it was the Harvard faculty. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI mean all our classes –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWere (inaudible) together.  So yeah, I don’t think I -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you have any women teachers at all?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI had one –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tParticularly since women are often instructors in language.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, but not in Arabic, unfortunately.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo. (laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo.  I took, I took Spanish one year or semester and the instructor was uh –- I’m trying to think it -– the only female instructor I remember having...was um...I think I must have been a history major or something like that for a year and you had to do these seminars where you would read, you know, Tacitus (sp?) or whatever.  Um and there would be small groups of six to, to eight people -- students and there was a women instructor; she was a graduate student in history, somewhat older, that I thought she was very good but I think that’s the only one I had.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo you didn’t really have a female model um of an academic?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo.  But --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut when I went to Yale of course there were (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, did you -– but from what you were saying it seemed to me that uh you were getting a lot of encouragement to go onto graduate work.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Um, I don’t know when I decided that that would be what I wanted to do.  But I think once I got into [Nureast] studies and linguistics, that seemed like the obvious thing to do and I didn’t want to get -– a, a lot of people came to the [Nureast] Center to do a Masters –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut they would be people who would go and do the Foreign Service or do um go back to the oil companies or whatever (laughter) and that wasn’t what I was interested in.  Um, I don’t know why I wasn’t interested in foreign service which just wasn’t um -– so if I wanted to continue it made sense to \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=600.0,900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":", you know, you had to get a PhD.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo why did you choose Yale?  I can see why you rejected Harvard but why did you choose Yale?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt had a very good linguistics program.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid they -–\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  It was kind of the premier linguistics program for years; I think by the time I went there um -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat was it, ’60?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh ’58.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tFifty-eight.  Right.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Um, it was the place in linguistics from, I would say, through the forties and fifties and it produced a lot of the important linguistic -– the other places, you know, like Berkeley and Cornell and Penn so -– Harvard’s linguistics program was not good.  Um and I would not have, you know -– nobody would continue with linguistics at Harvard at that time.  Um but what was happening in linguistics at the time was the Chomsky revolution was just starting.  Um in fact I had read his syntactic structures when I was a senior and I thought that was really pretty neat stuff and I asked my uh, you know, thesis adviser at, at, at Harvard and he wasn’t to enthusiastic about it but in any case he said they don’t have a program yet. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm that was at MIT, right.  So I went to Yale um and it was a very -– it was an interesting mix of kind of linguistics and traditional Indo-European comparative grammars so I studied Sanskrit; you had to have Greek and Latin and French and you had to pass German.  So I took some Greek as well um and but the Sanskrit -– and then I also took [Avestan]; it all fit in with the Iranian side of me.  I decided to go into Iranian linguistics.  Um but they didn’t have anything kind of on the Middle East; they had somebody who in the [Nureast] department -– they had people who studied Assyrian and Babylonian, you know, kind of very old classical Arabic and I didn’t want to do that.  Um so I didn’t do that at Yale, particularly.  I did go down to Princeton, at one point, once a week for a semester or year to do kind of Persian literature because they had a very good program.  But that was a long drive.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tRound trip.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo what was Yale like when you came here in ’58?  What were your first impressions of the place?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell I found New Haven dinky.  I mean it wasn’t, compared to Cambridge, it was -– there was nothing to do, really.  Um and the graduate students were um kind of a, a poor relative of the college; you know, it was important but you always felt that...you weren’t as important as some other part of the university.  Um and we didn’t have much to do with the undergraduates but I did remember -– I don’t remember if I told you this earlier but walking down the street, I lived in the women’s dorm the first year -– is no longer the women’s dorm but it had just been built on Temple Street –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThe Helen, Helen Hadley Hall?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  I don’t think it was called the Helen Hadley Hall that first year; I think they gave it -– that’s why I think of it as the women’s dorm.  Um, anyway I was walking down Temple Street um towards downtown, towards Chapel Street, and we passed between Timothy Dwight and I can’t remember the name of the college it was (inaudible), and um there were some undergraduates leaning out the window and they were obviously, probably um slightly drunk and so forth and they said we –- I was walking with a couple of other graduate students, female graduate students -– and they were saying that we should go home because they didn’t want women on campus.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  I mean, you know, it’s kind of a caricature of uh Yale undergraduates but it was –- it happened .  (laughter)  It happened that way.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I thought how ridiculous is this; it seemed like it was in a different century.  Uh Yale was very, very different from Harvard; I mean there were lots of things, I’m sure, that were archaic about the Harvard undergraduates but not in this way.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat other ways did it appear archaic to you?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm... well as I said we didn’t have that much to do with the undergraduates.  Um I had -– I got to know a couple of them because, you know, a couple of them took graduate courses in linguistics or whatever and I met them and they were kind of rebels anyway.  Um I had a brother who came to um \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=900.0,1200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yale as an undergraduate, like the year after I, I had started and I [coughs] -- he and his roommate who’s a friend from Bronxville but had, had also gone to some other boarding school had came by to my apartment and visiting my roommate at the time was a fellow sociology graduate student who was kind of weedy .  (laughter)  And the next day I was having lunch with my brother and his roommate -- that, there’s that diner on the corner of Chapel and Howe; [somewhere] there used to be a diner there, I don’t know if it still is.  And a couple of um slightly bedraggled townspeople walked across the street and and and my brother’s roommate, David, said, “Oh are those graduate students?”  (laughter) but that was kind of their attitude towards, you know, graduate students and so forth.  Um but it just (pause) as I said I don’t, don’t know how else there wasn’t -– I didn’t have enough contact –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWith the undergraduates to have much more of a sense of that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you um... with the, with the, with the women’s dorm being Helen, Helen Hadley Hall or whatever it became, um did you get a sense that somehow it was somewhat second-class or less important than the other?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhat the dorm?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell the men lived -– the male students lived in the hall of graduate studies.  It was -– yeah, it was kind of an annex.  Um, I don’t think the guys had a particular great situation either though.  You know, so I can’t really say that the facilities were worse than what the guys had.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, no, I didn’t have that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou didn’t have that feeling.  One of two people have said to me that they felt that there just wasn’t the same lavishness about Helen Hadley as there was in the, in the undergraduate colleges.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh sure.  Oh yes.  First of all it was a modern building; the rooms were small um but compared to the hall of graduate studies -– in some ways they’re not comparable; it’s like apples and oranges because you have a building that was built in the late-fifties versus whenever the hall of graduate studies was built but that was built from a very different style and kind of, you know, all that stone and -– but those rooms weren’t so great either.  Um and the undergraduates -– sure the undergraduate college, which I got to know much better later on, are much, much more luxurious.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tHow –-\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tEverything was done for the undergraduate students.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes and it certainly um um that would seem to be the core of the of, of Yale’s mission in the world –-\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAbsolutely, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas the undergraduate teaching.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah, yeah.  My impression is from something I read in one of the Yale alumni things is that one of the recent deans or provosts or something like that had in fact made some significant improvements in graduate student laws and, you know, he’s established some sort of center -– I don’t know; you know of course by the time it gets described in the Yale alumni material, it looks better than it really is (laughter) but it has to -– otherwise they wouldn’t be doing their job.  But it just sounds like more facilities have been made available for graduate students and there’s more recognition of their needs and so forth; I think the fact that they -– did they unionize or did they just try to unionize, I can’t -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOh gosh, I can’t -- but I know there was a lot of talk about it but I’m not sure that they did.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSounded, sounded really poisonous at various times.  I mean, some of the faculty were really having -- horrible to their graduate students.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat wasn’t your experience?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, no.  Over the unionization –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOh right, oh yes, I’m sorry.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut that was, you know, it was what, ten years ago?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, something like that.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut so I’m, I’m saying that some of the improvements that have been made in the, in, in, in the loss of graduate students recently may be partly (laughter) responsive to all of that but nevertheless it sounds like it’s better.  But there -- nothing really was done for graduate students.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Were most of your graduate student peers men?  Or was it a fairly good mix of men and women?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(inaudible) was very small.  The year I started there were just two of us and the other student was male.  Um... \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=1200.0,1500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don’t think the classes ever got much bigger than four or five and there might be one or two women amongst those.  But nationally I think the numbers were, you know, 30, 40 percent would be the –-\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSo it was a field that was not that particularly hostile to women --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIn terms of graduate preparation.  Um -– \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you take courses in all the departments?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell to the extent that Sanskrit was in a different department, I did and because there was this other -- far Eastern languages was separate.  I don’t know [square] Sanskrit but it was in a different department; but anyway it was all right there.  They were all in the same order really in the hall of graduate studies.  Um so no I didn’t take -– I sat in one anthropology class for two classes; I decided that wasn’t -– I didn’t find it interesting.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat’s ironic. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell it was kinship and I thought it was they were playing games and it was –- anyway -– I had a lot of anthropology graduate student friends; a lot of my friends were in anthropology.  That’s how I met Sid.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause he was away; he was on leave the first two years I was there so...\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo that’s how you met your husband?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm (pause) -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you ever feel that as a woman you would be -– you wouldn’t be taken as seriously um in terms of plotting your career as a graduate student into the academic life as the -– as the men?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, I didn’t felt that.  Um, I was a, you know, a good student; people, as far as I could tell, encouraged me.  I got, you know, prestigious fellowships and so forth um um so no I didn’t feel that.  I didn’t feel that until after I got married and we came back to, to New Haven and I went and talked to one of um my professors who may have been chair at the time, I can’t remember.  And he -- we were talking about what I might do and, and he said, without blinking he said, of course we can’t offer you a job.  And I said, why?  And he said well because your husband’s here.  I mean what he meant was I couldn’t, he couldn’t, they couldn’t offer me a regular faculty position and there were other people who were more or less my peers, you know within the year or so, who were getting jobs.  And they didn’t end up getting tenure at Yale at all, you know, but they were instructors or assistant professors and um that’s that’s when I -- it became so blatant because up until then there had been no, no clue.  That was um -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo getting [money] was a bad -–\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(inaudible)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas a bad career move?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, terrible.  Terrible, but I didn’t know that at the time.  (laughter)\t\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Had you, had you been uh a graduate student long enough to think that you would have like a faculty position?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t think um I thought of anything else.  I probably should have been more thoughtful about my career but um I think I assumed that I would end up teaching somewhere, if not -– I didn’t particularly care whether it was at Yale or not.  In fact I remember I was offered a job in Hawaii because they were starting a new program and I turned it down um and I’m, I’ve never been sorry I turned it down but um... I assumed -- I turned it down because it was too far away and I didn’t want to be in Hawaii; I don’t particularly like Hawaii um so um but I assumed that I would get a job of that sort somewhere else and probably on the East Coast; I didn’t think of the West Coast at the time.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  So you, you actually got married then when you were still a graduate student?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  That was in ’64. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIn ’64.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo where would you have -– you, you at the dissertation level (inaudible)?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah but I had gotten a um -- I got interested in psycholinguistics and um there was a man up in um Boston at Children’s Hospital, a psychologist named Eric Lenneberg (sp?) who had been a fellow student of Chomsky’s, I think and whose \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=1500.0,1800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"theories on language learning and development that the language capacity -– development of language capacity um I think had a lot of influence on Chomsky.  Um it was that news and maturational thing that you had, you know, certain abilities which um developed up to a certain point -– you passed that you couldn’t, you know, learn a language very well without, you know, carrying an accent.  Um and he also thought language learning was totally independent of um intellectual capacity um and he had these um research programs going and I got a job with him.  And I was up there for a couple of years doing that and also working on my thesis and attending um Chomsky’s classes at MIT, which was very exciting; by then there was a full-fledged program.  And the Yale um faculty at, and linguistics had become one of the obstinate um opponents of Chomsky linguistics.  It was really quite... intense.  \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThey really uh -– I think they felt very, very threatened; it was kind of sad but they continued that way for years afterwards.  But anyway the MIT um [view] was really very, very stimulating.  Um and the research with Eric Lenneberg (sp?) was interesting; we were doing Mongoloid because -– to try to proof that um language learning was independent -– \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIntellectual capacity.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt, it isn’t.  (laughter)  Not entirely.  Um and he also had a, a research project involving deaf children because he thought that, you know, whether you were deaf or not, you could handle the language capacity.  And what else did he... oh, Eric had all sorts of interesting ideas.  Anyway so that’s -–\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd you’re also being a, a faculty wife at the same time?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo this is before I got married.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThis was before, before you got married, right.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah.  No I was up in -– I was in Cambridge; I was back in Cambridge and um that was a very interesting couple of years and I um made a lot of friends up there again.  Um and then Sid and I got married... let’s see I went up there in ’62; Sid and I got married in the summer of ’64.  He came up to Boston because uh MIT had offered him a job; they wanted to start an anthropology program and um he was torn in that point -– you know Yale was really -– Charlie Taylor had just come in and [came in] and I think he’d just become president and they wanted to um -– they were very interested in people like Sid on the faculty.  And so they were, you know, putting pressure on him not to leave and so the arrangement was -– the deal was struck that he would go to MIT for a semester and before he made up his mind he would come back to Yale for a semester.  Um so we were in, at MIT for a semester and I think Sid was quite tempted um because his students were so bright; he said they were really -– I think at that time, in 1964... three-fourths of them had 800s on their math -– 1964, you know, people didn’t get 800s very often and yet the class was primarily -- and he said they were just bright and interesting and they asked great questions; I mean Yale students were good but they weren’t as good as the MIT students, not at that time.  Um but he, he -- Sid is very loyal to anthropology and he wanted a department and they didn’t want a department; he didn’t like the idea of having just a program that would have been within humanities or something like that.  So that was a thing that, you know, made him not kind of take that right away and then we came back to Yale and um...\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tHow did you feel about coming back to Yale?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh I had no particular objection; I would have preferred MIT, I think because, I mean, I prefer Boston and Cambridge.  I thought, you know, people at MIT were more um intellectually open just generally -– there were four (inaudible) whereas I think Yale was more.  But we came back and um it was clear that what was happening at Yale was, you know, they were opening a new chapter and that was pretty exciting too; I mean aside from all the things that impinged on me personally I could tell that what was going on in the rest of the -- on the rest of the campus.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo what sort of things were going on \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=1800.0,2100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that were -- that you find interesting? \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell, there, there, you know, the -- they were talking about changing admissions policies um they offered ah Sid the mastership of Pierson College; those masters all is -- were all Yale types as far as we could tell.  And um... I mean that was one of things that we spent a fair amount of time on because um that possibility was kind of... it just was a part of our lives for a while um and Sid, I think, was very tempted um partly because he liked [Keenman Law] and he liked Charlie Taylor; I thought Charlie Taylor was terrific.  Um [Keenman] I just didn’t know as well and I didn’t have the same sense of him that Sid did.  Um and um anyway so we talked to a lot of people about that; um we talked to the currents occupants of, of masterships at both the masters and their wives um and I discovered that being a masters wife -- even from the most loyal people -- it was, it was a terrible job and it was ah mis ah underappreciated um and they were always supposed to be good sports and they always were publicly anyway and they didn’t really complain so much but as they described, they ended up doing -- they were, they were kind of innkeepers for (laughter), for students dates; for the students parents.  Um they got no pay for it um and yet it took a lot of time.  Now that, that, they would say well of course we get a free house; I said yeah but I don’t know I -- just didn’t seem like enough and also it’s not -- I didn’t want to be an innkeeper’s wife, right.  Um... so anyway I, I, I suggested to Charlie Taylor -- I think about the time we were saying no that they should pay wives and I mean that met with a horrified response; pay wives, you know, they’re supposed to do it for love or something like that .  (laughter)  I thought that was ridiculous but I think that’s the way a lot of people felt about and probably even about some of the things that men did for Yale -- that you did it out of loyalty or a sense of devotion --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd, and I didn’t have that feeling about Yale; I didn’t support -- or my husband (laughter) -- I didn’t see why I should do that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDo you think it was, to some extent --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMaybe because you were both outsiders at being Jewish --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat I would feel that way?