{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/6688g8hj7t/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Costello, Jan"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/013/original/yale-blue.png?1678220072","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Identifier"]},"value":{"en":["RU 1175 (Call Number)","Jan_Costello_A023C086_190921SJ_OPAC1.mp4 (Digital Object ID)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["video/mp4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["https://preservica.library.yale.edu/explorer/explorer.html#prop:4\u0026amp;76d0325a-73e8-46d3-b969-4513ea784f5d (Other Finding Aid Note)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Manuscripts and Archives, Yale University Library."]}},{"label":{"en":["Source Metadata URI"]},"value":{"en":["https://archives.yale.edu/repositories/12/archival_objects/3885931"]}},{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["Interview . Coeducation, Yale University, records and memorabilia (RU 1175). 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If you're comfortable like that you're fine. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=4.0,4.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think you're good. Yeah if you're comfortable with that... \n\nCameraman","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=4.0,4.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It won't bother me.\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=4.0,8.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"All right. All right. All right. What the heck, okay. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=8.0,12.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"All right so Jan tell me your name and class you graduated from at Yale. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=12.0,17.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My name is Jan Costello and I graduated in the class of 1972. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=17.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Jan, what were you like growing up?\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=22.0,24.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What was I like growing up. Well here's the story I tell my law students and it's very true, I had an older brother. He was argumentative and articulate and intellectually curious and people kept praising him and saying \"That's great, you're going to be a lawyer someday.\" And I was exactly the same way. And it being the '50s and early '60s people would say \"Cut that out. You're never going to get married.\" So the same qualities that were praised in my brother were not praised in me, except perhaps perhaps by my mother, Smith class of '41, who thought it was pretty cool but I joke about it because both my brother and I became lawyers. I became a law professor. He became a judge. Neither of us married until he was 40 I was 38. So we probably both were hard to get along with but right growing up I think I very much felt that I was I guess I say a feminist before Betty Friedan had written her book and a feminist while Simone de Beauvoir was still ghostwriting for Jean-Paul Sartre. I just was looking around going why you know why can't I do or why is being the person I am so unacceptable, not okay for a girl. And so that's pretty much what I remember being smart being argumentative being wordy being ambitious and and all that being very wrong for a girl. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=24.0,112.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What were you like in high school and what kind of high school did you go to?\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=112.0,116.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Ah good question also. I went seventh eighth and ninth grade to the School for Young Ladies that my mother had attended in her time and it's one reason when people later started talking about the joys of single-sex women's education and how it empowered women and how it was great I said man you know the deepest circle of hell is to be in seventh eighth or ninth grade with girls not because there was anything innately terrible about girls but again the culture sort of shaping things. I was remembering how on weekends they would take us to mixers at boys' prep schools or single-sex male schools. It was like here at Yale, when the the weekend imports would come from Smith, Vasser, Mount Holyoke because there was still very much a social shaping that you were being educated to marry one of these men and you know kind of grow up together and my mother had done that. So I thought it was pretty terrible. The other thing I remembered very much about those three years was the sense of men and boys as a totally separate species. You know you were interested in flirting with them you were supposed to marry one of them but didn't get along and whereas my childhood I had been best friends with the boy across the street. He had a bunch of brothers my brother was best friends with his older brother. So I had grown up mostly with a group of boys and felt very comfortable with boys. So this seemed to me just just again very odd in another way in which I was learning that being a girl was kind of this world, and that didn't fit where I was. But then I graduated I went for three years to a coed school that my brother had attended and that saved me. I mean it's the the only other way to put it, because it was a very progressive intellectually open school. I got a lot of praise for being myself for being talkative for being debating for being intellectually curious for wanting to do independent work. And there was a good group of both women and men that I felt close to. So three years of horror, three years of good coed but I came out of that anticipating that what I should do would be to find a school like Radcliffe-Harvard or Pembroke-Brown where you know women had a school but you were part of the larger. And I had the grades and I had the scores and life being what it is I didn't get into anything except my absolute safety school which was Washington U. And I went out to Washington U and spent a year there, got on the debate team, all guys except for me. And when we were in Hartford in the fall of 1969 I think November New York Times announced that Yale was going coed and I thought well what the heck you know I'll apply and the you know the rest as they say is history. But that's a long answer to your question. But when I try to explain sometimes to my women particularly history students that sort of how things were growing up in a nice you know upper middle class gentrified Catholic family in upstate New York it was unworldly. I mean it was unreal compared to the life that they have and that we had once we were here. So I I look back at probably my life until I went to The Harley School which was the three year coed school as you know just years of going well I'm this way and girls are supposed to be this way and I'm this way and you know what can I do about that? Nothing.  \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=116.0,340.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What drew you in about Yale? What did you know about it? What were your expectations?\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=340.0,344.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I knew about it because my uncle my mother's brother had gone to Yale with the veteran's class, class of '48 I think it was. They all came back from the war and he had a lifetime membership at Mory's and my mother used to sing me the Whiffenpoof song when I was little so I sort of knew well Uncle Jack had gone and it was you know great. And my mother had gone to Smith and she talked about you know weekends at Yale and and Princeton and whatever but so but I so I sort of had a time warped sense of it not quite Dink Stover at Yale you know but everybody in white flannels you know playing tennis and this and that. But then when I came down and saw it looked around I remember seeing the Beinecke Library and even though it was raining outside the you know the amber light coming through those special marble walls and to me a library was always you know that's where you were happy, that's where you were safe, that's where the you know just suck in those books. And I thought this is I can do this. You know I think I thought I was going to live in the Beinecke Library [laughing] but I thought yes. So I think my expectation was that yeah it would be a place where I could find you know I could find myself. And it was it absolutely was. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=344.0,423.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Did you think being part of that first class of coeducation, was that alluring to you [unintelligible]? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=423.0,430.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Yes. Oh yes. Because as I said I was you know I was I was a feminist back then they used to call \"women's liber\" was that a derogatory term. And I do my roommates deny this but they're wrong. I think one of the first weeks we were all together the the braver guys which sometimes meant the more obnoxious guys would come knock on the women's door and a couple of them put their head around the door and said \"Are any of you feminists?\" And my roommate said \"Jan is.\" Which was [laughing] a good way for moving me from the competition. But also I remember I got a heavy crush on a young young man in college which I'd never had before. And I was first my first big crush and one of my roommates was called in and she was away that weekend and asked another roommate, \"So how are things?\" And the roommate who answered the phone said \"Oh they're great we haven't heard about women's liberation for a week she's in love.\" Which was me [laughs]. So for me yes coming and you know clearing the beach head and hurling myself in and proving that I could do it and women were you know up there. That was a big attraction for me and not I think so much for my for my roommates partly because in my in my impression anyway meeting them there are four of them, all wonderful. They had no conflict. They had not grown up with the conflict I had been raised with. They were expected to do very well in school. They were opinionated. They were expected to be ambitious but they also had had boyfriends. They'd you know gone to their prom. Their parents expected them to marry. And so at least my perception was you know they they were a whole different breed than the girls I had been brought up with. And I was just in awe and still am actually but they sort of took me under their wing and said you know in essence well you're kind of a you know you're kind of an odd duck here but you know it's okay. We can all kind of go along with this. They bought me sometimes more fashionable clothing. They coached me through my first crush. Yeah. I was tremendously influenced by them just because they all at least to me at the time seemed not to experience the conflict I had been raised with. And I had come to Yale right wanting to take on the b... the beachheads but expecting to be friends with boys and to hold my own in classes with men because that had never been an issue. That I could always do. But fitting into whatever the role was for women that had always been very strange to me. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=430.0,604.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you think your roommates learned something from you as well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=604.0,605.