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, that, that, that you did have -- despite all of it you had a sort of outsider status?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tDespite all of what?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWell despite all the um encouragement, particularly for Sid to --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh sure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tTo, to, do -- you know, do, to take a mastership in all of that --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou either held yourselves outside it or did actually feel outsiders at some level or another.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure, but I mean Sid, Sid would -- certainly felt an outsider and you know -- but outsiders can respond in different ways; I think left himself, you know.  If my opinion -- he would have taken the job because I think he’s more of a team player, if you will, than I am at, at least in, in that sense and um... I think he, he’s more... it’s easier to appeal to him um to you know kind of contribute to something um whereas especially for me since my role would have been secondary, I tended to look at it more practically... because um I didn’t see that it was going to do me any good.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, so you didn’t have the same collegial feel for you as it might have been for him.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Um have you read um [Polly Bock’s] account of being ah, ah the masters wife at [Sea] -- was it Saybrook or Branford she was at?  It might have been Branford --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWho was, who was [Polly Bock]?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm, um, she wouldn’t have been around, I think, by the time you happened along because that was during the war --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tShe was ah, she was -- and she wrote a book about being --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThere was a -- was her [huband], her husband Norman [Bock]?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI think so, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tHe became provost, I think, for a short while.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes he was.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI (inaudible) that, right?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh yeah I -- no I don't --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, yes.  And certainly it was \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=2100.0,2400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":", it was a sense, sense of well you just kind of rolled up your sleeves and got on with it --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWith all these children you had (laughter) suddenly to look after. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm and ah, I mean it’s a very entertaining book --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t[It is.]\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut there, but there is a sense of (inaudible) and you had to do your duty.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah sure --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou got the call and you did it.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I, I think for women of that generation when their horizons were really more bounded um it made sense to do that but, you know, unfortunately for or fortunately I had different ah views of what I was going to do with my life.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat did you -- I mean what, what did you -- you were obviously going to -- you were, I think some people like to call a [captive] wife --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBecause you were married --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tTo, to senior faculty.  Did you have any sense of what you might be able to do um that you want to do rather than what circumstances was going to force upon you?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI guess I still figured but I didn’t think about it very clearly -- I obviously should have been -- um I still figured I was going to become um a professional linguist ah with a teaching post somewhere.  Um but I hadn’t figured out how I was going to do it.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  (laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause it didn’t -- I mean the possibilities around New Haven were not very good.  I taught at the Hartford Seminary for a semester or two -- in one class.  That’s um -- they had a good linguistics program up there and um, um one of the, the faculty members um you know asked me if I wanted -- they had a small program -- they didn’t have affirmative action in those days and the way people were hired (laughter) was really kind of very, very formal --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhich is I’m sure the way most jobs are um given at Yale until affirmative action.  There just weren’t any procedures; I mean affirmative action changed everything.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Well we’ll come onto that in a, in a, in a little while.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm... [do you] --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI, I -- all I can say is I knew I was frustrated --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUh-huh.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut I wasn’t thinking very -- I was still thinking well I should finish my thesis and then I would think about it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThe next [step].\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yeah, but in the event you didn’t finish your thesis?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI didn't think of that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t uh I didn’t think that far ahead.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Why didn’t you finish your thesis?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhy didn’t I finish my thesis.  I got discouraged; there was nobody at Yale that I could really talk to about that sort of thing um because it was kind of Chomskian um -- and there was nobody there that I could’ve talked to -- um and I just wasn’t -- I think I probably could’ve found people elsewhere that I could’ve communicated with but I didn’t.  Um...\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you ever get the sense that maybe they thought you were less serious because you were [an unmarried]?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tPerhaps, I don’t, I don’t know.  Yeah, no I think they wanted me to finish, yeah -- but I didn’t have that much to do with my department um once after I got back.  Um [Bernard Block] who was the chairman and who was kind of one of the great figures in linguistics -- um we saw each other occasionally because, I don’t know, I always liked him; he liked me um and his wife had died -- no she hadn’t... I can’t remember -- no, yes she had died and I think he was more lonely.  We had him up for dinner a number of times um... but, you know, we didn’t really talk about my career or anything that... yeah, well I don’t know, maybe they didn’t care if I finished, I don’t know.  Yeah, I, I -- you know, it’s all kind of dim.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah but you were clearly frustrated trying to figure out what you were going to do next.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut not... but I suppose there wasn’t really anyone who could assume a kind of mentoring role in that respect because there wouldn’t have been many professional women around campus, would there?  Did you meet uh other married women -- other women married to faculty -- who, who were um professionals in their own right --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNot many --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDuring your early years?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNot many, no. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, I don’t think so.  I don’t think so and I -- it didn’t, it didn’t occur to me... I mean even though I knew it was discrimination because I was a woman -- it didn’t occur to me to seek help from another woman.  I mean I uh just wasn’t, you know, being logical; I’m taking the logical steps but \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=2400.0,2700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"-- uh so I, I don’t -- I never uh looked for help in that direction.  I’m not sure what would have been available --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut, but I didn’t look.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  I suppose that... would have been the culture then?  People didn’t actively seek out --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMentors or --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMentors.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right, that’s right, yeah.  The, the name -- the word mentor I think I first kind of in the women’s movement --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat was later.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, it was certainly -- I don’t think I’ve come across the, the word before ’69, ’70, that sort of time.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh-huh.  Uh-huh.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Um do you think being a faculty wife was a fairly lonely occupation?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBeing a faculty wife?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) Gee, I don’t know um... I’m not sure... how you would define lonely, I guess, or what -- you mean did I not know anybody else who was a faculty wife?  I didn’t know many other faculty wives um and I’m trying to think who my friends were at the time um... I um I met some people at -- one of -- I got a part-time job in this Latin American exhibit which was um being part together at the art gallery um and one of the people I met through that is -- she’s actually now um a professor in School of Design -- Sheila DeBretville (sp?) --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t know if you’ve [heard of her] --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tShe’s terrific.  Anyway she was um finishing -- had just finished her degree in graphic design and she was working at Yale Press, you know, on graphic design stuff and um she worked on the catalog and I got to know her that way um and I saw her [some] -- I’m trying to think -- I had -- yeah, and I missed um some of my friends that I’d made in Cambridge; somehow it was easier to meet people in Cambridge.  Um... I don’t -- I can’t think of any other people that I was, you know, was close to at the time; we had some friends that we saw from Iran but they were in New York, people like that.  Um... none of my linguistics, you know, peers was I close to.  Um, I hadn’t been particularly before --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know so um (pause) yeah I don’t really know how to answer that question.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo, it just occurred to me --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd that’s why I asked the question.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Um... it’s funny I, I, I don’t think I felt lonely; looking back on it I probably was but it -- I didn’t, you know, um -- where that’s -- I think I may have felt or I think I was somewhat isolated but I didn’t feel isolated; I mean there was a lot of other stuff going on um, um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd of course I think ah probably a lot of people who were on the faculty -- their wives would have been out in the suburbs with their children.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tA lot of them had children see and we didn’t have children and I didn’t want children and that was one of things that kind of kept me apart from the --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOnes of the other faculty wives or -- um, I wasn’t interested in, you know, school problems.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThe other, the other thing -- again it’s just occurred to me that a lot of people have, have commented on uh that in the, in the sixties and seventies, that in many departments there was a very big divide between junior faculty and senior faculty. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm and that... on the grounds that some junior -- senior faculty felt that because most of the juniors were not going to get tenure, why should we make the social investment in the junior people because they’re going to move on --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd I just wondered because you were of an age where junior faculty would have been your natural kind of peer group --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut you were married to, to a tenured professor --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut he was a... you know a fairly young um -- a lot of our friends were junior faculty --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I was -- as you were describing it, I’m thinking to myself whether that was very practical and realistic of these people to have stayed away because many of our friends ended up leaving --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause they didn’t get tenure.  Um and that was hard.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm there -- they tended to be people \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=2700.0,3000.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um that had some connection with Sid in some way or another um but like -- there was ah Tony Mango (sp?) and his wife; they were in sociology -- they were Latin American types um... I’m trying to think who else... there were a couple in anthropology that uh we were close to um who didn’t get tenure and they moved on um sometimes acrimoniously um because they felt -- and, and Sid in one case felt very strongly he should have gotten tenure.  Um... I’m trying to think who else; God. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI mean I suppose fairly early in your marriage too, wasn’t Sid chair?  Was he --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know, he was chair -- no, before we got married.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBefore you got married, right.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tHe was chair and director of graduate studies --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThe same year and um after that he said, no more, so one of the conditions for um when he came down here was that he would never have to have an administrative position so he never was chair.  Um... he doesn’t like administration; he works hard at it and it, it comes out okay but he’s not a particularly good administrator um so, you know, I think that was a wise --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI was just, I was just trying to think that maybe because of his -- all his uh administrative duties on top of his research and everything else -- teaching -- that maybe that also... made it more difficult for you to try to find a place --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhere you were comfortable.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell it wasn’t because he was chair; um I’m trying to -- you know I should do it chronologically -- we were married in ’64; we came back in ’65 -- you know we lived in the tower of HGS for that first semester -- that was, that was --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t(laughter) What a great place to live.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I think we lived on the 12th floor and there was um a former provost and his uh wife lived upstairs and there was of course one elevator and... the wife -- I mean he was really old, I think, and she was still energetic and she was very strong-willed and the, the elevator motor was at the top so when the elevator was operating it disturbed them and she would just close the elevator at a certain hour.  And so, you know, we’d have to call the campus police and they’d have to come and go up -- turn it on; I refused to walk because I just didn’t think she should do that.  Um I mean I understood um but -- um we had a nice view and um that was the first protests um -- there was a young philosophy uh faculty member who was very, very popular and he was denied tenure --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThis was 1965, remember, and the students went out and protested; they had, you know --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, that’s really [right] and I remember the newspapers and television came up and Yale was horrified, you know -- here were Yale undergrads -- uh, uh undergraduates and graduate students protesting the denial of tenure -- and we could watch it; see from our window.  Um anyway so we lived there; then as... you know the ongoing kind of wooing of Sid, they got us that lovely house across the -- between this -- gymnasium and the cemetery --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMmm.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t[That] row of houses.  Not only that but they redid the whole thing and charged us a ridiculously low rent for years and years and we paid $200 a month for years.  They never raised it; I think at one point they raised it to $225 but... um I think that was when Dick Cooper came in and decided that, you know, he had to get money from somewhere.  Um but you know -- so that took a lot of time for, for me to deal with and I learned a lot about um how certain aspects of Yale worked because the physical plant was involved and they put roadblocks everywhere and it turned out they put road blocks um in, in, in the way of Charlie Taylor -- they hated him because he was trying to kind of modernize the university and they complained about him all the time.  When, when we were still thinking about the mastership and we went over to Pierson and looked at it and I thought, “Ooh, all this wood-paneling, I don’t like it.”  And I said I would want it painted white and I mentioned it to the head of physical plant because he came over to look at things with us; he said never -- he said he would not paint, you know, all this beautiful -- and I mentioned it to Charlie Taylor; he said, he’ll paint it white if that’s what you want if you took the -- but, so there was -- and then that, you know, after we moved into the house and tried to get it renovated there was the same kind of struggle.  So that took, you know, about a year or so --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tTo kind of all straight -- straighten out.  So I’m trying to figure out \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=3000.0,3300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"what I was doing and why -- how I filled my time so I didn’t --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWell you, you have talked about this, this ah job you had ah in the --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAt the art gallery --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIn the gallery.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat was only for a semester at the most.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, that was part-time.  Um, I -- well yeah, I met kind of some of the graduate students in history and history of art who were working on writing pieces where (inaudible) so I got -- because my previous experience at Yale was kind of linguistics with some friends and I had friends in mathematics and friends in anthropology and stuff like that but, you know, at the student level -- and I didn’t know people in art and stuff like that so I learned something about -- and I learned about how um staff people can thwart (laughter) because there was a woman who was supposedly running the program who, who wasn’t running it very well and she was constantly interfering with what the, the guy who was running the art exhibit wanted to do.  Um, so those were early work experiences; I mean I hadn’t worked before, you know, in, in, in a kind of this office setting.  Um... and I did that and then we went to Iran.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm and that was -- I wanted to go; Sid didn’t particularly but he, he came um and we spent a year there and I was supposed to be working on children's language because I wanted to test out some of the [Lenenberg] -- you know, kind of [broaden] the hypotheses on um -- and we um -- a, a friend of mine who was Iranian who was a linguist um traveled around to various places with us because I said, look, I can’t tell; I want some -- a village because Sid wanted to work in a village but um I want a village where they spoke standard Persian because I don’t want to get involved in, you know, a different dialect and -- so I said, but I can’t always tell, can you -- so she came with us.  And we found -- we went to a number of places and they all spoke the wrong kind of dialect.  And we went to um this one village near [Shirazz] and they spoke -- I couldn’t tell it was great standard Persian, you know, which made sense because that was the home of [Farsian] (inaudible) so it kind of fulfilled all my kind of notions of what Iranian languages were like.  Um and so we, we set up there and we had a, a apartment in, in the city and we were out in, out in this village where we had rented a kind of a large room um on the second floor of a, a new house that had built -- been built by the head of the village.  And um we had each hired a kind of teenage boy to help us do things -- you know running around just do this and that -- and they were talking -- sitting while we were doing something else, they were sitting, talking to each other from the fireplace; I didn’t understand a word they said and I said what are you speaking, they said, oh, answering me in perfect standard Persian (laughter) -- we’re speaking our mother tongue. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t(laughter) Actually that’s why their Persian was so pure.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause they swapped the other from what they had learned in school.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell it was Persian and it wasn’t -- linguistically, it wasn’t so different but, you know, there are certain linguistic differences that make it really hard to understand even if they’re slight because of the phonological whatever or they lose certain prefaces, that’s what that -- and eventually I figured that out but I just -- I wasn’t going to try it so I ended up working on other things including this [Turkey] -- \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  (laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd my friend [Bahndri] had never ever -- you know I’m sure there are people speaking that in the background, you know -- but anyway she didn’t pick it up.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm so you came back from --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIran.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tFrom Iran um and I would imagine by that time civil rights and maybe to some extent antiwar movement had begun --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhen you got back to -- what uh -- did you find Yale a, a somewhat different place by the time you got back?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSixty-six.  Yeah, it was changing, sure; I think by then, you know, the [Inkey Clark] admissions policies had changed so that the students who were coming in had changed um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo there were more minority students coming in?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt wasn’t that there were so many minority students but even the regular undergraduates were different.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThey weren’t --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tA different [catchment].\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm from a more diverse background, you know.  