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They, I think so. They remember me as being of course completely self-confident and just you know let you know bring it on and they keep telling me I should take the journals that I kept through those years and hand them over to the archives because I was always writing and typing and so I think yeah they they saw in me somebody who was very sort of my own person which is true because I never felt like the option was to become the girly girl, it was just I was gonna be me but as a maybe the price of being me would be I'd have a bunch of guy friends. I'd never marry which I expected not to. And my goal when I went to college was to get a PhD in history or American studies and teach because I admired a high school teacher that I had who had a PhD me in English and taught and she had a friend who had a PhD in early English literature and taught and so I thought well that's you know that's what I'll do. So the academic side of things I had great confidence in. The social side I was scared to death but not social in terms of having friends with men that I could do. But having a boyfriend having a romantic life presenting myself sort of as a as a woman in a social way. Nah. Terror. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=605.0,699.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Did you try to navigate that at all did or did you did you avoid it did you date did you..?\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=699.0,706.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I spent a lot of time the first couple of years just with male friends and that was very comfortable for me. The having the major crush my sophomore year I guess you could say we dated a little because but back then you know you'd sort of hang around. So we hung around for a while and then he decided it wasn't going to go anywhere which was quite likely because God this is all coming back he was one of four boys he had a brother also at Yale one younger sister. His mother had raised them all taught them piano and violin, this is coming back. She was obviously she'd not been on college graduate herself but she was like the ultimate home mother. She baked all the bread I think she made all their clothes. One point I remember he brought me her recipe for bread and little stuff. So you know I didn't think that was going to go anywhere he didn't think that was gonna go anywhere but he was so cute [squeak?] so [laughs]. But when that didn't work out I had had no previous you know boyfriends so I just sort of sat there going well that's over you know like a Victorian novel where you know you you wandered once in the garden with a gentleman but it was not to be you know whereas my roommates were you know out there dating and breaking up and dating and very different. But my senior year I got into a serious relationship my first serious relationship my first real love my first lover and I still am in touch with him and I said \"Well you know I'm gonna be interviewed and I've got my journals.\" And he said \"Just name no names.\" [Laughs]. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=706.0,814.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tell me about your journals. Why did you feel the need to keep a journal? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=814.0,817.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'd started doing that when I was 16 and it was partly because I thought I was going to be sort of an academic and because I was you know an odd duck. So I just started keeping it. I figured that I should be writing for the you know for the the far future and I was and am a big science fiction fan. So I decided that probably long after we've all left Earth that there will be Martian archaeologists and archivists you know looking through sort of sort of what's the word I want here the outer not the outer limits, Rod Serling Twilight Zone, you know sort of [coughs] looking through the wreckage. So I would always direct it you know to that to the the the archaeologist and I would that was fun because I could explain Earth customs or what I was learning you know and what was going on and so on so I did that for a long time. I kept the journal until I was 38 and got married and then I said well you know it's like Reader I married him. And I didn't I was no longer an alone person writing about my life and so I didn't write after that. My roommates have been telling me though to dredge up the journals and if I can find them I will. And maybe I can hand them over to the archivists. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=817.0,906.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'm sure it would be fascinating to go through and relive things. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=906.0,909.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think so. I mean probably just funny I remember reading a section of one not from one being it being here but when I was young just finishing law school I guess and I read it and I thought I was quite touched by the young girl who wrote it you know. I mean I could I could remember her and how vulnerable she was and how sweet she was and it was sort of like awe poor thing she didn't know nothing [laughs]. And I imagine if I read if I get do find the journals and I go back I will I may have that tenderness toward the the younger me. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=909.0,947.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Take me into your experiences in the classroom at Yale. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=947.0,953.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At Yale. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=953.0,955.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What was it like? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=955.0,955.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Classroom was fine generally speaking because I was always used to being the star pupil and doing the reading and participating. And I remember it mostly being fine. I do remember the first year we had to do a short paper like 4 pages and I wrote it and worked on it and I I had a question in my mind is this going to be good enough for Yale. It certainly would have been good enough you know for my high school. It was good enough for Washington University and the professor made copies of it and passed it around to everybody and said \"This is what I want.\" And that in a sense also kind of liberated me because I thought okay so my standards are consistent with Yale. What I do is good you know I'm going to be so that was fine. And in classroom in the classrooms yeah I always felt very very welcomed and very supported in the American Studies Department, in the English Department, in history. I had one really annoying experience which I will talk about. I took a course in medieval literature and I won't I will name names it was taught by a guy named Dewey Faulkner who now teaches I think in Texas but he had been opposed to coeducation and he told us that the first day. He was a really young guy and although back then everybody was closeted sort of the concept or the presentation was that he was in fact gay which is relevant to what I have to say in a minute. He told us he was against having women there and there I was there and there was another woman in the class and the medieval literature has a lot of very misogynistic texts you know women as the gaze dig to evil and you know Eve the serpent and there's a lot and he would as... would assign a lot of that and read it out loud in class and I would fight with him. I would argue with him and analyze not arguing feminism you're arguing the literature you know but I would fight with him and go on with","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=955.0,1079.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"that. And it it was it made me angry. I would say not uncomfortable because I felt like I could take him on but I didn't like it. And the other woman in the class in my memory was silent. She said nothing. About halfway through the semester because this was just going on and going on I went to talk to a professor that I trusted whose name was Jaroslav Pelikan. He was a big deal in the Divinity School and he also taught courses in you know sort of overview courses Renaissance, Reformation whatever. So I talked to him about this and he said well when he had been in college in a \"mostly Christian College\" there had been a professor who was anti-Semitic and was hostile to the Jewish students and he said if you yourself go up and fight with this professor you're just giving him what he wants what you have to do is what happened in his class he and another Christian student went to the professor and told him to cut it out. So he said you know find you know get a couple of men students who in the class who are good students that the professor will respect and you know have them go and say \"Cut it out.\" So I thought oh okay. My best friend male at the time was in the class with me and was a very good student and I approached him first and he said no he wouldn't do it. [85.2s] He was gay. He sort of saw the professor as a role model and he didn't want to take it on. And I still remember he said you know \"It's just not important to me.\" And I thought well yeah it's important to me but not to him. Got it. So there was another guy in the class who was more of a gung ho guy. So I talked to him and he said ugh if I talk to him it'll just to be asking him why he doesn't read you know language about why doesn't he read medieval language about faggots. And I thought to myself well this is not gonna be very helpful either is it. So I kept my mouth shut and wrote my paper and thought you know we'll see when the grades come out. If the grades are fair I won't say anything but if they're not then you know I will take it in. I actually worked as a bursary student for two years in the Yale College Dean's Office so I knew George May and I knew Dean Taft you know later Dean Taft so I sort of felt like I could do something if I had to. But as it turned out he was a fair grader. The other woman wrote a paper and she got an honors plus. I got an honors on mine. He did a little thing in the last class saying the best paper was written by this other person. And so I went okay. That was really the only experience that I had but I remember feeling that yeah hurt hurt that my friend wouldn't help but also it's like guys got the guy who was presumably unhappy because he thought the professor homosexual it wasn't about fairness it was more about you know which prejudice are you going to object to. But that was that was the only bad experience I had in the classroom and otherwise I have to say and it'll sound corny I sort of felt like I had found my home that this was this was my place and the way I was and the way I thought and the way I did things was exactly right. And the younger professors especially but I had one older Professor too were mentors for me. They totally encouraged me to go on to graduate school go to law school. They said you know your total that you're certainly capable of an academic career you can do what you want to do. It gave me tremendous confidence and that they liked to me that they respected me that they encouraged me you know. And so for me Yale College in general was a tremendously empowering experience. It was the place where just being myself and doing what I had always done was not only OK but what was rewarded. It was the thing. It was the right thing and that and I've always sort of carried that with me. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1079.0,1332.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"How would you define the learning environment. or describe it at Yale as a whole? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1332.0,1341.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It was very self-propelled I mean I'm sure there were people who just went to class and you know did the notes into this and that but you could there was great encouragement at least as I remember it to do independent studies to take on an additional project and I remember feeling there's not one word for this but I'll give you an example. This actually happened when I was in graduate school but it was true undergraduate as well. I went to see R.W.B. Lewis who is a fabulous scholar. He was one of my idols as an American Studies writer and I was taking a literature course with him and I'd happen to have read Edith Wharton's \"The Custom of the Country\" which at that point was out of print. I just sort of pulled it out of a bin somewhere and I'd read it and I went in to meet with him about my paper and he said \"Oh you know what are you doing on this?\" And I said \"Oh I've just read this wonderful book.\" And he just beamed at me and said \"Oh tell me all about it.\" And I burbled on about \"The Custom of the Country\" and left thinking well was a nice conversation and like the next day his monumental biography of Edith Wharton came out in the New York Times. I actually was rereading it before I came here and I thought he wasn't condescending to me. He genuinely was enjoying you know talking to me about Edith Wharton and \"The Customer of the Country.\" And I really felt that in the college that you know all these great thinkers were genuine were genuinely interested in talking with undergraduate students and the contrast if I can say because I stayed for the law school was the law school was not nearly so welcoming and I was quite shocked. But I think this may have been part of the Yale identification with you know having great minds available for undergraduates. And I taught when I was in graduate school as a you know history T.A. and yeah I remember you know very much having that sense of making things accessible to the students encouraging them whatever they were interested in doing. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1341.0,1471.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What about politically what was going on at the time that you were there there was so much going on. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1471.0,1475.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well we had we had the Pan... we had so much going on. We had the Panthers. We had May Day. I remember again having grown up a nice Catholic girl you know and you follow authority the policeman is your friend nice white suburban girl you know why would I have any trouble. And I remember going out into York Street when the National Guard were there and they were they were all there with their stuff and I you know dumb as a rock I was sort of like \"Oh hi.\" And they went [internal scream] with the guns you know looking terrified and I thought holy mackerel I'm the enemy. You know they've been sent down here. Kent State had just happened and my father who was a very very conservative guy called me up to tell me that the National Guard had been right to kill the students. And so I thought boy you know that the the way I'd been brought up he worked for the Department of Defense he was you know and was old line Navy so it was you know you follow orders you defer to the authority you do what you're told. And I thought my goodness you know the world here I am perhaps not not someone to be the nice white girl to be protected. But I'm now being seen probably the way people of color have always felt you know that that sense of of not necessarily being protected. We had the Panthers talking about you know rejecting your white parents and rejecting what you know the racism with which you'd been raised and then outside we had the we had the National Guard. I ended up volunteering for to work in one of the first aid stations and I remember that there were some doctors from the medical school and some staff and you know people would come in. We'd wash out their eyes with the tear gas and I remember one person had a very seri...to me it was scary bleeding skull skull cut but the doctor said no it's just you know bleeding very freely but we bandaged it and so on and I do remember cleaning out the eyes of somebody who's like who said \"Thanks Sister, gonna go back and get the pig who did it.\" And I'm like \"No. Wait. Peace. Love.\" [laughs] You know that was that was it was it was a strange time. And having been raised by you know a pretty conservative Republican people took me a while to get against the war but I certainly did eventually. And I remember feeling very much like a moderate. And as as my life has turned out I'm you know I've been in public interest work and then in academia and I don't know that I've changed that much politically but compared to my family of origin I'm a wild eyed leftist and compared to a lot of my students and colleagues in California I'm you know I'm middle of the road. So make of that what you will. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1475.0,1661.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Did you ever have a moment where you felt like this was a remarkable time in history and life? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1661.0,1665.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh yes yes I had that coming out of high school too because the spring that I graduated, 1968 we had Dr. King and then Bobby Kennedy. No it was it was a huge time and we were very aware of that. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1665.0,1684.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Working in that first aid tent or volunteering did that change you or did that affect you in any way doing that work? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1684.0,1693.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I don't think so. I remember I also did some training the I think it was the ACLU came through and sort of trained us how to be a sort of a non nonpartisan witness you know what to do if you saw some abuse. I think I I have held on to that. I mean my my career has been in public interest law and I've worked with in institutions with people who were abused and so on. So I think the I think I used the training but I but when I look back I mean that was such a nice safe good girl thing to do. You know I wasn't going out on the green and getting my head bashed in. I was you know staying behind the lines and bandaging the wounded. So that was a nice safe middle of the road thing to do. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1693.0,1737.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What did she think you learned about yourself at Yale during those years? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1737.0,1743.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"This is very this going to sound very arrogant but it's true. I learned that I could act well two things I learned that I I could pretty much do anything that I wanted to that I had the ability to do what I wanted and that who I was was absolutely okay. And that was huge. Sort of I keep saying you know I felt like I had come home like this was my this this was my right place to be. And I wasn't going to be there forever but the three years that I was especially undergraduate I felt yes what I was what I am the way I am the way I approach problems the way I think about things the way I write they were right. They were good things. And I could take them onward and do good things with them. And that's a great gift. And the name Yale too you know [unintelligible] and one reason I stayed at the here for the law school is I remember talking to a woman attorney who'd gone to Yale too and she said \"If you have the Yale name you get the almost the same presumption almost the same presumption of competence that men have.\" And for many years men have relied on the Yale name as sort of seal right. We know they're smart. We know they're competent. We know they're a leader. We know they're okay and they've counted on that. And some of them have coasted on that you know. And so when you have that credential they can't knock it down because they'd be knocking down their own system. And she recommended that I stay at Yale for law school as opposed to go some other places where I would have gotten a full scholarship. With Yale I have to take out I had a half scholarship. But she wasa absolutely right because the name has always opened doors for me. It's always gotten me the interview. After that you know it's up to me to perform but nobody could say you know you're not qualified. And as a young lawyer if somebody said \"Where'd you go to law school?\" And I told them they're like \"Oh\" right. What can they say? Right. I was at dinner with someone a couple of years ago and he said \"Oh so you what are the real super women?\" I said \"Yup.\" And he said \"Were you a super woman?\" I said \"I must have been the New York Times said so.\" You know and they go \"Oh\" you know. So you take away that that oh my my I'm just just a little girl sitting here not causing any trouble and you just go \"Yeah. I was I was a Yale super woman still feeling pretty good.\" And what can they say?We did it. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1743.0,1894.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Do you feel like a pioneer? I know that's been a word that's been used a lot among your class. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1894.0,1900.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I think I did but I think that was because of my particular background. I my sense that many of the women probably including some of my roommates were just you know they've always been in coed schools and they knew they were good and they were willing to do it. My roommate Jamie who went from Vassar said came from Vasser said something very funny she said \"You know when your first year at Vassar and somebody says they're dating a Yale man or you meet a guy and he goes to Yale you think wow. But now you're here we're here and you know we're Yale.\" So not such a big deal. You know you're not so automatically impressed. Jamie's pretty darn impressive herself. So yeah I think I felt I think much more like you know I was a pioneer and that it was a good thing to do and that we had to prove that not just that we could perform academically because I don't think there really was a question about that but that it was not a waste of time. It was not a a wasting of resources. I was kind of cheered to hear Sam Chauncey say last night that they'd never really planned to like withdraw the experiment. I think I had a sense and I think many of us did that if it didn't work out you know they just let us graduate and you know and that would be that. So I certainly had the sense that we needed to prove not associate so much that we could perform academically but that we would make use of the education. There was a lot of discussion back then about you know we were we would have careers that were sort of comparable to the careers of women from the previous ten years let's say who tended you know to go to college but maybe go to library school or maybe get a master's in something but of