The percentage of private school -- people had gone down; \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=3300.0,3600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don’t know to what extent but he just felt that -- um when we were in Iran I remember occasionally we would get a hold of a copy of Time magazine or something.  Um I remember reading about Rat Brown (sp?) and his saying that violence was as American as apple pie and I thought wow.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat wasn’t the America you left.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhat?  You know things like that catch my fancy um but um -- and I read about bra-burning at some point, just a second.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI’ll just, I’ll just halt it here.  (break in audio) On the clock so let’s see.  Yep, so it’s recording again.  Um what we’ve got to -- you got hold of a, a Time magazine when you were out in, in Iran and uh you mentioned one or two things about that.  Um so you got back to --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tCan I go back -- this --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yeah sure.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, one of the things I should have mentioned was the antiwar movement had started --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I remember going to a couple of, you know, the big rallies in Washington and elsewhere --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas that -- would that have been --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSixty-five.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSixty-five.  Right, as early as that?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat -- I think that was the first one.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh... maybe ’66 but it was certainly before we went to Iran.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd that was, you know, something that, you know, preoccupied us.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, so between the antiwar movement and civil rights because I think -- Sid certainly was very involved in the setting up of the first African-American program here --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut that wasn’t until later.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat... was about ’69 or something -- I think that came about.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(inaudible)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut clearly that’s where all your political interests were?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Mm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Did --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, the antiwar movement was before we went to Iran even and uh it continued after we got back um because it went on and on.  Um... not even -- I can’t even tell you at this point what we did particularly but you know um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDo you think it -- did you think it changed the atmosphere on campus?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Sure it did.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIn what ways did people become more (inaudible)?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell [today people -- it was political].\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Um... it, it -- all sorts of people, I think, who hadn’t been very political before became more political; it was galvanizing --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm it, it um -- in a funny way it was an, an enabler; it, it um provided um something about around which people could organize or want to organize or think about organizing which they hadn’t thought about before --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt was very apolitical.  Um... so that was, you know -- that, in a way, helped to make the Yale -- new Yale -- but it, it couldn’t have um worked if they hadn’t started getting different kinds of students too.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, so --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt was all kind of -- it was a confluence.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo in, in many ways those uh, those uh admissions reforms were very, very critical --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tTo beginning to change the character of the institution?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure, sure.  And, and that, that there were more black students and then we ended up getting to know very well that those students um in that first class or two -- the ones who would have been class of... ’68, I think, something like that -- um that the um -- and at some point -- it must have been after we got back from Iran, they had a conference on Afro-American studies and Charlie Taylor and this -- it was always the same guys, Bob Dahl (sp?) and somebody else that were uh meeting with some of the -- a couple of these students on a regular basis and they had -- Charlie had been convinced that um, um, you know, the Afro-American experience was really worth studying in a program and so forth.  Um, um and they started asking various people to come with them -- faculty members -- and one of them was Sid and there were other people in... you know, just to kind of discuss what they thought would be in a Afro-American studies program and um... yeah, that was after we got back from Iran um and then Sid was asked to be the chair of the kind of oversight committee um... and I don’t -- I have to think of when that would have been; it was probably a year or so after we got back from Iran and then so he \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=3600.0,3900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"got more and more involved in that and, and they used to meet at our house a lot -- the students.  Armsted (sp?) Robinson was one of them; he was terrific; he was a very funny guy.  Um and Don Ogilvy who just died, you know, and Glen DeShabara (sp?) somewhat less but um there was another one Craig Foster um -- I don’t -- you may know these names -- \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSome of them I do, yeah --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI’m cer-certain I do.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah um Armsted (sp?) Robinson was this skinny little guy with a [bo-beard] and a big afro and um at one point he broke his jaw or something because it had to be wired closed and so he would drool out of the side -- onto his [bo-beard] and he was in our backyard and I wanted him to string up some lights and we had a tree that he was climbing and the people on that -- our neighbors on that side were very proper (laughter) -- and here was this kid climbing up a tree, drooling and saying, “why can’t I get this motherfucker up here?”\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t(laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I -- I could see because our dining room was on the second floor that the, the lady was sitting out there going -- it was great fun.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t(laughter) That’s lovely.  Um... it -- was -- do you think you could pinpoint a moment in your own life when feminism, as it were, consciously entered it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know I was thinking about that because you had kind of asked me that in a email -- um... I remember going to a lecture or panel at the law school; we were already living on York Square so we’d come back for the month -- um of a group of feminists um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBecause this would have been before there were any female undergraduates.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm and there weren’t a whole lot of people there, you know, and I just -- I don’t why -- I read about it; it sounded interesting so I, I went across -- I just, you know, I had to cross the parking lot; it was really convenient.  Um and I thought to myself, kind of what they’re saying, you know, really resonates; it’s very familiar and so forth.  And I, I remember being kind of all set up by that because it’s, it’s so nice to have all these kind of inchoate doubts and, and concerns, you know, reflected kind of clearly by people.  Um I didn’t do anything about it; I remember reading about it occasionally and so forth but I never, never got involved personally in anything on campus um because the, the Afro-American [thing and more thing] to me were... I don’t know just more important; there were [more grouping] at the time.  Um and I didn’t know any people on campus who were involved in the women’s thing --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWell there would have been... well there were so very few faculty women and there were -- of course there were graduate students who were women but there were no undergraduates -- so there wasn’t, as it were, a solid body of women --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOn campus.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah.  Yeah.  Um I remember when Elliot Wasserman was appointed as head of whatever that -- the co-education --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, special assistant to Kingman Brewster.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, that was ’68.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right and um... before that I -- there was nobody that I could identify that was involved in kind of women’s issues.  Um, you know, as I said I didn’t look for it but one didn’t read about it either.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm... I, I would say, you know, that there were a couple of things that -- when we came back from Iran and then you just kind of get back into the chronology um Sid agreed to take on this five-year BA program which was an undergraduate program that Brewster had obtaining a pile a money for from the Carnegie Corporation which allowed um undergraduates to take a year off between their sophomore and junior years and in a um non-western um culture or country um and um work for a year and that um was well-funded; the students that were selected -- and that part of the job involves setting up the selection process for each group -- there were twelve students a year so it was very kind of select \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=3900.0,4200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"um and they got a lot of attention and um training -- should I talk louder?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt’s okay; no, no it’s okay.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm and um I worked on that program and -- I don’t know if it was full-time -- but it ah -- I found it very interesting because we corresponded --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas it paid employment?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh sure.  Yeah.  No I didn’t really believe in volunteering.  (laughter)  I don’t know why but I did -- I didn’t.  Um... anyway um no I can’t, I can’t imagine that I would have worked on something like that for free; I mean the job at the art gallery was paying.  Um... but anyway so I did that for a couple of years um and then sometime -- I don’t know -- I was offered -- then we were thinking of going to Paris for a year um but all that time I would say I, I didn’t have any particular connection with the women’s movement.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI’m sure I read more about it but um -- because there was more being written about it -- but n-not a whole lot; it wasn’t, it wasn’t a significant part of my life at all.  Um anyway so we were um about to go to Paris for a year and um then I was offered a job in the admissions office.  Um (pause) that must have been about the time they were thinking about getting -- admitting women --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I liked that idea a lot; I don’t know why but um I guess I had gotten to know people in the Dean’s office from working on that five-year BA program so that’s how my name came up at all.  Um and I was very tempted but then I -- we went and saw a movie about Paris and I decided, you know, that was more important.  And that was a fabulous year because I um was able to take a lot of Iranian language stuff because they’re all -- there’s, there’s the Center for, you know, Oriental Languages and I made lots of friends there and I’m certainly glad I -- we went.  Um then we came back and um while we were in Paris I was um... I don’t remember whether I got a letter or what but anyway George May who was dean of Yale College um asked [King] -- was in Paris and came by and asked if I would, you know, be interesting in the deanship of Saybrook College.  \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd I said sure.  (laughter)  It sounded interesting because it would enable to work with undergraduates because I really liked that experience and that was when I got a sense of how lively that part of Yale was; now maybe it wasn’t so lively before and it became more lively after, let’s say, ’65 and maybe if I’d been exposed to it, let’s say in 1960 or ’61, I would not -- but the undergraduates were, were terrific.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo were you then um -- you became dean of Saybrook that -- before there were any women undergraduates?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, there were women undergraduates.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThere were women so that would have been --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat was ’71, ’72.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSeventy-one, ’72 -- yes, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSo we were in Paris in ’70, ’71.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBrenda Jubin (sp?) was the first woman dean -- Morris College, I think [or something] -- I don’t remember and she had been Dean for at least a couple of years before I became Dean.  Um... yeah, I came back and um, um... was -- I only was Dean for a year; I’m sorry I -- in many ways that was the best job I’ve ever had.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause I thought that uh, uh the students were so fabulous.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, so um... I, I presume that one of the reasons why you were invited to the job was because the, the university had gone co-ed --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIn the meantime -- I mean -- less likely to have got that position if there hadn’t been women undergraduates.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNot only less likely; I think it would have been unlikely.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUnlikely.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(inaudible)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t think that they -- they, they weren’t hiring women... period.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know El-Elga and Etta Onatt (sp?) were assistant deans in the graduate school but there were women there and there was absolutely no reason in quotes for them to consider hiring women for the undergraduate --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tPart of the university.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat was the thing you enjoyed best about the job?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tJust talking to students; working out their problems um and lot’s of them had a lot of problems -- others didn’t but they were just interesting.  One of the things I knew I had to deal with kind of odd entering was the, the black student \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=4200.0,4500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"problem on campus -- at, in Saybrook; for a, a number of years um like two or three there had been um a big... uh controversy; each year that the students picked their rooms for the following year -- it was done by lots, I think in, in uh every college -- um... but the black students in Saybrook had determined that they needed to have their own separate entry and um it had been, I guess, um a controversy that went to the corporation and um both black members of the corporation -- Maryann Adelmann (sp?) and um Leon Higgenbottom (sp?) -- felt strongly that, that shouldn’t be permitted because they thought that was, you know, segregation.  Um and the black students were absolutely adamant -- I don’t know actually when I think about it how they managed to... prevail at all because when you think about it --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhy did the, why did the students want a separate entrance?  Did they feel --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh it was [just like] black nationalism.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt was, it was, it was part of the black power?  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, they needed -- black power; they needed to have their own entry because white students didn’t understand them and they wanted to be able to build unity and all that kind of stuff.  And most of the black students in Saybrook lived there with -- in that group.  There was... I think two who didn’t that I knew of um... and (pause) what I wanted to do was to figure out how to resolve the problem before the drawing of the lots in the spring so one of the things I did at the beginning of uh my tenure in that position was just to meet -- talked to a lot of people; I would ask almost anybody on -- the students um that I met or um -- and I was very close friend -- I had become a very close friend of the guy who was director of the Afro-American studies program, [Roy], and so I could kind of get his opinion or -- on, on anything.  Um the first time he came to see me in Saybrook, um he came and he was very annoyed because he had been accosted by the black students and told something about he shouldn’t cooperate with whitey and blah, blah, blah and he said, you can’t tell me what to do.  Anyway so he arrived kind of -- in my office -- ready to help me figure out how to deal with the problem.  Um... and a couple of the students that I asked about the problem were so (inaudible) at describing what had happened and who took what positions on what and, and they could even, you know, describe the-the rationale for those positions.  They were very dispassionate; well they turned out to be very bright undergraduates, you know, um and that, that um one of them in particular, you know -- he was just a very useful undergraduate to kind of figure out all sorts of things.  Um, um but anyway I -- in the process I met, you know, if I had particular questions I met a lot of -- I got to know a lot of students immediately kind of that way.  Um and I set up a committee; that’s what I ended up doing with people kind of who were the most vociferous opponents of the black entry to a couple of, of the black students -- one male, one female.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWho wanted the --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell who were in the entry --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, one was a, a fierce adherent and the other one was this uh female; the female is quite different from males and that’s another thing I learned early on and figured would probably be the case and, and it was.  Um they were there; they didn’t feel particularly strongly about it but they weren’t going to fight it but they also had a lot of um complaints about the black male students because they were pretty chauvinistic that males students and they would get their dates from faster on the weekends and stuff like that; tell the women what -- how to believe, et cetera, and these, these kids -- the girls were, you know, they didn’t like being told what to do.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo they really had a double-binded --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAbsolutely.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThey had the gender issue and the, and the -- as well as the race issue.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you find um --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I think there was a lot of pressure on them not to be um disloyal publicly.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSo it took a while for, you know -- before I got them to tell me that.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=4500.0,4800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"INTERVIEWER:\tYeah, did you find that um, uh that women students sought you out?  Black and white?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSome.  Some.  \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSome not.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think some, some -- yeah because I was dean, some may have been more interested because I was female but... the, the students talk to the deans a lot ah so I don’t have a sense that, you know, they sought me out particularly because I was female. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you get any, any criticism or resentment from the, from the male undergraduates?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) Not that I knew of.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI’m sure there was some.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  I, I, I seem to remember one of our conversations -- I can’t remember if it was on email or actually when we were speaking -- you did mention one instance of um a [yon] graduate who probably had, had too much to drink asking you if you were some sort of experiment.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) [I don’t think so.]\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  It was -- maybe it was somebody else but I certainly do remember somebody saying that to me.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  I don’t think -- it doesn’t -- that doesn’t ring a bell.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDoes it not ring a bell?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt doesn’t ring a bell.  I’m sure people thought that --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut they didn’t say that that I can remember.  Um (pause) there were a couple of guys who lived above us who were hockey players, you know, and um, um they get -- they would get very drunk and um they would do things and they would get in trouble with the police and I -- with the Yale police -- and, and um as a dean you get to know the, the, the chief of police very well (laughter) and, and his name was Lou something-or-another and we got along fine uh but one of the things um they did was they, they would rip off parking meters; they brought me one as a present -- (inaudible) I don’t know -- you know, they were trying to ingratiate themselves because I bailed them out a number of times.  Anyway the police chief came by to see me one day and, and somehow we were in our living room rather than uh my office and it was one of these -- you know the Yale colleges that they have these huge rooms, right -- our living room was thirty feet long and the parking meter was sitting on the far fireplace; he looks [right at it], he said where did you get that parking meter?  And I said I don’t know, it appeared on my doorstep one day or something.  Um but that was the kind of thing that students would do -- I mean people wouldn’t rip off parking meters and say they’re cute --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSo yeah I don’t, I don’t um -- people thought that the way I handled that housing thing was terrific.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat -- how did -- how was it resolved?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t know, we talked and talked; we had these meetings and they bitched at each other and I don’t even remember the final resolution but there was a rela -- resolution; there wasn’t a public dispute um and people were, you know, more or less happy; I think, I think there was still an entry -- I don’t remember what the compromise was but there was one.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Do you think your approach to, to the issue was different because you were a woman?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd, and I knew a lot about black students by then or, or a lot more and I, I spent a lot of time talking to them.  Um some of them were absolute jerks; I mean I think they remained jerks.  Um the guy who was the head of the group -- his name was Joe Lawson and -- but he had taken the name [G.T. Hadi], G.T. for short -- and um they would do things that would really irritate other students because they would bring in all these little delinquent kids from -- and let them loose in the college and they would rip things up, off -- you know, stereo sets and stuff.  