a certain social class again you got married. When you did the reunions the the old guys always had these wonderful wives from Vasser, Smith, Mount Holyoke whatever and they were always very intelligent women very gracious women but they had mostly not had careers. And so there really was a sense that you know we would not make use of our education in the same way. I remember also there was a thing called the tuition postponement option. I don't know if anyone's mentioned that where instead of paying back your loans in a certain amount well a certain fixed interest rate you could borrow some money and you would pay a certain percentage of your household income after certain years and there was a view that this was they used to call it \"the Yale women's negative dowry\" because the assumption was that the Yale men would marry us and then they would be stuck with paying off our loans. So that you know no one knew what we were gonna be doing because we didn't know what was going to happen with other women. I mean all across the country women would graduate of my generation from coed schools and go to law school and go to business school and have careers and do stuff but I think Yale may have assumed that we wouldn't or perhaps we would not the men that were of the generation let's say of Kingman Brewster you know he had a very well educated wife from Vassar and she was a Vasser trustee but my mother her group from Smith right. They all married. They all did copious amounts of volunteer work. My mother would sometimes do substitute teaching but absolutely you were a homemaker and you know socially a social support to your husband. It was a very it was a very different career path. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=1900.0,2117.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"How did you make use of your education? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2117.0,2121.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Well I would say two things. First American studies you use everything because you've you know it's a little of everything. It's literature it's history it's art it's sort of so I use it all the time and as a law professor I find sounding like an old curmudgeon [mimicking old curmudgeon] these young people have no sense of history. They really don't. And so teaching law using and giving the history background is a very important thing. And but I went to Yale Law School. I then went to Yale grad school. I have an M.A. as well from the American Studies Department. And so having both those degrees helped me I practiced law for eight years representing people in mental institutions and juvenile institutions doing civil rights litigation on behalf of institutionalized populations. But I always taught as an adjunct a little bit here a little bit there. And finally in 1983 I took a full time teaching job at Loyola which is where I am now at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles and the Yale name opened the door for me. And being able to teach I used a lot of the history on the legal background. The joke is that Yale Law School tends to produce more law professors than anything else and it's true a lot of people my class we all became academics. But having the combination of teaching and real life law practice on behalf of the disenfranchised populations that I worked with has given me I think a real a real grounding that I could offer to my students. And I think I would try to pass on to the students some of the confidence that we got at Yale which is probably totally [laughing] totally false in some ways. But the assumption if you're at Yale is you're going to go on to do great things because you're from Yale. The assumption at Yale Law School is we're all going to go out and you know fix fix whatever needed doing end up at the Supreme Court and whatever. The students at Loyola are often quite as bright and quite as hardworking as we were at Yale but they don't have that same yes you can go do it. And so I've tried to really communicate that that you can be a legislator you can change law. You can be a judge. You can you know be a scholar. You can you can do it you don't have to accept the existing system. You can learn about it and then you can fix it. And communicating that confidence I think is an important part of what I've done as a teacher. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2121.0,2266.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That's wonderful. What does Yale mean to you? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2266.0,2268.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh my um I think I'm a totally Yalie in terms of the college and not so much in terms of of the law school. But I'm I'm proud of having been in the group you know. And I like to make the Harvard jokes. A lot of people on my faculty from Harvard Law School and I go \"Oh I'm really sorry I didn't get into Yale did ya?\". \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2268.0,2288.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[laughter] \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2288.0,2289.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know there's that that that kind of thing. I'm also I also remember this is a true story when I moved to California somebody said \"Oh you know come over to the house we're going to watch the big game.\" And I thought really you watch Yale- Harvard out here? Well I'm an idiot it was Berkeley-Stanford. And when you're down in Los Angeles it's UCLA-USC. But I you know had no clue. I'm sitting there \"Where's the marching band?\" You know. So in that sense I had I have this Yale Yaleness you know that I don't let go of. But it was a great opportunity. I am very grateful that I had it. I'm very grateful to the teachers who affirmed me and said \"Yep what you're doing is just fine you keep on doing it.