They said, well, you know, these are our people and so forth and I said, yeah but, you know, you just can’t -- your people can’t rip off other people.  Um and they would play their music really loud at, you know, 3:00 in the morning so that it would wake people up.  I didn’t hear it because our bedroom was at the other end but, you know, everybody kind of down below, up above and -- and so they would call the police and so forth and there would be a dispute.  Um I can’t remember that -- but that kind of thing and, and um I remember talking to a couple of them because of -- there had been a series of complaints -- and they said well, you know, um that’s the way black people live; and that was the answer.  And I said I’m sure your parents don’t live that way.  And later on I met their parents; they were extremely middle-class -- upper middle-class, you know, professional people; very proper and I’m sure they were -- \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=4800.0,5100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"they would have been absolutely horror -- and somehow I knew that; you look at them and you don’t know that but I thought these kids, I don’t care if they are fellowship students or if they are special, they don’t come from ordinary ghettos, you know.  They couldn’t get in; I mean I don’t care what kind of -- and um they kind of look at me, you know.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you um -- did you ever encounter any kind of kind of sexual harassment of the, of the female undergraduates?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tDo you -- black or all?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAll.  All.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo, it was --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know if it occurred, nobody complained [really] about it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think sexual harassment was a, a concept that um didn’t become kind of more formalized and therefore people would understand it -- I mean people probably experienced -- I’m sure they experienced it but they didn’t quite -- you know until you can give it a name --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSometimes you don’t know what to complain about.  I remember talking to somebody who was not a faculty member, who was a staff person over in the [physical] side of things who on the whole was really helpful about a lot of these things but the way he would talk about his secretary -- I think, you know, you shouldn’t do that, and I said, why not?  I said, because, you know, you’re discriminating against her because of her sex.  And he said that’s ridiculous.  Well, you know, at that time um I’m sure 90 percent, 95 percent of the population would’ve agreed that, you know, making lewd comments about your secretary’s physique was not illegal... but, you know, I, I, I thought it should be.  (laughter) But that was not... yeah, I don’t know if anybody ever filed a complaint with the dean’s office even.  I think I would have heard about it because um... a person I got to know very well that year was Bobbie Hill (inaudible) --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tShe had just come as an assistant dean.  She was African-American and she was -- I think felt quite out of place and I, I met her partly because John Wilkinson said, you know, if you haven’t met her, you should and if um you know, take, take her under your wing -- introduce her to some people because she’s, she’s a shy person so Bobbie became my good friend on campus um and we spent a lot of time together and she was um -- she had a very hard time, I think, at the first year or so; eventually she kind of settled in and people in the dean’s office were on the whole, you know, pretty simpatico; I think it -- but she was very unsure of herself um outside and then eventually I think she felt quite comfortable.  What happened ultimately was that after I left, a year or so after that she had a stroke and um was never really able to get -- come back up to the job full-time and then eventually left it.  And then I lost track -- I kept in close touch with her for a few years and then I lost track of her and then somebody told me she died.  So... um but anyway --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWere her problems because she was a woman or because she was black or because she was black and a woman?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBoth.  Yeah.  Um I think at the beginning she probably felt more that it was because she was black um but once, once she came to Yale -- because I think that would be -- that would have been the problem she had encountered before she came to Yale, right, that she was black.  (laughter) Um once she came to Yale, within a year or so, she realized the problems were as much that uh she was female as that she was black.  Yeah, you were equally discriminated against.  Um but um anyway we were going back to the Saybrook period --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd the students -- yeah, no sexual harassment wasn’t something that um... came up.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tHow did you get along with the fellows?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tProbably that -- I mean, I didn’t have that much to do with them -- you know they had fellows meetings; I just tended not to have lunch um in the college um and that’s where one they -- you would get to talk to them.  Um... I became a good friend of Martin Griffin who had been dean before me and who had moved into the dean’s office -- the Yale College dean’s office but was still living in college and Martin was very helpful either on the phone or, you know, I -- kind of when he came back in the evening I would talk to him.  Um now see having -- in that way being Sid’s wife was very helpful --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tRight, because I would know all these people \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=5100.0,5400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"whereas if I’d come in from outside -- if I’d been like Bobbie Hill, it would have been much more difficult.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tRight.  I mean, you know, she and Martin became good friends because they were in the um Yale College dean’s office together but it took her a while because Martin had this kind of slightly stiff, slightly fey old Yale style and if you didn’t know him, you’d think, “Oh my God,” if you were from out of town.  Um and it was also true of, of I think the fellowship in general; Sid had been a fellow or was a fellow at Saybrook um -- when I was -- agreed to take the position we were still in Paris.  Duke Henning who was master and Alison, um they were -- happened to be in London for the year or semester and I flew over --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd um went to visit Duke and took them out to lunch or dinner or something like that and, and we talked and I’d know him -- they’re very, they were very old school -- I mean very, very old school -- they’d been, I think, um... I don’t know if, if either was southern but there was something southern about their style.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThere’s a sort of old Yale graciousness --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIsn’t there?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Alison was actually a character.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tShe died recently.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t know.  I think so.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tShe, she did; she died in the summer.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh-huh.  She was, she was very funny and, and irreverent actually.  But she was also kind of very old, you know, and, and once we were there for dinner -- this was before um -- and afterwards she took the ladies into different rooms so that the men could have their cigars or vice versa.  (laughter)  And she liked Sid a lot and Sid used to kid her and they -- I remember once she said something about well, we’ll go into the [library] and Sid said, oh don’t tell me you have books, Alison.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t(laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut you know, so... um so in that way my entry into that kind of system was, was um -- I didn’t ever have much to do with [the men].  Um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo that was -- that’s a really good example of how being a faculty wife could actually have been terribly helpful.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, it was.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBecause you, you, you had access to people in a way that maybe somebody from outside did not.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  That’s right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm yeah no socially and it, it’s make a difference, you know, because there are all these parties and stuff that, you know -- but actually I met a lot of people; I mean Sid’s circles were -- [if you go to] Saybrook, there’s anthropology, some social sciences but he tended not to have a lot of um acquaintances kind of across the university area um whereas I, I just met everybody from everywhere and that was -- I liked that when I was in the provost’s office.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI liked getting a sense of how the whole place worked.  Found that very interesting.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou said that you were um dean at Saybrook just for a year --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm was that because something else came up or you wanted a change?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah I was -- no, no I would have been happy to stay on.  Um the other thing I did that year that -- while I was dean was I was a member of the admissions committee and that is a fascinating experience.  Fascinating.  I did it for two years; I continued to do it after I was in the provost -- anyway so sometime in the spring of um that year, they offered me the position of the associate provost; I was quite taken aback um because I, because I indicated that I hadn’t been particularly involved in um women’s issues um, um... I think they were looking for somebody instead of Elga (sp?) -- Elga should have gotten the position uh because she was the most qualified and um, you know, she had had the experience; she had the kind of national whatever uh reputation and presence um -- um but you know, I think what had happened was because she was such a strong advocate for women; um she ruffled feathers.  Um and... I don’t -- I -- so it must have been Kingman who made the decision not to give her the job or, or -- with his advisors, whoever they were because I was going to say Charlie Taylor was leaving the position so whether he opposed or not -- and I think he probably opposed but I’m not -- I’m guessing -- um his opinion wouldn’t have counted for as much because he was leaving the position and Dick who could -- probably didn’t have an opinion um I would guess.  Um I might be wrong.  Um but anyway \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=5400.0,5700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so it was -- and it was uh Henry Browdey (sp?) who was often the communication uh channel um who, who I knew um and we knew Josie -- not well but we knew them socially [then].  Anyway Hen-Henry was the one -- we, we had a number of long talks about it and I asked um, he asked about Elga (sp?) and I got, you know, some sort of diplomatic -- um but it was clear that it was -- that was not a possibility um -- I was trying to think whether I actually talked to Elga (sp?) beforehand or not; I don’t know.  Um I can’t remember but somehow it occurs to me that I may have called her.  I don’t remember um and I don’t remember how long it took me to decide --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tHow was the job pitched to you?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) I don’t remember very well.  I mean I [found] that I, I would be -- you know I didn’t know a whole lot about kind of executive order of 11-246 or whatever it was um... that, you know, Yale wanted to kind of im-im -- establish a program to increase the number of minority and women faculty but also there was the whole university program, I mean that was -- and um they wanted somebody to head that effort.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI, I just don’t remember -- \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know whatever I’m, I’m kind of reconstructing from what I must have been --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tShould we take a quick break there --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tJust for a bit.  (break in audio) Yeah, it’s recording.  Okay --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tDon’t, don’t -- later on, I’m talking about minority women for a little bit more -- um we did found -- find -- organize; I’ll get the right verb eventually -- um... a group called the New England Minority Women Administrators --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm Bobbie and I did this.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah um but that was, you know, kind of for administrators and stuff.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, I, I actually -- when we come to the provost’s office that was one of the questions --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOkay.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI wanted to ask you about because you had mentioned that to me.  Um... just one or two other little things about ah your, your time at Saybrook -- there was an interview that you gave to an, an undergraduate for, for a senior essay or something like that um and there was a story in that; it would be great to hear it from you as it were from the horse’s mouth rather than this report.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah I had forgotten about it until you sent me that um, that essay.  Um... I don’t know how I discovered it but I discovered that I was not getting cleaning help um you know to do the bathroom, the kitchen and whatever and um the male fellows were and so I, I asked why wasn’t I getting [it] and they said well because you’re married.  (laughter) And so clearly the presumption was if you were a man and you were married, you didn’t need a, you know, a cleaning service because your wife would clean for you and straighten up.  And I said well, but I don’t have a wife to clean -- and people were befuddled by that; they -- some of them were slightly irritated that I would bring it up but others, once they got over their initial irritation, um could see that it was not quite far so they eventually got me um somebody to come clean, you know, the bathrooms and stuff.  But I, I remember thinking that it was so obvious that um it was, you know, one-sided that, that the, the man needed cleaning help but a woman didn’t um and a man didn’t need it if he was married because then she would cleaning.  It was so blatant and I, I couldn’t understand why people didn’t see it right away so there was a little bit of outrage when I found myself having to explain to people what was going on.  (laughter)  But it was also kind of amusing because it was so [mean].\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Do you think there were any advantages um in being a woman doing the job of dean?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell I think again going back to that black student problem um, I, I think I may have had certain advantages dealing with them because -- both because they probably didn’t feel they had to deal with me in such a macho way as they would have to deal with a male administrator um but also I didn’t feel I had to deal \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=5700.0,6000.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"with them in a macho way.  Um I remember talking to John Wilkinson and people like that and they kept saying -- they, they kept saying well it was amazing I could figure this out or understand this and so forth (inaudible) you know, I don’t have the hang-ups you guys have.  I don’t feel like I -- I’d said they’re just kids and you didn’t understand that that’s what they were and um, you know, even, even if they’re black um and it’s not because I’m particularly motherly; it’s just that I, I can’t -- I couldn’t take seriously the posings of young men.  (laughter)  Right.  Um so I think to that extent I probably have an advantage um both -- going both directions.  As far as other um -- dealing with the other students I don’t know; they, they -- I, I tend to be fairly approachable um and -- but I’m not sure whether that’s because I’m female or not.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think people differ that way.  Um... but yeah, no I, I don’t think I had any advantages particularly as a female working with students or that I know of disadvantages.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know, as I say, you know, people ah tend to be polite so if they have certain objections they, they knew that they shouldn’t say them.  And that’s okay with me.  (laughter)\r\n(pause)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhen um when you were uh in the deanship do you remember any of your undergraduates being involved in any kind of fledging women’s groups that were beginning to be formed around Yale?  I mean there were -- there was one called the Yale Sisterhood that I know of for certain --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd there were one or two others --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm and some of them were, I think, affiliated with, with, with the times so they were -- um but others were, were, were Yale groups.  You weren’t aware of any of those?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI -- no, I am -- you know -- no, I was not aware of any um -- I suppose any of the female students in Saybrook could have belonged but if so I didn’t know [what] um... I think -- you know, I have a feeling that was a fairly small percentage of the undergraduate female body; I don’t know how big the Sisterhood ever got.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI have no idea what size --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut yes I can’t imagine it would have been very, very big.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThere were um -- I’m trying to think if anybody was particularly feminist at all -- not particularly.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBecause it -- you’re around 1970, ’71 --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt would have been definitely women’s lib at that point, wouldn’t it.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right.  Yeah.  Well and you know these are students -- at that age they were doing all sorts of things trying to get it [along], get through college -- a lot of them liked what they were studying.  Um there were a couple who were, you know, kind of budding artists, I remember.  Um... yeah, I don’t, I don’t recall any of them being um involved that I know.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDo you think um the women undergraduates were under uh greater pressure either to be super bright um... or um -- or to be very feminine and that the two things are often mutually -- regarded as mutually exclusive categories?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t think -- I don’t -- I’m trying to remember the, the students who were in Saybrook -- the female students and I knew some of them better than others; there weren’t a whole lot I remember.  I don’t recall uh almost any of them being particularly feminine --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI mean, they weren’t, you know, masculine but they weren’t -- there were a couple of female students who were kind of troubled in various ways; I remember there was one who after talking to her I felt like I was -- been in a hall of mirrors, you know; it was really hard to know what was going on in her mind.  Um... I can’t think of um -- they, they were kind of serious students who were doing their student thing um yeah -- I can’t -- I’m sure there was tremendous pressure.  We just -- you know the hoopla that surrounded their coming -- um by the time I was in Saybrook, the student -- the first class of women students who went through all four years was the class of ’73 so they would have been juniors \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=6000.0,6300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that year, I’m pretty sure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Um and I think they had managed to survive their first two years and so they were kind of more -- probably more settled down --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSettled in, I guess.  Um... yeah, no I can’t think of, you know, particular -- there, there may have been but it’s funny; I can’t think of any um incidents or conversations where I ended up thinking that, you know, the girls were under more pressure.  I think there may have been some conversations where there was kind of an acknowledgement that it wasn’t easy --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tTo be a, a Yale woman but it was -- it’s different from kind of specific --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm incidents or feelings.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd you were on the admissions committee, weren’t you?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm when did you, when did you go onto the admissions committee?  Can you remember?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat year --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhen I, I was at Saybrook.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd um did you -- do you have recollections of what high different -- the applications for women -- from women -- were to, to men?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know, I don’t particularly.  We’re think -- concentrating -- Bobbie Hill was also on it -- and it took a tremendous amount of time; I mean, you had to read hundreds and hundreds of applications and, and then we met intermittably (sp?).  It was very interesting, it was very interesting.  Um and I continued it the following year although I couldn’t spend as much time on it as I um did the first year.  We were... focusing on class and minority status uh because I thought it was equally important to get people of, you know, less-privileged background.  Um I remember the admissions staff; they, they had -- they were beginning to understand or they understood already that there was a difference between somebody who came from a family with college degrees and somebody who came from a family where the parents didn’t have college -- and they turned it into [col-non-col] right?  \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd -- but they applied it in this kind of um simple-minded way, you know, so that here would be the son of a Venezuelan general (laughter) and it’s true that he didn’t go to college and neither did his wife but they were clearly, you know -- ah there was clearly a background of considerable privilege and they said, oh well, but he’s not in [col] and we said, [mmm] you don’t understand; that’s an abbreviation but it shouldn’t be taken so literally.  Um... but I don’t remember the women as a separate category, it was very -- maybe if I thought hard about it but I don’t... I think we were pushing for more women but I don’t remember them being treated particularly differently.  Um one of the things that I became of -- more aware of later on was how letters of recommendation tended to um focus on different features for female applicants -- \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell the way girls or females are described um what may be considered a... good character trait um you wouldn’t use the same adjectives to describe a man -- I mean, I remember somebody being described as, you know, pert.  (laughter) You don’t describe a man -- pert meant being alert, right, (laughter) but you wouldn’t use that so there was that kind of discrimination but we didn’t ever do anything systematic [like that.]  Um but I’m, I’m afraid I’m not coming up with anything on um the female applicant -- applicants in the admissions process.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you um -- when you’re working in admission -- on the admissions committee, did you -- were there other -- were there faculty women on the committee as well?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI’m trying to think who else was on the committee; there were faculty on the committee, obviously.  Um there were so few faculty women um... I’m have a hard time remembering who was on the committee; you know there was the admissions staff itself which included um a Chicana -- [Consuela Guytana] -- I don’t know if you’ve run into her (inaudible) --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo, I haven’t.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tShe was, I think, the first -- well Glen DeShabara (sp?) was \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=6300.0,6600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"working there um on the admissions staff; I don’t whether he -- I think he was, you know, dragging out finishing his bachelor’s degree in -- and because he was smart and articulate and so forth, people would hire him for various things; that was one of the problems that some of those undergraduates had was so easy for them not to finish their senior thesis because they would be, you know, offered interesting lucrative positions on the uh campus and uh that was the way in which they were uh being... taken advantage of, if you will.  But uh Glen was there um and so he would kind of be the -- one of the advocates for the minority applicants and [Consuela] was the appli -- advocate for Chicanos but and she was relatively -- I mean she did her job, but she wasn’t, you know... she was definitely Chicana but I don’t think she was very ideological, okay.  Um and I think she was okay on women but she wasn’t, you know, she didn’t feel very strongly about that but I cannot think of a single woman faculty member -- I’m sure somebody like Marge Garber (sp?) must have been dragooned out of -- but whether -- you know a lot of the faculty couldn’t attend very often because there was so much else they had to do, you know.  And um...  I mean it was very intense for about a month; that’s a long time to drop everything else.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm at this point I can’t think of anybody else because a lot of the, the faculty that I knew were not appointed until the following year... in ’70 -- in ’71, ’72, there just were very few -- even fewer.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Yes because it wasn’t really noticeable until the mid-seventies that there had been --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tA growth in the number of women, yeah.  Um before we, before we switched off the machine and had our break, we were, we were just beginning to talk about you coming into the provost’s office --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd talking about ah how Henry Browdey (sp?) had approached you for the job.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou asked me what -- how the job had been pitched.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tPitched.  That’s right.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t recall very well, I’m afraid.  Um... I think one of the things that occurred to me after, you know, we had that little exchange was that I thought, well, you know, if I can do that so it wasn’t full-time, I could still somehow stay at Saybrook; I wanted to stay in that job um and -- but the more I looked at what was involved, the more I thought I better not try that.  I think they would have been perfectly willing for me to do that because in, in a sense they... I think they thought it could be done not full-time too um but anyway um that’s all I can think of at that, that point.  Why did I take the job?  It sounded interesting um and challenging and... um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd was it a completely new position in the, in the, in the provost’s office?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  It was, it was.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBecause certainly I know that -- was it the Green committee had report -- one of the recommendations was that there should be um somebody in charge of, of women at um associate provost level?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think what they wanted and I didn’t read -- I didn’t pay that much attention to any of that stuff; if I read the Green report before -- I hadn’t studied it um so but in -- I think what I discovered afterwards um was that they had wanted a, a senior appointment in the provost’s office; they also wanted an affirmative action officer and I think in a Yale world, they thought that it be -- should be two people.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm and I think the administration decided one person would do -- combine the two and the -- I think the intent and hope was that that person once, you know, um she had gotten um the program underway, you know set up, could also do other things in the provost’s office because I mean that would be beneficial for everybody concerned --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAt least in theory.  Um... so um what was your question again?  Whether --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWas it, was, was, was the job um a direct outcome of the, of the Green report or was it because um because of the Hugh regulations that it was then clear that there was a need for somebody to take charge of affirmative action at Yale?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t really know.  I’m assuming it was a combination of the two.  I think um -- I don’t know -- I think without the government at least, you know, on paper having requirements \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=6600.0,6900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"; it’s so hard to know when Yale would have reacted.  You know they always say they’d want to do these things independent or (inaudible) in government -- obligations and requirements but um I, I think in practical terms, you know, you put things off (laughter) if you don’t have to do them.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  So when you got into the provost’s office what did you -- well first of all it would be a good idea to get a sense of what your -- what the job description was, if you, if you were given one -- and then when you got into the -- in, in, into post what uh how did you assess the situation of what you’d have to do and what plan of action you were going to have to take to be able to make a job effective?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, yeah, I don’t know if I got a quote job description.  Um Yale was very... um -- the system of, of jobs at Yale was very unstructured and kind of informal so I, I don’t know if a job description ever existed.  Um one of the things I ultimately ended up spending some time on when I was in the provost’s office was working with the personnel office to try to develop job descriptions, not necessarily for faculty, but, you know, there are lots of professional people on campus and managerial -- and they would get hired and they wouldn’t know, you know, what they were supposed to do and so forth and, and their salaries were set kind of willy-nilly.  Um so I don’t know if I had a job description given to me; um I, I knew that um I was supposed to be developing some sort of plan um of -- not only a plan that would be on paper um and also something to submit to HEW but also kind of putting into place the kind of hiring appointments process that um had been suggested, at least in, in outline by the Green committee and, and um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tPeters.  Yes, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah and was it the Peters --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tPeters committee -- it was the -- it was later the same year, late ’71 I think --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWas it?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI don’t think it reported.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I don’t remember.  Um and um I, I’m trying to think... I spent time trying to um -- there was a lot of information to kind of get under my belt, put my arms around um about the various departments and so forth and to, to try to figure out how to... I mean there were all these descriptions about how I should meet with department chairmen and try to find out, you know, how they were going to try to -- to, to talk to them about the need to increase the number of women; get their input on how they were going to do it and so on and so forth.  Um... but I -- we also needed to get information on, you know, what the pool was like for the various uh fields.  Um and so I, I spent a lot of time I guess doing that, meeting with chairmen -- mostly, you know, I think I focused on arts and sciences initially.  Um and just trying to get a sense of what each field was like and what the particular problems were and what they were going to do and it was probably just a matter of establishing relationships with [these] because that’s -- they were the ones who were going to do the hiring; I mean that was clear.  And then the other thing that um we spent a lot of time on, at least in-in the first year, anyway, was the whole argument about the goals and timetables --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah because that uh -- looking at the, looking at the records, that is the thing that comes up again and again and again; everybody seemed to have had a parti-particular view of it --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat um that somehow it was going to be... translated into numbers.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Yeah.  Yeah and I, I was -- I fell in the camp that felt strongly that we should goals and timetables and said that, you know, this was -- it was all so malleable; it was easy to um lose track of where we were going unless we knew where, where we wanted to go and how we were going to get there -- um what, what our ultimate destination was um and numbers, it seemed to me, was a, a, a good way to measure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, did you, did you feel it with numbers that uh it would be much more difficult to put off um if you don’t have specific goals um in place then it’s much more difficult maybe to galvanize uh the departments --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThe departments.  You know, I just think if you want to achieve something; if you have a number or a specific thing that you’re aiming at um \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=6900.0,7200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":", it’s just easier.  You don’t have to think about how you’re doing all the time; you know how you’re doing and so you can put your effort into um achieving the goal rather than um all the ways in which you might think about achieving the goal.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhy do you think it caused such um -- such a lot of difficulty, that notion?  Because clearly in the records there are lots of memos and discussion with the corporation and notes from Kingman Brewster himself and um and individual faculty members who are clearly expressing concerns that goals might be imposed on Yale as a result of the HEW regulations.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  I... I can’t really get into the minds of all these people.  Um I know that um -- I mean Brewster had expressed his concern about government interference in university affairs I think even before this came up and I think it was part of his general um feeling about resisting government intrusion um -- and you know, and he had the argument that uh because somebody sold your buttons, they didn’t have the right to determine the cut of the suit.  Um... you know, my -- my reaction to that was um he, he could return the buttons.  (laughter)  But also I mean I, I thought that it -- for him it was the, the kind of the principle of government versus private university relations.  Um, I think that’s mostly what -- but it seemed to me to take a stand on goals and timetables, kind of undermine -- it, it was so symbolic it would send such a terrible negative signal to, you know, the public at large, whatever that means.  For Yale to be um one of the holdouts on something -- and it, it also made Yale look particularly elite and, and, and the, the feeling that it should be excluded from the requirements that all other employers um were subject to um... but I think that for all of his venting -- and he did vent -- and so did -- I mean he was venting against members of the corporation and they were -- because they -- some of them -- many of them felt very strongly that Yale should not take ah public positioning against goals and timetables.  Um I think because he was a very practical person, um he wouldn’t have gone done over goals and timetables -- you know, he would have pushed very hard but I think um -- I think he saw, you know, there were lots of um goals that the university had in general and it shouldn’t... the mission shouldn’t founder over that.  Um, but then his new provost, Dick Cooper --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWas very adamantly against goals and timetables um and Dick did not waver and he was -- in that sense, he wasn’t a practical politician; he was, you know, an academic economist.  Um and I think --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat was his objection?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t think he liked the idea of quotas.  You would talk and people did until they were blue in the face about how this was not a quota because he would say, well, you know, this is the quotas that kept Jews out, kept this -- and people would say this is not what we’re talking about and um, you know, and it, it, it’s not as if you’re saying you can’t have certain people -- that these are kind of aspirational numbers and, and if you make a good faith effort to try to reach them and you don’t reach them um and you can describe your effort and um nothing will happen to you, you know, but it’s just a useful tool.  He would not budge.  And, and I remember a couple of meetings where, I mean, he just -- both with the trustees and, and just with uh Brewster and, and me, maybe (inaudible) that I don’t remember -- but where he argued really, really strenuously against it and I -- Brewster was very happy to hear it I’m sure.  Um \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=7200.0,7500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"but I do think that if, if it hadn’t been for Dick Cooper, it might have been possible to move Brewster; I don’t know, that’s my hunch.  Um... but you were showing me some of this correspondence, some of which I’d seen and um I must say, you know, Brewster sound much more against -- emotionally -- than um somehow I recall.  Maybe he softened later on but at that time, yeah, he was definitely opposed and some of the trustees like Maryann Adelman (sp?) and, and uh Lance Leibman (sp?) were leading the charge in favor because they, they just thought it would be terrible um for Yale to take a public stance against it because it would undermine the program in all sorts of other ways.  Um, you know, nationally and they said well why should a steel company have to comply with the, the requirement for goals and timetables and not Yale University?  That sometimes did not go over so well.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOne of the main planks in the argument against goals of course was always the uh the meritocracy argument, wasn’t it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm that uh if you’re going to aspire to be one of the best, if not the best, university in the world than you can’t, you can’t allay that mission to be undermined, some might say, by, by --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tConsiderations of race and, and gender.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, that is one of the arguments.  Um I think the, the argument that was made, you know, to, to rebut that was that we’re educating students and we’re -- it’s not just meritocracy and research and so forth that matters; there are all sorts of other things that faculty members -- all sorts of other functions that faculty members serve um and among them are having role models, you know, that’s sort of argument.  But yeah, that’s the sort -- I think that’s one of the kinds of arguments that um the meritocracy one which would lead lots of faculty to their backs to stiffen.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou -- um you said that um uh Dick Cooper was somebody who came out very strenuously --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUh with a position.  Did you find, given that you -- he was your direct --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBoss.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMy boss, did that -- that must have made your job altogether more difficult?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell, you know, goals and timetables was a very important part of it but it wasn’t the only thing.  I mean the um -- so if, if we’re talking about other parts of the affirmative program, he didn’t give me a whole lot of help but he certainly didn’t get in my way. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWay.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tHe was brought in to try to straighten out the financial situation at Yale and that's what he concentrated on and he was really um ferocious in trying to keep the budget, you know, more or less balanced or the deficit down.  And, you know, he did that in the way that he tended to do things which was very directly without kind of favoring anybody um... I mean he denied his economics, you know, tenure position is the way he would deny them to anybody else.  Um and I think, you know, he was very even-handed that way.  But generally he didn’t get in my way and if we talked about getting extra money for -- he didn’t necessary turn that down; I don’t remember if we ever... got money -- I just don’t remember but that wasn’t excluded even though he was trying to um, you know, reduce the budget deficit.  Um so goals and timetables was very important but -- and this may be partly just in retrospect -- but there were so many other things to do besides getting that in; uh I may have wasted more time kind of on that fight than I might have in retrospect --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat you know -- uh at that time it seemed, you know, really all important.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWell I suppose it seemed almost like the, the kind of fundamental philosophical plank of it all, didn’t it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Sure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Um, what, what, what were the other aspects of the job?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell just getting people on board; getting them to kind of look at their faculty appointment procedures -- their recruiting procedures um -- making sure that when they were about to -- what we did was we set up -- first we just -- I’d just generally talk and Horace Taft was really helpful that way because he, he uh kind of worked with me very closely and again having him in on some of those meetings was really helpful because, you know, people thought highly of him.  Um I mean he’s one of the unsung heroes, I think, of Yale at that time.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally? \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=7500.0,7800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think he was just terrific.  Um he was just a very decent person who was very quiet and understated.  Anyway so we, we just met with people to find out what they thought they were going to do and so forth and then we started telling them what we thought they should do and this would take different meetings because, you know, if you kind of dump everything on somebody right at the beginning um it doesn’t always work so well.  So -- and then we got, you know, we’re collecting more data about the number of PhDs and one of the things... this was a Dick Cooper idea, actually.  We started collecting information from other universities about... I think their graduate production in terms of women and minorities and stuff.  And some people cooperated and other people wrote really horrible letters back and said, you know, is Yale succumbing to all this -- um, one of them was from a professor I’d had at, at Harvard; he was one of the worst.  (laughter)  Um but you know so Dick would kind of get involved in these kinds of ways -- it wasn’t particularly helpful but it was -- I mean, he was kind of interested, you know, and he was interested in data.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you have a uh range of uh responses from department chairs when you started to do the rounds?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Sure.  Some departments were defensive um and -- because they had already been accused, I think, by, you know, the Green report or women’s groups or something like that and correctly [self]; um they were defensive and they had been accused (inaudible).  Um so they would come in and say, well you know we really try and so on and so forth and I said well you have to try harder and it shows in the results; they said, oh yeah, well we’re thinking about this person and that person -- are they come around and said well you know that, that’s not going to work.  I mean they were dragging their -- tended to be in the humanities but not entirely.  Some of the, the um... I think the social sciences tended to be um... they tended to be better because they tended to be more objective about themselves and how they fit into a national system or, you know, a educational system.  So some of them maybe, you know, looked at the Green report and thought about what they might do and, and had some ideas -- economics was one of my favorites because um the chairman -- I don’t know about the rest of the department, I -- although I knew some of the people in the department and they, they were pretty imaginative about things but um he would come up with this idea or that idea about -- there weren’t very many women in economics but he, he would try to invite senior women to come and lecture in, in the hopes of kind of encouraging (laughter) his colleagues to be interested um and they did hire a couple of women even though their, their PhD percentages are real low.  Um I... you know one of the people I was talking about was Lucy Cardwell; she was one of the people who was hired, if not that year -- I think that year -- um, and I, I think she had problems but I don’t know that she had problems as a woman so much.  You know... I would have to ask her; I mean she was active in the women’s stuff and she, you know, knew that there was plenty of discrimination and so forth but I don’t think that her problem was the problem of, of uh her colleagues.  Um I think one of the problems that a lot of women had was that um they felt that they had to serve quote as double models; that can be pretty tiring um and sometimes some of them would end up having to -- you know being approached by more female students and that’s again time consuming.  That was much more the problem I think um for minority faculty but some of the female faculty as well.  Um back to who was helpful -- science is varied, I mean they -- some of whom were kind of hostile -- probably more were hostile than not; it’s, it’s partly a matter of the personality of the chair, you know.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  One of the people that’s been talked uh -- that people have said a lot of very um positive things about was um Joe Gall (sp?) in biology.  Um he, he was -- it was one of -- in um is it MBB?  Medical microbiology or something, I can’t -- cell, cell biology --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMolecular biology and physics or something like that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yeah, yeah.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=7800.0,8100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And cell biology -- um I mean he’s a very distinguished scientist and um but his, his lab had a very large number of women in it.