\" Great. It was it was a huge difference. Plus coming from Yale enabled me to go to law school to pay my own way to do to do pretty much what I ever wanted. And yeah if you the name has opened up so many doors for me. I get a little frustrated because for years I've been an Alumni School Committee interviewer and I interview these wonderful wonderful wonderful students and they don't get it. And every now and then one does. But it's rare. And I know the process is terrible. I know the numbers are so limited so and and there is this aura you know that oh well you know if you get into Yale somehow you're it's like you've been you've been crowned you've been for life. So one of the things I tried to say although [unintelligible] did that for me I try to say to the students you know that I'm interviewing when I was young I got it fixed in my mind if I didn't get into a case it was Radcliffe my life was over you know and I didn't get it and my life wasn't over and I went to Washington University. I did well there. I made good friends. I got on the debate team. I came to New Havne. Yale was going coed. I applied. But I say you know if I had gone someplace else it would still have been okay. And I tried to say that to them \"If you get into Yale and Yale takes you and you want to go great. If they don't take you or they take you and you want to do something else. That's great.\" Not not to have that narrow sense that you know one slip or one not admission and your life you know veers off which I think a lot of students and their families have. And so I it's it's it may sound contradictory I mean Yale was a huge opportunity for me and made a huge difference in my life but it's not the only place those things could have happened. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2289.0,2449.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What are you hoping to get out of this weekend? \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2449.0,2452.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I'd really wanted to get to know more of the women actually because I've always come back for reunions. My husband is class of '71, Pierson College. I didn't know him then and we would not have probably hit it off back then. He was sports editor of The Yale Daily my god you know and other than knowing that the Big Game was Yale-Harvard I had no interest in that so that's a but so I've come back to other reunions is my point and I've always enjoyed it and enjoyed meeting people. But this was one just for the women and when I've come back to reunions before occasionally meeting other women whom I didn't know before or we vaguely recognize each other you know \"Hi there\" has been very meaningful. And so I thought with this one yes I'd really like to come and have the chance to meet more women. I'm not sure I've done some of that but because the we're so organized there's so many activities it's hard to do that. But yeah I wanted to come and I also wanted to do like this. All right we weren't storming the beaches of Normandy again you know we weren't being shot at but it was a big deal. It was a big deal and looking back you know it's always easy to say well it would've happened anyway. You know they would have gone coed and you know the world would get better and there's feminism and women you know had made careers and I mean we were part of a of a big change as Sam Chancey says correctly we were but I think it was important what we did. And there tends to be a tent... I think I see that for my law students too that they sort of assume that things are now the way they always were. You know so if I if I'm teaching family law and I talk about women married women not being able to get separate credit until 1974. If I talk about employment and before 1964 you could have you know \"Help Wanted Male.\" I talk about marriage laws and women's property rights and so on and they just they can't believe it. And I say \"Go home and ask your mother, your grandmother,\" and they'll come back and they'll go \"Oh yeah,\" you know. So there isn't there isn't that sense of history and I think rights can be lost very easily particularly if you don't have the sense that the way things are now didn't rest on the shoulders of lots of previous people and can also be lost. So I guess I was hope...I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing because it's a way of going back to that that time and seeing the distance that we've come but also seeing I think how how fragile those rights are. I mean we are we are a western country. We are a diverse country in terms of religion and in terms of of different states and different laws. So I think we're fairly safe here. But to be a woman in many other parts of the world or even now in some states you know in terms of reproductive rights it goes away very easily. And I think it's important to realize how how that we've come a long way baby. Right. But it's fragile. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2452.0,2650.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Thank you.\n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2650.0,2653.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You're welcome. \n\nInterviewer","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2653.0,2654.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"That was awesome. \n\nJan","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2654.0,2655.0"},{"id":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270/transcript/94083/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oh. [laughter]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://yalemssa.aviaryplatform.com/collections/3700/collection_resources/170370/file/309270#t=2655.0,2657.17299"}]}]}]}