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah but I -- isn’t he one of the people who have a large number of women in it but didn’t, didn’t do anything about getting them appointed?  You know you’re going to have to ask Mary Clutter (sp?) and people like that.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWait -- yeah, yeah.  I -- certainly I’ve, I’ve talked to several of his women who were his students uh and then were uh assistant professors in the department and they, they’d said that he was incredibly encouraging to women --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh okay.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo um --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI didn’t hear that at the time.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat I -- that I recall.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm I talked to uh the chairman a fair amount and um he was very involved in that because his wife, Maryellen, Mary Helen or whatever, um was a senior biologist and research -- senior research associate -- and he knew that people -- that, that there was her and there was a Winifred something-or-another and Mary Clutter (sp?), all of whom um seemed to me should have gotten tenure and been put on the ladder of faculty.  Two of them were married to members of the department including Tim’s wife and Mary Clutter (sp?) and um then the other one wasn’t and ultimately there were some people in the department who were very uh resistant to kind of doing anything to, what I call, uh rectify the situation by either putting them on the la -- the question was where would you put them on the ladder of faculty; you couldn’t put them on as assistant professors -- that was for (inaudible); if you put them on as associates, would they have tenure?  I mean, you know, even if you made -- I don’t know.  Anyway -- but there were some people in the department who were very against and remember going to talk to one of them who had a, I thought, good political reputation um and we had a long talk about various things and one of the -- Winifred Donne (sp?) was one of the people whose situation, I thought, was somewhat different because it didn’t matter a whole lot whether she stayed at Yale because she wasn’t married -- I can’t remember what her husband did but she wasn’t tied to Yale or -- and so I can’t -- I don’t remember the details of the -- and, and I, I approached her with some trepidation because I didn’t like the idea of the compromise; it seemed to me she should get a tenure position in the department but that was clearly not going to happen because I’d talked to enough people in the department and this was probably my -- by then it was my second or third year; it wasn’t the first year -- I don’t think I would have come to that conclusion the first year but um... we worked out something so that either she got something without tenure, which was probably not what she deserved but it would make her marketable -- whatever it was it would make it more likely that she could get a reasonable job somewhere else and she agreed to that.  But for me, personally that was a big breakthrough because it was the first time I, I kind of advised a compromise um and I thought, gee, this is sacrificing principle, right, but on the other hand, might end up -- she might end up with a better deal and I was surprised -- \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd also set a precedent. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  I don’t remember that but um -- that part of it.  I, I really didn’t like the idea of uh, I don’t know, um -- and you know, one has to compromise on all sorts of stuff but this seemed like a big one but she took it and I think it worked out well.  Um the others, I don’t think we ever worked out a -- and Mary Clutter ended up leaving; I don’t remember exactly when but she went to something else in Washington, I think.  Um... and I don’t know; do you know what happened to Maryellen or Mary Helen?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI have no -- I should know but I just can’t remember what happened.  I think she went to a tenured position somewhere else --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(inaudible)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut I, I, I’m, I, I couldn’t, I couldn’t swear to it.  I’d have to check back again -- I, I certainly didn’t know -- have the information at one time but I can’t remember it.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Plus I -- you know, the, the thing is that there was this feeling, and I felt it too, that these people should have gotten tenure -- been on the ladder faculty and probably gotten tenure by then and that’s what the focus was on.  In fact I think it would have been more practical to think about bigger \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=8100.0,8400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"-- a bigger range of possibilities.  Um but so I, I think in the case of Winifred Donne (sp?) I think was her last name -- I was beginning to kind of open that range of possibility.  Um... you know I, I suspect that’s still a problem for spouses in New Haven because I mean one of the problems for both -- two of those women was that they were tied to New Haven.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Captive wives, I think they were called.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  You know the, the problem is perception to a certain extent that if you’re there because your spouse is there um -- and your value goes down in people’s minds I think sometimes unconsciously um because I’ve seen it happen to men; if they follow their wives somewhere -- their wife has a job -- I, I know a couple of people that, you know, came to New -- uh Baltimore because their wives got jobs at Hopkins.  I think if they hadn’t been here as spouses, the chances of their getting a job at Hopkins would have been higher but it's kind of like, well, we can always get into teachers and I think there was... the women situation was made more complicated by the fact that there were wives and wives are always inferior to husbands and so forth but there’s -- some of just being a, a captive spouse --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tA [noose].  Yeah, yes.  And, and also this certainly -- there was um what used to be called the nepotism rules --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMmm.  The anti-nepotism rules.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm and I’ve had different views on whether they actually were written down -- existed in that way but certainly they existed in people’s minds.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell it’s in that pile of papers you brought --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUgh the --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThe changing it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWe took it out of the faculty (inaudible) or modified it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, yeah.  Yes and it was -- I read elsewhere, I think the uh the first HEW uh report that it was put in, in ’73, which of course you would have done, as one of the one’s that goals achieved was the removal of the nepotism rules from the handbook. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  You know the thing is that nobody read the faculty handbook that I know.  (laughter)  So that’s why people wouldn’t know (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, well you see I -- it’s [interesting] because I, I, I did early on the research all the literature, not just in Yale, but everywhere I would say there’s always nepotism rules and of course in the state system, they may well have been much more specific.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm but that the -- so everybody bandied about the, the nepotism rules and how iniquitous they were but I -- so I started to ask people, yeah, well, you know, can you remember where they were ever written down?  Nobody ever could (laughter) so it was always because nobody read the handbook. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know I don’t think I ever saw a copy until I went into the provost’s office.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  And I, I think I asked Sid and I don’t think he ever saw one; now he -- he’s not good at, you know, reading that kind of stuff as it comes through but um yeah there was one -- I, I suppose it serves some purpose but --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, and certainly, you know, it was, it was I think... used as a reason not to employ (inaudible) --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah wives.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes and it, it was usually wives rather than men and of course nowadays um... this idea of the captive wife or captive spouse, I should say, uh it does show that that it’s really important to negotiate your package very early on before you come.  (laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAbsolutely.  So the --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhich of course one can do nowadays.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s very interested -- recently Sid got a letter from a colleague in one of the New York schools asking about a particular applicant and who is married to a very good friend of ours.  She is the applicant; he is the very good friend and she’s become a good friend too but he’s an old, old friend and um so Sid wrote, you know, back about her and then she -- the person at -- in New York said, and I suppose her spouse comes with her.  And Sid wrote back and said, no, actually not; he just retired.  But you know, I mean, there’s this assumption that there’s a spouse that might have to be dealt with --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Yes.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWhereas before it was kind of (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  One of the things that um comes up in the literature all the time and I think to some extent also came up at Yale was that we can’t possibly um hire more women -- and by extension I, I, I include minorities in this -- because there \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=8400.0,8700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"just simply aren’t enough people in the pipeline to do this.  Was that something that you encountered in your job?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, sure.  I mean that was obviously an argument that wouldn’t work in many fields in arts and sciences because there were so many women um and I don’t even remember at this point because the arguments that -- for example the French department -- would give me about why they hadn’t hired more women because they didn’t really have much of an excuse except that Yale didn’t hire women.  I mean, you know, so (inaudible).  But in other departments, sure in engineering, um physics, um... a lot of the sciences -- not biology but there was MB\u0026B and molecular biology and biochemistry.  That wasn’t um uh forestry, I remember -- although the, the dean there was pretty good and I think he was going to try.  Um... you know law -- it was the percentage was pretty low; medicine -- in those days it was low.  Um... the argument came out particularly of course with minority hires.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Because their percentages really were low and my impression is remain low, right.  Um... so the, the numbers thing, you know, from targets and goals that would work particularly well for those where there had been a, a fairly large number of percentage of women getting degrees over the last ten, twenty years before that -- I don’t mean from now but... in the fifties and sixties.  Um... goals and timetables, aside from, you know, kind of giving somebody something to strive for, um wouldn’t work in quite the same kind of like automatic way that they would in, in the humanities -- in um mathematics or engineering.  Um and it didn’t work at all for uh minorities.  If it’s -- if one percent of the PhD um you know are two members of minority groups, what kind of goal do you set?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  (pause)  What, for you, were the, the um the main frustrations of the job?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) What were the main frustrations?  I really wish I had that letter because at this point it’s so hard to remember what the main frustrations were --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThis was the letter you to --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tKingman Brewster, yeah when I think is -- a letter that I wrote kind of before I decided to leave but I was kind of on the verge but it was kind of expressing -- I maybe -- I may have already decided to leave, I don’t know -- but anyway it summarized a lot of my concerns, I think.  Um it was partly kind of to start at one end of the spectrum because four years is a long time to spend trying to sell a program that is inherently not that pro -- popular.  I’m not a good salesperson.  Um and some people don’t mind kind of making a pitch over and over again and I do -- you know, after a while I think, yeah, why don’t they get it?  (laughter)  Um so that -- it’s partly that and, and... being frustrated by the slowness of uh progress in improvements in the hiring record um... and having done it so long um -- I think I was... I could feel myself becoming less effective because um when one is full of frustration and, and kind of -- not boredom -- but kind of feeling that you’ve done it over and over again -- um you just can’t bring to it the same kind of energy that I, I thought the program still needed; there were other things that I remember -- and at this point I don’t remember the spe-specifics -- but one of the people who was being considered for my um successor for you know -- if not exact (inaudible) but somebody in the provost’s office was a woman named Ellen Ryerson (sp?), do you know [her name]?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tEllen was terrific.  She was in law school -- she’d been a historian, then she came back; took a year at law and then she was named assistant dean.  Um anyway I, I uh had a long conversation with her -- I remember [what it was] -- I had already moved out of our house and I was living with Bobbie Hill and Sid had left and um I remember because I was in a kind half-empty room talking to her um and I told her about all the things I thought that still could be done and that should be done, and at the end of which, she said she’d talk to Ellen with whom she was very close -- Ellen Peters -- and um that she said \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=8700.0,9000.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ellen had been more discouraging um and discouraged and ah I said, well you know I [personally am] discouraged but I think somebody else can do all these things and she said, well you almost sold me but not quite; (inaudible) she didn’t -- she just -- she took the job ultimately but doing something else, I think.  Um yeah so I did feel that there were all these things and I just didn’t want to do it anymore; I didn’t feel like I had the energy to lift.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhy did it seem to take so long to, to get the traction?  To get it moving --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMoving --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAs fast as you, I daresay, wanted and, and maybe quite a lot of faculty too?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm we weren’t making that many -- the, the problem was senior hires, right.  Junior hires um -- they were fairly substantial, practically from the beginning; I think, you know, in the... I don’t remember when it was because it doesn’t make sense but early on, you know, there were 20 percent, 30 percent of the new hires were female; well that’s pretty good but they were all junior, or I think almost all junior.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tCertainly not the people [worn out] by the, by the figures that I’ve got.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  So a lot of the, the assistant professors and -- um anyway um... so that for, for appointments that kind of had to be made on a yearly basis, you know, and [at least] a lot of the departments were hiring women at, you know, a pretty good clip.  Um of course the question was whether (inaudible) but there, there weren’t very many senior hires at all; I mean the financial situation at Yale wasn’t very good and um it was -- I don’t know that any senior people got hired -- not in, in -- I’m trying to think in arts and sciences -- very few in that four -- whole four years and that was really frustrating.  You know, I should -- I, if I -- I wish I could remember --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tHmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWho might have been hired, who was [there].\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, you see I’m trying to think back the lists that I’ve seen and, and I think you’re right.  There were almost no senior women hi-hired in that period.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, now I don’t remember, you know -- what’s important is to know how many men were hired at all.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMmm.  Yeah, and I don’t know at all about that, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah so that -- I mean it would have been frustrated if none -- if, if there would have been no hires at all male or female so, you know, but it would be less frustrating um or less galling, if you will, if there had been a lot of senior male appointments and I just don’t think there were.  There were some; I know there were some. (pause) Huh, I just don’t remember and I don’t remember that there were any in the medical school or the law school um... yeah, I just -- I don’t remember.  But it was -- even if there were some overall, there were essentially none.  Um and that was really frustrating and I didn’t see how -- you know the, the um -- I didn’t see how that was going to change and I also --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI mean someone’s [thought] was to do surely with, with the nature of the Yale tenuring -- ten-tenuring (sp?) process anyway.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, they, they -- a lot of the new hires, to the extent -- the senior hires -- if it... to the extent they were any worked from outside.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think the project that nobody was getting ah --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAppointments from within.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Certainly the -- you know my understanding was that most came from outside.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm... because the criteria were set in such a way that that always was necessary.  Um --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSee it’s hard to know how much of that -- I mean the way the criteria or set-up -- first of all, if you write the specializations a certain way, you exclude everybody except the person you want but also if -- I think in the old days people didn’t have to be superstars to get tenure.  At least from within, you know, and, and even -- I mean I just had that sense and that I can’t tell you, you know, um but just wasn’t so rigorous, [right].  And so -- and then once affirmative action came along and they had to kind of make their process more explicit then all of a sudden, I mean, they set the standard [in] impossibly high for the senior appointments.  Now that was partly in reaction to the fact that there were fewer senior appointments and as I said, you know, Cooper was denying pro-promotures -- promotions to tenure right and left.  I know it happened in Sid’s department; I remember it happened in, in the history a couple of times \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=9000.0,9300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"-- the historians were really upset that some of their very good young assistant or associate professors were not going to get tenure.  Um so it’s partly the, the fact that I think the whole um appointments picture was changing from the sixties... where there was more money.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm so whether or not women had come along or not there would have been a tightening.  But also because of the financial um (pause) the situation, I think they were tightening so the combination, I think, made it, you know --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo in some ways affirmative action was bad timing.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tTerrible timing; very -- you know things like that always (inaudible).  (laughter)  Yeah --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI mean if it happened... I don’t know in ’65 --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I mean I think that a lot more women would have been appointed, you know, but um... um I think -- yeah, just, you know the way everybody has to work much harder now generally, I think -- and, and people work hard -- more hours; I think some of it at some levels had to do with the fact that they kept ratcheting up the standards kind of to show that, you know, well it would be difficult to get into our club and I’m not talk -- just talking about Yale or [academe] -- um, and you know, the kind of well women can’t work 60 hours a week, you know, in, in law firms and stuff like that.  Well it turns out women could, you know, but um I, I do think there was a kind of competition to show how, how exclusive a club you belonged in.  And then of course I think once women went into the labor force in large numbers um... everybody ended up working more hours; I don’t, I don’t know to explain that.  I remember once um talking to a group of female economists -- there was a couple of graduate students and I think maybe Lucy and a couple of others they were -- had some sort of a -- it was almost like a present; they were having a little club of, of um economic [workshop] and there were -- a couple of them were talking about how if um it would be economically better if both husband and wife worked because um... it would -- there would be more economic security here if one laid off the other and I said, yeah but (laughter) if you’re depending on the income from both, then if one gets laid off, you have half an income.  I said I didn’t see how, you know, you could make that argument; there were lots of reasons for why women um should go into the labor force but that wasn’t economic security and I haven’t worked it out in my head entirely but it has -- the, the fact that Americans work more than anybody else somehow is related to women going into the workforce.  (laughter)  But it, it... yeah, well I’ll work it out (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, well yeah, it’s an interesting theory.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI think the fact that people work harder in academia is related to that --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat, that it -- that they had to kind of um... demonstrate that they, they were as, kind of, super um bright and super overachieving as they said they were.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah and certainly I think um, um that uh women felt that they had to work harder than men simply to show to everybody that they were at least their equal.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm and they turned out that they were working harder.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd also I think -- \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut I think the men ended up working harder.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes, so it, so it has a kind of --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYes, yeah.  Ratchets.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt has -- yes, yes, yeah -- it ups the ante all the time --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDoesn’t it for everyone eventually.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt was a kind of competitiveness, yeah.  And it -- that, that doesn’t really work for the rest of the workforce but I, I, I have -- I’m sure I’m onto something.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.  What was your relationship with HEW?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMy relationship with HEW -- the, the feared fearsome HEW um that everybody thought was going to come in and close the university down because we didn’t have goals and timetables or we didn’t meet them.  Um I made an appointment to go up to um Boston to meet with them \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=9300.0,9600.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"and I took with me -- there was a guy in the provost’s office -- um an economics graduate student -- who had been kind of doing research with Dick Cooper that -- who Dick hired to do various kind of research jobs and, and Bob um -- and I became very close friends and he was very helpful about a lot of stuff -- so um one of the things he did was collect data about, you know, women PhDs and minority PhDs and he would run all these statistical things that I don’t know how to do and, and um then I also took people from personnel who did wage and salary classifications and all of that, I thought, was really important because um we had to know what we had before we could say what we were (laughter) -- might need to do and what we, we were going to do aside from goals and timetables.  So we went up there and um I met with a couple of guys there and it -- ultimately I met with their boss -- and um they were very pleased with the information I presented to them and they, they were very interested and they were kind of overwhelmed because some of -- especially one of the guys from personnel who loved to explain all of his classifications and salary studies and so forth -- and I think they, they thought he gave them more than (laughter) they needed but ah Bill was terrific -- [this guy was].  Um and then at the end of which they were kind of saying, well, you know, you look like you’re in good shape and I said, you know, but we’re not doing goals and timetables.  Um and they said, oh, and I said, I don’t think we’re going to, you know, or we may not -- Yale may not uh do goals.  And they didn’t seem to be bothered by it; I was so upset.  (laughter)  I was so upset and I -- so when their boss came in I kind of went through the same drill and I said, you know, I, I’m not sure we’re going to be able to do um numerical targets and timetables and we have certain problems with them and, and uh he says, that’s okay -- something to that effect.  Um I mean he was, you know, not quite as blithe as that but he essentially said that wouldn’t pose a [insurpable (sp?)] problem -- obstacle.  Um... I don’t -- I didn’t report that back to the people at Yale.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou didn’t.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI did not.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI wonder why.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause in fact -- I mean the answer wasn’t that the -- it was okay; the answer was well, you know, um that wasn’t the end all and be all.  Um... so I, I came back and I said, well they were pleased with our numbers and so on and so forth; they want to see more and, you know, blah, blah and then eventually the, the um the head of the office came in to -- and um he was a wimp (laughter) when he came down as well.  I remember Dick Cooper came in to talk to him and um I could tell Dick was not impressed by him but um, um -- and Dick said, well, you know, we’re not going to do goals and timetables and the man said essentially well that wouldn’t be the end of the day or -- and, and I -- the look on Dick’s face, I remember thinking, oh my, you know, and, and once it was clear at HEW wasn’t going to insist on them -- at least not this particular guy; he was the regional director -- um we could fight all we wanted internally but I didn’t -- I, I think the, the argument about goals and timetables didn’t continue much past that first year; maybe it did but I don’t recall that it did.  So um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you think because HEW didn’t seem to be as bothered as you thought they might have been um that that was going to make your task more difficult or easier?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh I thought it would make it more difficult.  I mean I had expect -- I, I thought --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou wanted to be backed up?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI thought um you know um -- a carrot’s great but a stick is a (inaudible) [useful].  (laughter)  And um the stick was, you know, um not very sturdy.  Um... so I’m not sure whether I’m remembering correctly but I think by the second year, we were not talking about goals and timetables.  Um I’m trying to remember -- I think in the affirmative action plan that we published -- that we put together and published \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=9600.0,9900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"-- and I don’t know whether that was my first or second year; I think it may have been that first year -- I don’t remember.  But we showed numbers and we showed percentages of women -- I don’t remember what we did with minority (inaudible) members -- but you kind of had to fudge them.  Um and we didn’t say, you know, but -- so it was clear where, where, where departments and schools were um -- had fallen behind or were behind.  Um so I don’t think we ever set, you know, goals.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm... I don’t think we -- I don’t think the idea of setting goals and timetables was possible um unless HEW [could acquire it], given the opposition inside.  But you had asked me at one point did -- that was -- you know that you had heard -- you, you said that you had heard two versions of the Yale’s um position towards affirmative action -- one was that Yale had embraced it wholeheartedly and the other was that Yale had resisted it --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know, to the end.  Um I think goals and timetables, at least some people -- the important um pivotal figures in -- opposed it strenuously.  Um I don’t think most important figures in the Yale administration opposed affirmative action generally.  Um but the question is how much they were willing to back it and a lot of it was -- is money --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd money, I thought -- and money wasn’t very available in those years which was very frustrating.  Um I think if somehow you’d given arts and sciences an additional ten point (inaudible) and said, look if you find a, a great woman to appoint in your department you can have the extra -- we would have had it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMaybe not every department would be able to do that but certainly they would have tried.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt would have been an enormous incentive at least, wouldn’t it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right.  That’s right.  [But] everybody was feeling a pinch.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut um -- I mean there were arguments but, you know, you don’t want to have separate (inaudible) but, but you know the people set up ex -- separate money for a chair in this or a chair in that or something like that ah so why not.  Um anyway --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo by the time you’re four years -- you were four years in you were ready to move on?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh yeah.  Really.  I’m trying to remember -- I think by the end of my second year I was still feeling that, you know, there were things to do and I was still feeling pretty energetic because that was the time when Sid decided to leave --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd um I thought that made sense because he was really so unhappy with his department and opportunity down here made a lot of sense.  Um I had no intentions of leaving at that point because I’d still thought, you know, the job was interesting and challenging and (inaudible) and through the third year it was okay but, but by the fourth year things were beginning to -- I was drooping.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd, and um... yeah, and by -- I mean by, by the end I really had had it, I think.  I, it, I left pretty depressed about the whole thing and I felt kind of depressed about it for about a year or so afterward, if not longer.  You know it was just um -- I don’t know it was like ought to have done -- been able to do more but --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you feel that you’d been, in a way, wading through treacle maybe for -- or mud for such a long time and not making headway in the way that you’d hoped?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t(pause) Yeah, I’m thinking about your treacle and what (laughter) uh metaphor.  Um... I felt like I was slogging and um I wasn’t -- yeah, there wasn’t uh... you know, at this point the problem is I don’t remember specific frustrations but that’s what -- it was an accumulation of specific frustrations um and I wish I did remember those because that would be much more useful, both for me and for your report or for your um interview.  Um and if I do remember more instances um I will, you know, let you know.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tCertainly I, I um -- I will definitely keep a -- keep an eye open to see if I can track down that letter that you sent to uh President Buse-Brewster --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm because \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=9900.0,10200.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"ah your memory of it clearly would seem to indicate that a lot of the -- a lot of your frustrations -- \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tPent-up frustrations were in there, yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWent in it.  Yeah, went-when -- we’re in there so yeah I’ll, I’ll certainly see if uh if it’s possible to track it down [though] --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm I, you know, I don’t hold out a lot of, a lot of hope for it.  \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm the provost’s office would have it because I remember when I sent the copy down -- [Hanna] --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBut um you say that those files are [closed].\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, they’re, they’re pretty well -- they’re certainly highly restricted anyway so --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI, I shall try to -- actually having mentioned um Hanna Gray, that would be a good point, I think, to end the uh, uh the section on the, on the, on pro -- on your work in the provost’s office because of course for the last couple of years you did have a woman boss.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd ah I just wondered what your memory of that was like?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell Hanna was -- when she came in, you know, I was pretty excited -- I mean I had seen her in action on the corporation; she’s obviously got great personality and a lot of charisma and so forth.  Um and um I was delighted um to have her as my new boss and there were many ways in which um I continued to be delighted.  Um and just -- sometimes just little things like um... odd little things -- I remember once that there was, there was a bathroom in the provost’s office which Cooper and the men would use during meetings.  Um and one day I was down in the regular bathroom down the hall and Hanna showed up and I said, oh, why, why are you here?  And she said, I don’t feel comfortable by using that bathroom when there’s a meeting going on. (laughter)  She said I know that’s silly but she says, somehow I don’t feel like it because it’s, it’s not that private, right; you just go in and you close the door but still, you know, it’s like a -- and so that’s why -- but you know things like that, I remember thinking, yeah, Dick Cooper wouldn’t have had that problem.  (laughter)\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tActually, it’s, it’s amazing how often bathroom stories feature in this.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI -- that must be about the eighth one I’ve heard.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tReally?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm it’s the first one in the provost’s office but I’ve got ones from all over the campus.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt is -- it’s, it’s a -- it’s a really major symbolic thing.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Sure.  Well bathrooms -- I mean, yeah, are so -- I mean bathroom usage and, and customs are so important.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  So how did you find her um as a boss -- did you find her sympathetic?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYes and on certain issues she, you know, would come through; I can’t -- I remember a couple of meetings with her and various groups of either graduate students or I don’t remember the faculty but were -- where they wanted to... start certain kinds of programs that would, you know, somehow benefit women -- you know, not day care, but something of that sort -- and she was very sympathetic um and she was good at kind of doing leading questions so that they gave the right answers to, you know, the -- how it would benefit the community at large and stuff like that and I thought that was just delightful to watch.  Um and um she -- although when she came into office, it was still financially um -- the situation was very tight -- she didn’t have the same focus as, as Dick did so one didn’t feel quite as constrained um and one had the sense that she would make more exceptions um I’m -- I, I can’t remember specific things but there were a couple of -- I think there was an appointment in Afro-American studies there... at, at this point I can’t think of any women but where she would say, well, I think, you know, this kind of fits in with our general over -- affirmative action goals and so forth and, you know, it was very nice to have her in, in the catbird seat because she would make the decision; didn’t matter how many budgetary people or other people -- she would decide and so that, that was terrific.  Um... in some ways she was more difficult to work for than Dick because Dick was very dispassionate about things; I mean he, he was -- he was kind of -- you know, you could say he was cold but... you knew what was going to happen with Dick because it was just logic, logic, logic -- cold logic, buy logic.  Hanna would get upset about things.  Um she was more concerned par -- Dick was just in it for a couple of years.  Um he wasn’t going to be an administrator; he didn’t care.  Hanna, if she thought somebody wasn’t sufficiently loyal, would get upset and a couple of times I forgot to include her on copies of something; I can’t remember why -- stupidity, you know -- um \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=10200.0,10500.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"was really upset.  Um, um (pause) I’m not saying she, she shouldn’t have been, it -- but it was the way she got upset which would bother me, I guess.  Um (pause) as, as I said, she -- I think I explained to you before that she could -- you know depending upon her mood or um what the topic was about or how she was approached um she could be fabulously supportive and, you know, smart about how to be supportive and so forth and if she, she was caught in the wrong mood or she -- she would be really snappish um and come down -- I, I mean I saw her do that to other people in the office and I thought, ooh, you know.  Um people -- some bosses are like that, you know --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt’s not necessarily a woman thing --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo, I don’t think so.  I think it’s ah -- yeah, no I -- you know, definitely not because I’ve certainly um -- I, I think I’d seen it before and I’ve certainly seen it since in men.  I happen not to like it very much um but I, I think a lot of people behave that way, kind of more emotionally.  Um --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDo you think she was under greater pressure, being a woman in that job?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Absolutely.  You know she didn’t get to be president -- was she acting president?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tShe was acting president for a year after --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\t[Kingman] resigned.  \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  And you know she had all sorts of ins, ins with the corporation -- she had been a member of the corporation, and I heard she was bitterly disappointed when she didn’t get the presidency.  Um... can’t remember who they appointed instead.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt was Mark Gimonti (sp?).\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMark Gimonti (sp?).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tHuh, yeah.  Yeah, I, I don’t know whether -- I mean she was smart and she was um, you know, a-a-a-a quick learner; um she knew about budget; she knew about the ins and outs of, you know, academia um (pause) you know, my, my overall kind of mem-rememberance of her is that she was a strong person; very supportive lots of times and in other ways difficult to get along with so it’s a mixed thing.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm... path breaker.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Well, it’s always hard being a pioneer, isn’t it?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, oh sure.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tTo be out in front, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSure.  Absolutely --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd free --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd of course Kingman Brewster was my -- I think very urbane --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm... a very different style of person.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell Hanna could be just as charming.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tReally?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh absolutely; she had a -- I mean um when you saw them together because Hanna’s tall and big and um has a lot of the same -- I don’t know um -- kind of almost dashing; not dashing in the glamorous sense but, you know, kind of a, a, a verve.  Um they weren’t dissimilar in, in a funny way -- I mean she -- in that way she kind of fitted the role very well.  Um yeah so I don’t know why they didn’t make her president.  You know I had long gone by then.  Um... I think -- oh, there were some uh faculty complaints um -- yeah, as I said, you know, she’d get very touchy about certain things and apparently I remember now somebody told me at a faculty meeting that, that some faculty members -- maybe a lot of faculty members, I don’t remember -- were very critical of something that the provost’s office or the acting president had done.  And this was at the Yale College faculty meeting or something -- yeah, I can’t remember who described it to me -- and she was chairing... the, the -- should have been the dean of Yale College -- but anyway she was chairing and she left the chair to take the floor to berate the faculty.  That didn’t go over.  First of all, it was unusual, you know, to kind of feel that you had to um -- but that’s the kind of thing she would occasionally -- her, her temper was -- but anyway so that sort of thing may have not helped.  \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid she um -- because she was your boss, did she make any attempt to persuade you to stay?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo.  No, because by the time I wrote that letter to Kingman, I think she was very \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=10500.0,10800.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"annoyed at it --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tRight.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause there was implicit criticism [who away] she had or the provost’s office had and so forth.  Yeah, no, not at all.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSo you, you left Yale um to join Sid down here in Baltimore?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tNo I went to law school.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOh, you went to law school -- oh because you went to what law school in Philadelphia --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tPhiladelphia.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI keep thinking you went here --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd you went to law school in Philadelphia.  Why did you decide to go to law school?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell one of the things I did uh obviously was -- while I was learning about affirmative action and so on and so forth, would read a lot of law cases um and especially Supreme Court cases and there were terrific uh Supreme Courts in the sixties -- fifties and sixties and um into the early-seventies on affirmative action and civil rights and they stated so clearly, you know, what the rights were and what the wrongs were and um I -- and there was a lot of um public interest litigation at that time which was bringing about a lot of these changes in the law.  And one of the things I thought -- you know um at the university of administration, you had to be very patient (laughter) to -- and um... movement was very slow.  Um and I -- the frustration was also impatience at the, at the slow pace of everything um and I thought I’m not really cut out for this; this is not my personality; um... I’m going to go where the action is and I thought the action was in public interest law.  So that’s why, that's why I went to law -- I like the way lawyers think.  Um there’s, there’s a way of kind of make -- writing clearly when [reducing] things [with their essence] which I really like.  Um so I went to law school and I didn’t want to go to Yale because I didn’t want to stay in New Haven; I applied to Harvard -- I got in but I decided I didn’t want to be that far away.  Um so Penn -- one of the people who had been really helpful to me when I was at Yale was Clyde Summers who was professor of labor law at Yale and um in fact he had been chair of the faculty committee on affirmative action at one point -- um and he -- this was probably my third year or second year in, in the provost’s office and um he left to go to Penn.  Lou Pollack, who had been dean of the law school but was no longer the dean, had also gone to Penn and I think he recruited Clyde um and, and Lou had become dean at Penn and, and he recruited Clyde and, and I thought, well that sounds like a good school and they’re giving -- I mean there were other people on the faculty and it’s closer to Baltimore so I also applied there; I applied to a couple of [little] Washington schools and I decided, well people like Ellen Peters and so forth, they said, well the Washington schools weren’t that good.  Um, you know, people like to go to them because they’re near the seat of power but -- and um so I ended up at Penn because it was close and it was very good.  So that’s -- um and the first year I lived up in Philadelphia; I came back on weekends.  Um and the second year I um -- I got permission to take at the University of Maryland Law School so I was here in Baltimore and then my third year I went back to Penn; Sid had a leave of absence then -- he was given some sort of visiting appointment at Penn -- so we spent the third year up there.  Um and then I came back here.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tTo Baltimore. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd you’ve always practiced in the public sector... since?  You didn’t go into private practice.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  No I did not.  I didn’t want to go to work in a law firm because among other things, it sounded like at least the first several laws you were mostly carrying briefcases for senior partners and I certainly -- I was too old to do that.  (laughter)  Um but the public interest law firms that I was so attracted by were drying up by then because there had been um an inquiry by Congress into how the foundations are spending their money and they imposed ah various rules um on foundations; this was about that time and the Ford foundation and a couple of others that had funded a lot of these public interest law firms simply were unable to do so, at least at the same level, and um public -- you know other sources of funding were beginning to dry up too so there were none in Baltimore.  \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=10800.0,11100.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Uh there were some in Washington but I had commuted for a summer to Washington and I decided -- I didn’t want -- I, I was really tired of commuting by then so I decided to just look for a job here and I’d worked one summer at the National Labor Relations Board and I thought that was um a nice place to work and interesting because one did a lot of interviews; it, it was on the ground type, you know, work and so one did investigations and um then did hearings based on -- um and that was a very nice combination because once I got tired of interviewing witnesses or potential witnesses or claimants, um then I can go and research the law and write it up so it was a nice -- [I didn’t go] back and forth.  And I worked there for... three or four years, I can’t remember exactly, and then a position opened up with the American Association of University Professors in Washington and somebody tell me about it -- somebody in the office said, oh, he’s going to apply for that but then he found out that um they have tenure at the AAUP; they like to pretend they’re university and um you -- so you didn’t have tenure until you’d been there six or seven years and then if you were awarded tenure than you had tenure [another (inaudible)] and he said, I’m not going to do that, you know.  Um so I said, well I’ll look into it so I did and I interviewed for the job and ultimately I got the job.  Um and that was an interesting organization to work for because they had such interesting issues.  Um and we didn’t do any trial uh work; we did all appellate work and we only wrote (inaudible) briefs so we didn’t have to worry about facts; we just kind of wrote, you know, what we thought of the theory of (inaudible) case you’re doing.  Um and they did, you know, women’s discrimination cases; they did academic freedom cases; um they did some civil rights stuff; um some governance stuff, you know -- academic governance, university governance -- um and that was interesting.  The main reason I left was it was in Washington so I was commuting um and the trains in those days -- the commuter train, which had the advantage of being very reasonable -- um didn’t work very well and the AAUP had a lot of evening and weekend meetings and the commuter train didn’t work outside of regular rush hours.  Um and um the -- it was difficult to get a train out of Washington back to Baltimore after -- there was a train around 8:00 and there was a train around 10:00 and so I ended up taking a lot of 10:00 trains which meant I wouldn’t get home until, you know, close to midnight and then I’d have to go back in the morning -- that, that was tiring.  So I, I, I left after three years and um I worked in consumer protection.  It -- you know, I, I left the kind of employment civil rights area and worked in consumer protection for a number of years and for a while it was terrific because it was a very -- I liked civil prosecution, it turned out, and that, that -- we took the cases that could not be resolved by our complaints people and brought essentially class action uh actions against bad um companies and marketers and I did that for quite a few years and then that, that division started um getting very conservative and not bringing actions and (inaudible) -- for, I think it was for political reasons.  But anyway I found that frustrating and I ended up um -- there was a job in educational affairs which was the division of the attorney general’s office that um represented all the private -- I mean all the public universities of the state, including College Park, but also the community colleges and state universities, and so forth.  And so that’s what I did for the last six or seven years of my legal career.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWell, a very varied career all the same.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah, no, I, I, I enjoyed it.  Um and, you know, I, I’m, I’m -- I was always happy not to be working for -- I had clients in my last job, right, because we were representing -- um and I -- it took me a while to get used to it and also it was the first time I wasn’t on the plaintiff’s side and I remember about a year after I got there, somebody was walking down the hall um carrying a big poster exhibits and it said um, “Defendants Exhibits 2,” or something like that, and I said, “Why are you carrying their \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=11100.0,11400.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"exhibit?”  And she said -- and the person said, “That’s our exhibit.”  I wasn’t used to be on the defendant’s (laughter) -- so, you know, I had to turn things around.  Um but that, that was interesting too.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you ever, looking back at your time at Yale, um ever feel that there was any kind of sisterhood amongst the fe -- the minority of women who were on campus in, in important positions either on the faculty or, or in the administration?  Or was it every man and woman for themselves?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOh no, I mean, uh sisterhood -- there was no kind of organized group; there was a women’s faculty --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tA women’s faculty forum -- yes, there was one from about ’71, I think.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tAnd um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI think -- I’m thinking more in terms of was there um an alternative network that you were able to call on --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThrough the women on campus?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWell the problem was um because you had asked me that in one of your email questions, I think, was that there were no -- there were virtually no senior women um... so I think your, your question was were there any that I -- that were helpful as mentors, something like that.  There were no senior women virtually -- I mean Ellen Peters in the law school was terrific and she was very helpful.  The -- some of the faculty women -- if you’re a member of the faculty, it’s not quite the same as being in the administration so um... I’m trying to think if I -- somehow I got to know [Inger Borne Gleer] but, I mean, she was good at certain things but not, you know, at the ins and outs of the Yale administration.  Um... for somebody to been -- have been useful to me as a mentor, it would have had to have some -- had been somebody who had experience in, in, in administrations.  Um and, you know, (inaudible) I’m trying to think -- one of the people I remember talking to on various occasions was the new dean of the law -- of the nursing school, Donna Deers (sp?) --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDonna Deers (sp?), yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYes, she was, she was good.  Um but I remember she was kind of horrified when she found out about some of the retrograde attitudes of, of some of the faculty because, you know, she didn’t run into that same kind of problem in nursing school.  Um... the people I was, you know, closest too, like Bobbie and so forth -- I mean I, I could confide and then one of the other things is -- it’s good to have somebody you can talk to that you can confide in and, and, and Bobbie was very good at keeping, you know, con-confidential things confidential.  Um but again she didn’t have the experience except the kind of -- maybe with student affairs and, and she was a good sounding board but she couldn’t respond with experience.  The people I found most helpful that way were outside of Yale.  Um there was a woman named Sheila Tobias who was at --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOh yes, yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tWesleyan.  She was terrific and I would call her and talk to her about various things.  Um... there was a woman at MIT, Mary Roe, who stayed on and on the job; I don’t know how she managed the frustration because she, she just had a lot of different kinds of strengths.  She was very low key; she had a huge network within MIT and she was just -- she was an economist by training -- um and she was um a very wise person who was really good to kind of seek advice from or to bounce things off on so I, I was -- I think she was probably the person I used the most um... \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tDid you ever become that kind of person to other women?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tProbably.  Probably because I had a broader view of things and, and they would, you know, come and complain about various things and I would try to figure out and explain to them what I thought was right or wrong about what they saw um or -- and try to clarify it or -- um or -- he used to be a good problem solver, you know, on particular things um which, you know, I used kind of when I was in Saybrook and \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=11400.0,11700.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"before that.  Um... yeah I don’t how many women but I know there were some women who came to my office a lot with tales of frustration and how were they going to deal with this crazy chairman or that um senior colleague and so forth and we would try to work things out.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI think I -- I wish I could remember where it was but I think you said somewhere -- it may have been in that interview for the, the essay -- \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tSenior essay -- you said something like um you felt that there wouldn’t be real um progress for women in academic life until there were enough women in senior positions; it wasn’t so much a matter of numbers of women.  What was key?  Was senior positions -- senior women?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t[I don’t know] what I was saying but, but that was based on if I said that --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI can’t for the life of me think where I, I -- it’s just come, come back into my head that -- that was --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.  I’m trying to think if, if, if I would agree with that statement.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah would you agree with yourself?  (laughter)  You’re allowed to change your mind if you wanted to.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tOften -- I -- yeah, I think senior -- see my only objection would be to the part that said it didn’t matter how many junior women -- I think that, that would matter too.  Yeah, I think having senior women, many of them would have been very helpful.  Um... among other things, especially at the faculty level, it would make the junior faculty feel that there was some hope for them.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm (pause) yeah I -- you know, in thinking about that question which you had emailed me, one of the things that I realized kind of -- I’m thinking way back I’d done a lot of work repressing a lot of that -- um was that I did feel isolated and kind of lonely there, I mean, because who else could one talk to about that, you know.  I mean -- I -- that’s why I say Horace Taft, believe it or not, um was very good at listening and, you know, sympathetically -- the, the dean of the graduate school, Don Taylor in his own way, was also good at, at uh kind of listening to my complaints.  Um... yeah but --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI wonder if maybe part of it is that um in a essentially male institution until um the sixties began to, to, to change that that men had always -- at whatever level they’re at whether they were junior faculty or junior administrators and senior administrators -- that there was a kind of uh, uh a network -- a male network -- that somehow you could plug into at various points when you needed to but women didn’t have that so maybe -- I wonder if it was just easier for men to be on the inside track.  That um in an informal way that wasn’t open to women because so much of it is, is social --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd unspoken.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm, mm-hmm; yeah, they play squash together. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat, that sort of thing, yeah --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOr have a drink at the bar or whatever it is.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.  I don’t know; I’m sure that exists.  I mean, you know, you, you read about that sort of thing and I think in certain, in certain fields and, and at certain times it’s definitely the case.  Um (pause) yeah, I, I um (pause) I really can’t say because I didn’t -- if there had been kind of other senior women around, it would have been really nice just because it’s nice to be able to compare notes with somebody who’s knowledgeable, you know.  Um and um and it’s also, you know, it’s good to com -- to, to tell somebody about the particular problem because they may have a solution that you haven’t come up with.  Um but I -- this, this network thing, I’m sure it exists, you know, but I can’t think of any particular instances because I, you know, there, there, there are men who don’t belong in that network too.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tBecause they don’t play squash or whatever. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYou know, um \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=11700.0,12000.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"so I don’t know, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tWhat do you think your greatest achievement at Yale was?\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tGreatest achievement (pause) uh --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou seem to have enjoyed the Saybrook job a lot.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, I did like that; I was glad I, I resolved that housing problem um... um gee, I don’t know.  I, I, I think (pause) -- I think, you know, I got the affirmative action program up and going; um I think that was something um -- did I tell you about the uh program in the sciences for students from black colleges.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tNo you didn’t.  No.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm that was something that um -- I can’t remember how I came out -- and somebody gave me that idea -- I know; it was a um -- he was a black scientist from one of the black colleges who was very energetic and creative and he, he pointed out that one of the problems that the students who were potential, you know, science graduate students had in the black colleges -- that they didn’t have the adequate equipment and um the junior faculty often times um couldn’t mentor them because it was very autocratic; the black colleges tend to be that way and then the senior faculty would kind of... prevent younger people from doing things so they couldn’t mentor the students and the students -- so we came up with a program, with the help of the dean of the graduate school, Don Taylor, and a couple of um young faculty members in, in the biological-type sciences.  Um so that we brought up -- I can’t remember -- six or more um juniors I think from black colleges who were potential science graduate students and they would work in a lab with a Yale science person for the summer and uh they would be able to keep in touch with the Yale people and hopefully they would apply to graduate school.  I don’t remember -- I think some of them did; I don’t know how many but it was an eye-opener, you know -- it was useful.  Um I, I thought that was a good thing that we did.  Um... aside from, you know, kind of these generalizations about getting the program up and going and more or less on it even keel -- I wish I knew what happened afterwards.  Um because, you know, on the one hand I think I managed to achieve certain results.  Um on the other hand I was left with this feeling that I could have done more -- a lot more or I should have.  Um and so it, it would be really gratifying to know what else happened; I was interested that you mentioned that there had been a number of kind of committee reports since then and --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tA lot of the same problems seem to be --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, they do --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tSeem to exist.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThey, they, they, they change ever so slightly but they’re also the same so --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou know the, the, the changes often are very incremental.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd uh and some of the, the very basic ones um do still remain the same -- that um, that in 1971, people were campaigning for better affordable childcare and they’re still doing that.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIs there no childcare?  I was going to (inaudible) about that.    \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tOh there is, there is but it, it the question of, of uh there are just simply not enough places and, and the question, the question of who can afford it as well.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tIt’s pretty expensive.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Yeah.  Well I, I don’t know because I’ve never had to use it --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh-huh, yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tBut um yes the -- you know those sorts of things -- again the whole issue of um the sick -- the really important years uh if you’re wanting tenure coincide with childbearing years --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYou know, those are always like immovable things --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd, and uh -- and you have to -- and there’s constantly trying to get -- find a way around that --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tThat would empower um women.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm so yes, some things, in some ways, feels never changes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd, and Yale is not unique in that -- not by any manner.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  For sure; I haven’t heard of anybody having solved it.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, no. (laughter) I think there may --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t[It didn’t get] the first page of the Times. \r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Um well maybe, maybe yet the, the structural change will actually come about.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah but it’s -- I mean it’s, it’s very fundamental some of those --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tIt is.  Yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tFor women -- for, for [blacks] it’s a different issue.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm I just don’t know what the numbers look like in, in uh for blacks in graduate school.  I’m sure it went down even for a while.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI mean --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tI, I, you know, I added them, you know, had not been my main concern so I really don’t know what the, the current figures \n\n","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=12000.0,12300.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270/transcript/31934/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"are like.  Um uh and whether they, you know, uh are genuinely reflecting of the population at large; I, I really have no idea. \r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI’m -- I should mention one thing I was thinking about because we’ve been talking mostly about faculty and to some extent students but um the one area that I had spent some time on was um in, in the um managerial professional area --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUh-huh.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUm you know there’s the bargaining unit and then there’s the secretaries --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\t[A clerical] unit and then there are all these managerial --\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tM and P’s, I think.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah, yeah.  Exactly.  Um and there were about a thousand, 1,500 of them at the time -- there were a lot by the time you put them all together.  Um and they were... there were no job classifications; I mean there were titles but people hand out titles like it’s candy, you know, um and salaries -- I’m not sure how they were [settled] -- probably by just one woman in the personnel department -- and so um I pushed and they eventually set up a uh wage and salary classification committee to work on that and I sat on that and that was very interesting because (laughter) I kept pointing out they didn't like it but that the jobs where the people -- the supervisors who supervised bargaining unit employees were much better paid than the supervisors who were non-bargaining unit and I said, I don’t think it’s coincidental (laughter) because they had to pay them more than the bargaining unit and bargaining unit was being paid much more than the clerical people, right.  And also positions where there were a lot of women, like certain kinds of research associates and librarians -- that was less well paid.  So I mean it took time because they -- I mean for them to have rec --made the correction right away um would have been very expensive but they put into um -- they, they adopted some sort of plan that would over time rectify a lot of those salary inequities; I thought that was really important.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes and... um your clerical and technical staff and managerial and professional staff are often sort of forgotten in a, in a university --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.  Mm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAdministration -- uh, uh context and yet, you know, they um -- they’re so necessary to the -- just to the whole organization --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tTo the whole institution.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tMm-hmm.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAnd as you say to uh -- in, in certain areas, you know, that was one area -- certainly the library has historically one area where there has been uh um uh where really I think probably women have predominated.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah and they’re as severely underpaid.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  I have interviewed one or two senior librarians uh who have since retired um and uh and it’s, it’s interesting to hear them talk about being in a, in a, in a female part of a male institution.  (laughter)\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah, but the heads of the library were male.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYes.  Up until --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI don’t know about now.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah, well no -- the current librarian’s actually a woman and uh the first woman was ah Penny Abel (sp?); I think she came in, in the eighties --\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tUh-huh.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tAs the librarian.  Um... so no, no until she came they always had been uh -- been men.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tYeah.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah but all -- everyone at -- I think at the next layer pretty well were women.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tThat’s right.  Yeah.\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tYeah.  Well look, thank you very much, Jackie; you must be exhausted because you’ve been talking for a long time.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tI have (inaudible).\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tUm yes.\r\n\nJACQUELINE MINTZ:\tHow long have I been talking?\r\n\nINTERVIEWER:\tLet me just stop this.  Thank you again.\r\nEnd - Mintz 120908","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/970/collection_resources/48964/file/122270#t=12300.0,12581.32898"}]}]}]}